The A Wing Test Pilot card I actually think is great. People have been complaining that Arvel needed a EPT since wave 2 (he is green leader, and the rest of green squad has it, and he should be able to outfit DD so he can force collisions). As for the new pilots, knowing that this exists can influence whether they think they should have 1 or 2. It's worded such that the prototype doesn't get an EPT, so you can't have a 15 point EPT carrier, which probably would be a bit OP.

To be fair, Black Squadron Pilot has an EPT and is 14 points. =)

[edit] It looks like FFG has updated the big promotional photo so that the Prototype Veteran cards now say A-Wing Test Pilot. But they did something else.

They moved the bottom row of cards up a bit so we can't see as much of the top row of cards! Look, this is what it looked like earlier today and yesterday:

[edit 2] It also looks like they changed the text of the PS5 B-Wing pilot. He had three lines of text for his ability and it began with the word "when," and now he has just two lines that begin with the word "you."

I go to sleep and this generates 5 more pages? Sheesh.

There is some really good stuff here. No doubt. But I don't see an imbalance. Was the Imperial Aces as crazy for the Interceptors as what the A-wing is getting, no. And really, outside good pilots, the B-wing isn't getting a whole lot. Are B-wings with Crew really going to displace Advanced Sensors? I'm also not too concerned about Chaardan completely eliminating Missiles from A-wings. I'm thinking tossing a Missile on the unique pilots will work better.

And seriously, why is no one talking about how Daredevil is now a valid option? So tossing it onto Tycho with Push the Limit.

* raises hand* I have! In another thread, I think now with the upgrades, it made it seem that Tycho can now be the rebel version of Vader and with the Daredevil option slapped on, it can be the rebel version of Lorrir (even though with PTL + Daredevil would require more room to work with).

The B-wing pilot's NAME clearly changed as well.

I go to sleep and this generates 5 more pages? Sheesh.

There is some really good stuff here. No doubt. But I don't see an imbalance. Was the Imperial Aces as crazy for the Interceptors as what the A-wing is getting, no. And really, outside good pilots, the B-wing isn't getting a whole lot. Are B-wings with Crew really going to displace Advanced Sensors? I'm also not too concerned about Chaardan completely eliminating Missiles from A-wings. I'm thinking tossing a Missile on the unique pilots will work better.

And seriously, why is no one talking about how Daredevil is now a valid option? So tossing it onto Tycho with Push the Limit.

* raises hand* I have! In another thread, I think now with the upgrades, it made it seem that Tycho can now be the rebel version of Vader and with the Daredevil option slapped on, it can be the rebel version of Lorrir (even though with PTL + Daredevil would require more room to work with).

Tycho and Jake now are basically interceptors. Tycho can now be upgraded with Push the Limit AND Expert Handling for the same cost as Tycho+PtL without the Chardaan Refit.

Jake+PtL can now focus, barrel roll for free, then boost with PtL. He's like a mash-up of Soontir and Turr, but is cheaper than both.

Now, neither of them will ever be in front arc. Biggest drawback is the reduced primary attack.

So what happens when an a wing is hit with munitions failure and you throw out the missle slot card. (Because the card type is a secondary weapon slot) and all of a sudden you are running an illegal 102 point squad in a 100 point game.

Munitions Failure makes you discard a secondary weapon. That is defined by an upgrade with the Attack: header - not the type of slot it takes. Munitions Failure will do nothing to a Chaardan Refit.

We also already have a response over on BGG that if something happens to make a chosen upgrade illegal in the game (such as a ship with Royal Guard Pilot having its PS reduced) it keeps the upgrades. So it wouldn't matter anyway.

I go to sleep and this generates 5 more pages? Sheesh.

There is some really good stuff here. No doubt. But I don't see an imbalance. Was the Imperial Aces as crazy for the Interceptors as what the A-wing is getting, no. And really, outside good pilots, the B-wing isn't getting a whole lot. Are B-wings with Crew really going to displace Advanced Sensors? I'm also not too concerned about Chaardan completely eliminating Missiles from A-wings. I'm thinking tossing a Missile on the unique pilots will work better.

And seriously, why is no one talking about how Daredevil is now a valid option? So tossing it onto Tycho with Push the Limit.

* raises hand* I have! In another thread, I think now with the upgrades, it made it seem that Tycho can now be the rebel version of Vader and with the Daredevil option slapped on, it can be the rebel version of Lorrir (even though with PTL + Daredevil would require more room to work with).

Tycho and Jake now are basically interceptors. Tycho can now be upgraded with Push the Limit AND Expert Handling for the same cost as Tycho+PtL without the Chardaan Refit.

Jake+PtL can now focus, barrel roll for free, then boost with PtL. He's like a mash-up of Soontir and Turr, but is cheaper than both.

Now, neither of them will ever be in front arc. Biggest drawback is the reduced primary attack.

You're right... they're basically the same thing as interceptors... geezh, I wish there was something that distinguished the two... OH WAIT... an interceptor has 3 attack! ****.

Edit: Interesting... I quoted and typed before you did your edit adding your last line... and it didn't show up in my reply box, but it did quote your edit...

Just because something effectively costs more, doesn't change the actual cost of them, you can still fit the same ships and upgrades in 100 points you could before.

Yes, you can still build exactly the same list as before. What has changed is what you can get in return for changes.

Say you have an A-wing missile build and think it's shy on ships. In a world that doesn't have Chaardan, if you wanted to throw a Z-95 in there you'd have to remove 3 missiles. With Chaardan, you remove two. Each of those missiles now cost you 6 points worth of other stuff in your build.

You're trying to compare the cost without Chaardan to the cost with Chaardan, but you can't do that. Yes, you can buy the same thing tomorrow as you can today, but other stuff has gotten cheaper, which changes the economics of the decision.

Take a silly and extreme case. FFG comes out tomorrow and says "You're all right, the TIE Advanced is overcosted, as of now the Storm Squadron Pilot only costs TWO POINTS!" Can I still build the same list tomorrow as I do today? Certainly. But my Academy Pilot is now the equivalent of six TIE Advanced, instead of 0.5 TIE Advanced.

In the end, the point system is just like money - it's a proxy for exchange of real goods. So long as you can get 6 points of benefit in exchange for removing that missile, it costs 6 points.

I'm sure it has been mentioned before, but you can't discount the fact that the PtL Green Squadron is probably the best bang for the buck missile carrier in the game to this point. You never want to bring a missile with out the ability to target lock and focus, and the green lets you do it for a total of 22 points. The green squadron has the potential to remain the premier missile carrier even if the Z-95 named pilots have an EPT because of the amount of green on the A-Wings dial, and the fact the A-Wing has boost as an action by default.

I don't see Chaardan refit making much difference to me in this regard as if I'm bringing an A-Wing, its a Green w/ PtL and a missile. Now, I can see using it on a blocking prototype and maybe somewhere else (arvel?), but I don't expect to get tons of use out of it, and I love A-Wings.

Just because something effectively costs more, doesn't change the actual cost of them, you can still fit the same ships and upgrades in 100 points you could before.

Yes, you can still build exactly the same list as before. What has changed is what you can get in return for changes.

Say you have an A-wing missile build and think it's shy on ships. In a world that doesn't have Chaardan, if you wanted to throw a Z-95 in there you'd have to remove 3 missiles. With Chaardan, you remove two. Each of those missiles now cost you 6 points worth of other stuff in your build.

You're trying to compare the cost without Chaardan to the cost with Chaardan, but you can't do that. Yes, you can buy the same thing tomorrow as you can today, but other stuff has gotten cheaper, which changes the economics of the decision.

Take a silly and extreme case. FFG comes out tomorrow and says "You're all right, the TIE Advanced is overcosted, as of now the Storm Squadron Pilot only costs TWO POINTS!" Can I still build the same list tomorrow as I do today? Certainly. But my Academy Pilot is now the equivalent of six TIE Advanced, instead of 0.5 TIE Advanced.

In the end, the point system is just like money - it's a proxy for exchange of real goods. So long as you can get 6 points of benefit in exchange for removing that missile, it costs 6 points.

What you're kind of getting into is a glass half full/half empty debate. It really just depends on what you focus on as a positive/negative.

I wonder if a 5 ship ptl A-Wing swarm has a chance against a 7 tie-swarm with howlrunner. You really need to make your maneuvrability count. Might be a lot of fun to fly though.

Also Jake and Tycho will be great fun to fly. But your offense might lack a lot. You really need to get those range 1 shots.

The A Wing Test Pilot card I actually think is great. People have been complaining that Arvel needed a EPT since wave 2 (he is green leader, and the rest of green squad has it, and he should be able to outfit DD so he can force collisions). As for the new pilots, knowing that this exists can influence whether they think they should have 1 or 2. It's worded such that the prototype doesn't get an EPT, so you can't have a 15 point EPT carrier, which probably would be a bit OP.

To be fair, Black Squadron Pilot has an EPT and is 14 points. =)

[edit] It looks like FFG has updated the big promotional photo so that the Prototype Veteran cards now say A-Wing Test Pilot. But they did something else.

They moved the bottom row of cards up a bit so we can't see as much of the top row of cards! Look, this is what it looked like earlier today and yesterday:

[edit 2] It also looks like they changed the text of the PS5 B-Wing pilot. He had three lines of text for his ability and it began with the word "when," and now he has just two lines that begin with the word "you."

Man, I gotta feel bad for FFG a bit. Every change gets caught and dissected. "Damnit, somebody already highlighted the change we made 3 minutes ago." Poor guys can't catch a break.

I think it'll all work out. Thanks FFG!

... though, um, I did like the Prototype Veteran title more than the new A-wing Test Pilot. Just saying. It had synergy with the Prototype pilot and such. But good job FFG!

Consider enhanced scopes with intelligence agent. With EU on a B-Wing. Or with APL and EU on a colorless supernova goat.

Chardaan could read "A-Wing or TIE Advanced only". Call that a missed opportunity.

Crew on a B-Wing? That gives a lot of interesting options.

Nien Numb. Chewbacca. C-3P0. Gunner. Gunner+FCS. Recon Specialist+Deadeye. Merc Copilot on Ten. Weapons Engineer+FCS.

The imperials get enhanced scopes and the new missile.

Chardaan could read "A-Wing or TIE Advanced only". Call that a missed opportunity.

The Chardaan Yards were a Rebel/New Republic facility, so they probably didn't refit a lot of TIE Advanced.

Crew on a B-Wing? That gives a lot of interesting options.

Nien Numb. Chewbacca. C-3P0. Gunner. Gunner+FCS. Recon Specialist+Deadeye. Merc Copilot on Ten. Weapons Engineer+FCS.

I'm heavily inclined to wait on this one until we know the cost of the +crew upgrade. If it's free, it's going to be... well, I don't want it to be free. If it's 1 point, then the cheaper guys (Intelligence Agent, etc.) look a lot better to me than a Gunner.

The imperials get enhanced scopes and the new missile.

Pretty slim pickings, but then all the Rebellion got out of Imperial Aces is Opportunist. I'm really excited about that missile...

What you're kind of getting into is a glass half full/half empty debate. It really just depends on what you focus on as a positive/negative.

It really doesn't, honestly.

It's pretty basic economics surrounding opportunity cost considerations. It's actually a purely empirical thing.

What you're kind of getting into is a glass half full/half empty debate. It really just depends on what you focus on as a positive/negative.

It really doesn't, honestly.

It's pretty basic economics surrounding opportunity cost considerations. It's actually a purely empirical thing.

Since it's worth emphasizing after some of our recent disagreements--you're totally right here. The cost of equipping any missile on an A-wing will effectively be 2 points higher once Rebel Aces is released.

What you're kind of getting into is a glass half full/half empty debate. It really just depends on what you focus on as a positive/negative.

It really doesn't, honestly.

It's pretty basic economics surrounding opportunity cost considerations. It's actually a purely empirical thing.

Since it's worth emphasizing after some of our recent disagreements--you're totally right here. The cost of equipping any missile on an A-wing will effectively be 2 points higher once Rebel Aces is released.

Doesn't change the fact that a PtL Green w/ Concussion missile is super solid at 26 points.

What you're kind of getting into is a glass half full/half empty debate. It really just depends on what you focus on as a positive/negative.

It really doesn't, honestly.

It's pretty basic economics surrounding opportunity cost considerations. It's actually a purely empirical thing.

Then you shouldn't simplify it so much and focus on just the A-Wing. Concussion missiles in fact costs 4 points. If they were limited to only the A-Wing the effective cost, 6, would be much more appropriate. However, the Tie Advanced, upcoming Z-95 and several other ships can take them. Additionally it throws out other instances where some people may choose to not take the point reduction, an example was on this forum awhile ago, someone was talking about taking a useless target lock as a mod for a ship so he'd hit 100 points because he really did not want initiative. Its only empirical if you focus on soley on the A-Wing which in itself illustrates one's personal perspective.

looks like my A-wing swarm is getting a nice boost! =)

What you're kind of getting into is a glass half full/half empty debate. It really just depends on what you focus on as a positive/negative.

It really doesn't, honestly.

It's pretty basic economics surrounding opportunity cost considerations. It's actually a purely empirical thing.

Then you shouldn't simplify it so much and focus on just the A-Wing. Concussion missiles in fact costs 4 points. If they were limited to only the A-Wing the effective cost, 6, would be much more appropriate. However, the Tie Advanced, upcoming Z-95 and several other ships can take them. Additionally it throws out other instances where some people may choose to not take the point reduction, an example was on this forum awhile ago, someone was talking about taking a useless target lock as a mod for a ship so he'd hit 100 points because he really did not want initiative. Its only empirical if you focus on soley on the A-Wing which in itself illustrates one's personal perspective.

Maybe you should go back to the beginning of the discussion, because the only point in contention was what it cost to equip a missile on an A-wing .

Yes, it still costs the same to put that missile on the Falcon, or a Headhunter. Nobody ever claimed differently. This entire thread was in the context of A-wings once Rebel Aces hits. If you want to argue that a Concussion Missile on a Headhunter costs 4 points, feel free to start a new thread - I doubt you'll get much in the way of dispute.

And I'll say the same thing here that I said when that example was originally proposed - if the best example you can come up with is someone intentionally under-pointing their squad without wanting to get initiative, you lose this debate. Are there such cases? Possibly, but they're so utterly, vanishingly rare they're not even worth considering.

What you're kind of getting into is a glass half full/half empty debate. It really just depends on what you focus on as a positive/negative.

It really doesn't, honestly.

It's pretty basic economics surrounding opportunity cost considerations. It's actually a purely empirical thing.

Since it's worth emphasizing after some of our recent disagreements--you're totally right here. The cost of equipping any missile on an A-wing will effectively be 2 points higher once Rebel Aces is released.

Doesn't change the fact that a PtL Green w/ Concussion missile is super solid at 26 points.

Actually, it can. Let me demonstrate. Today, a squad of 4 Blues w/ AdvS is a decent way to spend 100 points. So is a squad of 4 X wings with PT. If all of a sudden, FFG released an R2 unit that reduced the cost of that unit by 11, the Rookie Pilot would now be 10 points. You can field 10 of those in a squad for 100 points. All of a sudden, those 4 blue squadrons are no longer considered a good squad.

So while we're dealing on a smaller scale, reducing the cost of the base A wing by 2 points does not mean that an old build with a missile on the A wing is still a good build.

I go to sleep and this generates 5 more pages? Sheesh.

There is some really good stuff here. No doubt. But I don't see an imbalance. Was the Imperial Aces as crazy for the Interceptors as what the A-wing is getting, no. And really, outside good pilots, the B-wing isn't getting a whole lot. Are B-wings with Crew really going to displace Advanced Sensors? I'm also not too concerned about Chaardan completely eliminating Missiles from A-wings. I'm thinking tossing a Missile on the unique pilots will work better.

And seriously, why is no one talking about how Daredevil is now a valid option? So tossing it onto Tycho with Push the Limit.

I did say it earlier

Yes, you can buy the same thing tomorrow as you can today, but other stuff has gotten cheaper, which changes the economics of the decision.

Yes I agree. But that doesn't mean we lost options. Clearly you have to consider if you want missiles or not. The price of A-Wings with missiles haven't really changed, you just now have a non-missile option that's cheaper.

So when making lists with A-Wings the first thing to decide is missile or no missile, once you decide that it does change the cost of thing. But that does not mean we lost options which was my whole point. Because if you want A-Wings with missiles, because they work good for you, the refit doesn't really change anything.

Again my whole point is that options have not been removed, they've been increased. Just because going without missiles is even cheaper then before doesn't mean missiles on A-Wings are less effective then before.

So while we're dealing on a smaller scale, reducing the cost of the base A wing by 2 points does not mean that an old build with a missile on the A wing is still a good build.

Yes it does. Because the tactics you use when you have A-Wings loaded with missiles are different then if you don't. The difference in 4 to 6 points isn't going to allow you to put a whole extra ship. Even if you use 4 A's with the refit you still lack enough points to put in a 5th ship, so the basic lists have not changed that drastically.

A-Wings with missiles are still A-Wings with Missiles.

4 GSP with PtL and the Refit isn't a drastically different list then 4 GSP with PtL, because you only have 8 more points to play with, which means at best a 1 or 2 point EPT on each.

So while we're dealing on a smaller scale, reducing the cost of the base A wing by 2 points does not mean that an old build with a missile on the A wing is still a good build.

Ok, so I want to build a rebel Alpha Strike list. PtL Green Squadrons and Z-95s are going to be the choices, and without PtL the Z-95 platform is sub optimal (Need a squad leader to get the shot off). The fact that I can bring an A-Wing for 2 points less without the missile means nothing, since the 20 point PtL A-Wing has no early game punch. I don't see anything that has changed this equation...