So what happens when an a wing is hit with munitions failure and you throw out the missle slot card. (Because the card type is a secondary weapon slot) and all of a sudden you are running an illegal 102 point squad in a 100 point game.

So what happens when an a wing is hit with munitions failure and you throw out the missle slot card. (Because the card type is a secondary weapon slot) and all of a sudden you are running an illegal 102 point squad in a 100 point game.

automatic DQ from the tourney =P

the ultimate auto win!

Only cards with the Header: 'Attack:' are considered secondary weapons.

That is why a seismic charge or a proton bomb cannot be discarded by 'munitions failure'. Thus, it is likely that Chardaan refit will not be discarded because it is not considered a 'secondary weapon'.

So what happens when an a wing is hit with munitions failure and you throw out the missle slot card. (Because the card type is a secondary weapon slot) and all of a sudden you are running an illegal 102 point squad in a 100 point game.

Munitions failure says "secondary weapon upgrade cards" Even though Chardaan refit uses the missile slot, I don't think it qualifies as a secondary weapon. - Pg 19 of the rulebook describes secondary weapons as having the attack header - and an attack value and range - etc. - which don't describe the refit.

Ninja'd....

Yes. The argument is that doing the refit this way was a poor way to handle balance. Instead of increasing options by making the A-Wing more appealing, they drastically reduced the options by making missiles all but unplayable on the A-Wing now.

If the ship was overcosted, they should have done an errata to fix it. Or, failing that, found a way to reduce cost or increase value without breaking an entire line of upgrades.

This is a terrible way to do it.

Edit: Arguing card availability is irrelevant. Casual players won't need every copy of the card and competitive tournament players will get every card they need regardless of cost. The problem is that it's a bad card. Making it a rare bad card doesn't make the issue go away...

What you said in you edit is so obvious that I can't understand why people are saying that the refit won't have an impact on the game. The simple fact of the matter is that A-Wings just lost their missile icon in exchange for a two point decrease in ship cost. But, they can still buy missiles at a 2 point tax.

I have been waiting for some kind of negative cost card ever since I realized that certain ships have untapped (and underwhelming) potential. This goes for the A-Wing's missile icon, Slave I's bomb icon, ect. I immediately thought, "Wouldn't it be cool if I could sell those unused icons?" I then immediately realized that what someone, like myself, who is untrained and unexperienced in game design think would be 'cool' is usually an awful idea.

The existence of icons on a ship encourages players to use them. It makes experiences playing both with or against those ships vary and keeps the game interesting. Throwing on an ad hoc 'take away some ok that you are not using in exchange for something great that you will certainly use' makes foran obvious decision.

I understand the need to sell kits and cards, but rebalancing the A-Wing should have been accomplished through a two sentence post on the X-Wing Miniatures homepage. Some of this expansion smells Games Workshop-ish - and that leads to the dark side.

The funny thing is if ffg originally had the awing costed at 2 points less and gave it a card that provided a missle slot for 2 more points people would say they gave the awing more options. Instead you have an awing that costs 2 points more and removes the missle slot for a 2 point reduction and they claim it limits options. When it's exactly the same thing.

I think the real point is ffg felt an awing w a missle slot and costing 2 points less and double ept would of been broken as it's currently pretty powerful without the missle slot. Are a wings w missles going to be rare to see in tournaments? Probably but then again your not going to find any other ship in game with the actions maneuverability and dual epts and ability to fire a missle like the awing either. You may find z95 don't really have a lot of access to epts quite like an awing pilot does.

With respect to the "How much do missiles cost on the A-wing now?" question, Buhallin and AndOne are correct in an important sense: a Prototype with a Concussion Missile costs 21, while a Prototype without a missile effectively costs 15. That means the Concussion Missile now has an effective cost of 6.

But they're also wrong in an important sense, because Green Squadron + Push the Limit + Concussion cost 26 before Rebel Aces was announced, and that combo still costs 26. If you believe that ship was a balanced part of a competitive list before Rebel Aces, then there's no reason to stop running it; it didn't suddenly get 2 points more expensive.

To me, the -2 recognizes a couple of things: first, that FFG originally underestimated (during the design of Wave 1 and Wave 2) the marginal change in effectiveness when you transition between 2 Attack and 3 Attack. But second, and perhaps more importantly, the value of ordnance is in flux.

In Wave 1, the cheapest ordnance carrier was the Y-wing, and ordnance ended up not being all that valuable. In Wave 2, the cheapest ordnance carrier became the A-wing, and ordnance still didn't look that useful. But it looked at that point to some of us math people as if the A-wing was paying a cost for access to missiles--that is, that FFG was worried about crossing a threshold for missile boats that were "too cheap".

Basically, I think a 16-point A-wing would have meant we could run 5 Prototype+Concussion Missile, so we got a 17-point A-wing instead.

But the TIE Bomber and Z-95 clearly indicate that the designers are no longer afraid of lists with 5 missiles run en masse , so there's no reason for the A-wing to keep that 1-point tax. Combining the two--overestimating the effectiveness of 2 Attack, and overestimating the effectiveness of missiles--means the A-wing could stand to trim a couple of points.

But how do you do that? They don't like errata, apparently, so that's out. The Prototype Veteran is a title, so if you want A-wings to get that adjustment too, you're left with modifications. But the A-wing also really likes Hull Upgrade or Stealth Device, too, and you don't want to shut those out. So instead you make use of their missile slot--the one that's often not used, because people don't like missiles that well anyway--to create that refund on their base price. And as a bonus, you get to remove any issues that might be caused by doubling up EPTs on a missile carrier--because if you want to do that, you can't also get your "tax refund".

So yes, I think the 2-point adjustment for the A-wing is a good idea, and I actually think it's an elegant piece of design to do it via the missile slot. And while I think that leaves A-wings hanging out to dry as missile carriers, I'm pinning my hopes on two things:

(1) Green Squadron is still the cheapest missile carrier with an EPT, and now it's also the cheapest missile carrier with two EPTs. If someone can't find a way to abuse that even moderately, then we're not the community I think we are. Again--Green+Concussion isn't any more expensive than it was before with respect to your overall list budget , and now it has an extra upgrade slot to play with.

(2) The Aces pack includes a card that looks like "Proton Rockets", and that card looks like a missile. And if it is, then that missile was designed with the Chardaan Refit in mind--so we'll just have to wait and see what it is and whether it's worth running even given the increased opportunity cost.

I'm not used to the rules yet so I can't really comment on the brief glimpses of cards. Personally, I like to play games with something before I decide whether it's good or bad. I'd never judge something that isn't even released on the basis of a few pictures.

Obviously your new here. Welcome.

just wondering what people think is better because to me it seems like EPT is better than a modification. people were saying earlier about imperial aces that putting an extra modification would just make it more costly when it dies, but it seems that tycho + veteran prototype or whatever its called + dare devil and Ptl = very sharp turning A-wing that can do almost a full circle. 1 sharp + daredevil 1 sharp + Ptl and a boost

Really excited for this FFG. Nice job. I think the refit card for the A-wing is great. I'd rather have 2 EPTs than a missile any day on an a-wing.

This is good stuff.

Funny that you mention ravn's accounting, because I actually am an accountant. Maybe that's why this bothers me. A lot.

To be honest, I'm really excited about this set, and any new products are good news for the game as a whole as far as I'm concerned. This is just the latest card of a long line that is terribly balanced that makes me think that FFG either has children designing their games or that they do not do thorough play testing at all.

Because this is a game where you can buy the exact cards you need, every card should be decent. This isn't MtG where there is a legitimate reason to make crappy filler commons. With that being said, cards like Arvel, Expose, and Chaardan Refit shouldn't exist.

That doesn't diminish my excitement for the new stuff in the least.

Edit:

And with that I think I'm done trying to argue logic (read: basic economics) on the internet for today. Maybe tomorrow.

But they're also wrong in an important sense, because Green Squadron + Push the Limit + Concussion cost 26 before Rebel Aces was announced, and that combo still costs 26.

Agree. Yes conc missiles now effectively cost 6 points for A-Wings, because there is simply no reason at all not to take the refit. Effectively reducing the cost of the A-Wing by 2 points.

But what it does not do is limit the options you have for A-Wing lists. That's simply silly to say, because I can still run the same A-Wing squad for 100 points that I always did. If I could win with that list before I can win with it after Rebel Aces come out.

This does nothing to limit options, it only increases them. Just because something effectively costs more, doesn't change the actual cost of them, you can still fit the same ships and upgrades in 100 points you could before.

That's the problem with the argument AndOne is making. Effective cost and real cost are not the same thing, but that's what AndOne seems to be trying to say, because that's the only way you can really see options being limited.

More options - I can run the lists I run now, and with the refit add in more upgrades or ships.

Less options - I can't run the lists I do now, only lists based on the new effective cost.

The less options isn't true, so simple logic proves that at least part of AndOne's argument is false.

Also, Jake is not at all the same thing as Turr, Jake lets you do a free boost or barrel roll when you take a focus action. So effectively giving you a form of a free PtL. Turr lets you do it after you attack. How anyone can equate the two is beyond me. What Turr does is a much better tactical option, because you can get into R1, attack for 4 dice, then boost out of the arc of what ever you just shot, or out of the arc of a different ship.

I want to know more about the Defender and the Phantom

Funny that you mention ravn's accounting, because I actually am an accountant. Maybe that's why this bothers me. A lot.

To be honest, I'm really excited about this set, and any new products are good news for the game as a whole as far as I'm concerned. This is just the latest card of a long line that is terribly balanced that makes me think that FFG either has children designing their games or that they do not do thorough play testing at all.

Because this is a game where you can buy the exact cards you need, every card should be decent. This isn't MtG where there is a legitimate reason to make crappy filler commons. With that being said, cards like Arvel, Expose, and Chaardan Refit shouldn't exist.

That doesn't diminish my excitement for the new stuff in the least.

Edit:

And with that I think I'm done trying to argue logic (read: basic economics) on the internet for today. Maybe tomorrow.

That's not arguing logic. That's just slinging insults.

I agree. This is probably one of the most balanced games I have ever played. The designers have done an outstanding job (ship after ship after ship) offering new options and platforms without terribly affecting the balance. But along comes "SUPER CPA" to inform us that the designers are children and don't play test their product. Something tells me he is wrong about this. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that FFG probably knows what their doing here. I know, I'm probably totally bat poop crazy, but FFG seems to have done a REALLY, REALLY good job so far, so SLAP MY ASS AND CALL ME SALLY but I don't think the sky is gonna fall quite yet

Hey these look great. I like the paint schemes and I love what we have seen so far. My rebel lists will now look great....in 2020 when this pack is released.

So here's the way I see this discussion developing:

X-wing Community: "A-wings are OK, but cost a couple points too much. Also, no one wants to play with missiles, because they are also too costly."

FFG: "Hmmm...I guess you're right. How about a card that makes the A-wing cheaper, and doesn't take up the title, mod, or EPT slot, but rather that missile slot you were complaining about?"

X-wing Community: "WTF!? Were you even listening? We said we wanted CHEAPER A-wings and we don't use missiles on A-wings!!"

FFG: "Uh..."

X-wing Community: "Obviously these things are OP and were not playtested. QED."

So I think Jake Farrell can essentially get six actions in a single turn. (Apologies if someone's been over this and I missed it.)

• Have Dutch (who should have R2-D6 so he can have Veteran Instincts so his pilot skill is higher than Farrell's) give Farrell a target lock .
• After Farrell moves, he takes his action — he focuses , which triggers his ability. We'll have him do a boost .
• Then we use Push the Limit on Farrell, allowing him to evade .
• At the start of the combat phase, have Kyle Katarn give a focus token to Farrell.
• This triggers Farrell's ability. We'll have him do a barrel roll .

At this point, Farrell has boosted and barrel rolled in the turn, and by the time he can attack, he has a target lock, an evade token and two focus tokens available for him to use. Madness.

So I think Jake Farrell can essentially get six actions in a single turn. (Apologies if someone's been over this and I missed it.)

• Have Garven (who should have R2-D6 so he can have Veteran Instincts so his pilot skill is higher than Farrell's) give Farrell a target lock .
• After Farrell moves, he takes his action — he focuses , which triggers his ability. We'll have him do a boost .
• Then we use Push the Limit on Farrell, allowing him to evade .
• At the start of the combat phase, have Kyle Katarn give a focus token to Farrell.
• This triggers Farrell's ability. We'll have him do a barrel roll .

At this point, Farrell has boosted and barrel rolled in the turn, and by the time he can attack, he has a target lock, an evade token and two focus tokens available for him to use. Madness.

The

So here's the way I see this discussion developing:

X-wing Community: "A-wings are OK, but cost a couple points too much. Also, no one wants to play with missiles, because they are also too costly."

FFG: "Hmmm...I guess you're right. How about a card that makes the A-wing cheaper, and doesn't take up the title, mod, or EPT slot, but rather that missile slot you were complaining about?"

X-wing Community: "WTF!? Were you even listening? We said we wanted CHEAPER A-wings and we don't use missiles on A-wings!!"

FFG: "Uh..."

X-wing Community: "Obviously these things are OP and were not playtested. QED."

The Rebel X-Wing community seems to be happy with OP rebel stuff ...

I'm really looking forward to face Keyan Farlander as an opponent. He will be at least 29+3+3 = 35 points, often even more. Love to shoot that 1 defense plane out of the sky and own the meagre rest of his squadron.

Sure he dishes out loads of damage. But so does Wedge, Han, any HLC ship or any combo that lets a 3 dice attack ship have TL + Focus. That's not really hard to get as Rebels anyway. Also the X-, and Y-Wings get some very cool pilots and upgrades through the transport expansion, that will have much more impact on the game than Keyan.

Ten Numb with Markmanship is devastating, especially against the dominant Tie-Fighter. And still no one plays him, because he is just too squishy for the points. Same problem as Keyan will have. Sure you might add a crew member to help him out, but that's even more points on a single ship. I'm pretty sure Dagger + Adv is still better point for point.

So cool down and enjoy your new A-Wings!

I do agree with Vorpal Sword that -2 via missile slot is an elegant and good idea, but for me it is almost the only good thing Ive seen so far on this announcement. And I play both sides, dont let my avatar fool you.

On the other hand regarding Starkillers post I must admit I dont want to see Phantoms or Defenders to be same sort of frustrating 'super' upgrades although it would be probably needed to be for balance's sake. And the worst thing is that if their pilots are cooperative like rebel theme is. - surely that would help in competitive play, but at least for me it would be so lame.

Just speculating aloud on the last chapter.

The

So here's the way I see this discussion developing:

X-wing Community: "A-wings are OK, but cost a couple points too much. Also, no one wants to play with missiles, because they are also too costly."

FFG: "Hmmm...I guess you're right. How about a card that makes the A-wing cheaper, and doesn't take up the title, mod, or EPT slot, but rather that missile slot you were complaining about?"

X-wing Community: "WTF!? Were you even listening? We said we wanted CHEAPER A-wings and we don't use missiles on A-wings!!"

FFG: "Uh..."

X-wing Community: "Obviously these things are OP and were not playtested. QED."

The Rebel X-Wing community seems to be happy with OP rebel stuff ...

I know you are speaking somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but that's not really true. A balanced game is a fun game, and one OP side is not fun for either player.

My two pence. I love the a wing as is ( as people have said I don't use missiles ) making it cheaper for the slot I don't use is a great idea. As has been mentioned it should happen to the Advanced. I don't think any of these card will break anything ( except the crew slot on the b-wing ). Not sure that the B-wing needed any more stuff. I really think that the Y-wing should have got the love, maybe with the same sort of things as they put on the B-wing. Anyway.... Woooooopie more A-wing goodies!!

So I think Jake Farrell can essentially get six actions in a single turn. (Apologies if someone's been over this and I missed it.)

• Have Garven (who should have R2-D6 so he can have Veteran Instincts so his pilot skill is higher than Farrell's) give Farrell a target lock .
• After Farrell moves, he takes his action — he focuses , which triggers his ability. We'll have him do a boost .
• Then we use Push the Limit on Farrell, allowing him to evade .
• At the start of the combat phase, have Kyle Katarn give a focus token to Farrell.
• This triggers Farrell's ability. We'll have him do a barrel roll .

At this point, Farrell has boosted and barrel rolled in the turn, and by the time he can attack, he has a target lock, an evade token and two focus tokens available for him to use. Madness.

Do you mean Dutch gives a TL?

...I might have?... -_-"

I'll edit

You know what would be silly and amazing. If when FFG prints this Chaardan refit says Awing or Tie Advanced only, and they showed us an earlier version to mess with us. Thoughts?