Prototype Pilot - no upgrades: 17 Points

Prototype Pilot - Chaardan refit: 15 points

These ships are exactly the same in-game so there is absolutely zero reason to ever take a naked Prototype ever again because the alternative is 2 points cheaper for the same exact ship.

Now we look at the following:

Prototype Pilot - Chaardan Refit: 15 points

Prototype Pilot - Concussion Missile: 21 points

The sole difference between these two ships in game is that one has a concussion missile. The difference in points is 6. This means that you pay 6 points and the only benefit is a concussion missile. That means the missile costs 6 points. Rendering it unplayable without a seriously specific reason to bring one.

This.

Ignoring the cost savings of the Chaardan is like saying PtL on Dutch costs 3 points with R5-D6. No, it doesn't - it costs 4 points. You cannot take PtL on Dutch without paying that extra point.

Similarly, you cannot take a missile on an A-wing without giving up the Chaardan, which costs you two points.

You can argue that you don't HAVE to take it, but that's honestly just silly. No A-wing should ever hit the table without something in the missile slot ever again, and switching from one to the other has a net cost of 6 (or 7) points.

I'm not getting you here... ... ... so it's preferable not to have the Chaardan refit because that makes the discrepancy between having a missile and not having a missile even more? Is this what the argument is about?

I'm not getting you here... ... ... so it's preferable not to have the Chaardan refit because that makes the discrepancy between having a missile and not having a missile even more? Is this what the argument is about?

No. The question is what it costs to equip a missile.

If you want to put a Concussion Missile (for example) on an A-wing, it effectively costs you 6 points to do so. Some people seem to want to ignore the savings you're giving up in the process and still call it 4 points, but that ignores what would otherwise be a guaranteed savings.

I felt a great disturbance in my bank savings account, as if thousands of dollars suddenly cried out in terror, and then were ring fenced.

Good year for X-Wing I see, though still waiting for Imperial Aces here. Keyan Farlander's ability is great I may have to defect to the Rebellion. Hard to see in the images and I'm sorry if it's already been covered but the PS 5 B-wing may be Palso Thern http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Unidentified_B-wing_pilots_(Endor ) I can make out a 'P' and 'a'. There also seems to be proton rockets maybe.

Good job FFG.

What you're saying is that everyone will always have enough Chaardan Refit cards to make every A-wing 15 points - I don't see that happening, I have 4 a-wings now, i'll buy 1 , maybe 2 rebel aces (cause I like the a-wing repaint) that gives me what - 2 or 4 chaardan refits? say I buy 1, and have 5 a-wings, 2 of them can have the refit, not all 5.

Autoinclude on A-wings without missiles, yes, but without enough of them for your a-wings, it can't be an autoinclude on all of them.

Other point being - Sure, you're Missiles comparitively cost 6 now between the Refit a-wing and the Concussion missile A-wings, but it's not making us pay any more than we used to pay for the missile. The cost of my green deadeye concussion missile A-wing, doesn't suddenly become more than it used to be, and the cost doesn't suddenly magically transfer to the missile slot because of Refit.

Yes. The argument is that doing the refit this way was a poor way to handle balance. Instead of increasing options by making the A-Wing more appealing, they drastically reduced the options by making missiles all but unplayable on the A-Wing now.

If the ship was overcosted, they should have done an errata to fix it. Or, failing that, found a way to reduce cost or increase value without breaking an entire line of upgrades.

This is a terrible way to do it.

Edit: Arguing card availability is irrelevant. Casual players won't need every copy of the card and competitive tournament players will get every card they need regardless of cost. The problem is that it's a bad card. Making it a rare bad card doesn't make the issue go away...

I agree with Ravncat, the refit is just another option, it just widens the discrepancy between having a missile vs having no missile and not paying more.

In the past the A-wing was used as a filler and in some cases with no missiles (with missiles right now costing 4 or so), so this makes the A-wing even more cost effective.

Yes. The argument is that doing the refit this way was a poor way to handle balance. Instead of increasing options by making the A-Wing more appealing, they drastically reduced the options by making missiles all but unplayable on the A-Wing now.

This is what i'm referring to, I don't see this as making missiles unplayable - they've been quite playable on a-wings at the current cost - being able to make the non missile version cheaper doesn't suddenly invalidate missiles on a-wings. I feel like people are crying the sky is falling because they've increased the options of the a-wing by saying "If you want to give up your missile slot, you can make the ship cheaper and give yourself more list building space"

Yes. The argument is that doing the refit this way was a poor way to handle balance. Instead of increasing options by making the A-Wing more appealing, they drastically reduced the options by making missiles all but unplayable on the A-Wing now.

If the ship was overcosted, they should have done an errata to fix it. Or, failing that, found a way to reduce cost or increase value without breaking an entire line of upgrades.

This is a terrible way to do it.

Edit: Arguing card availability is irrelevant. Casual players won't need every copy of the card and competitive tournament players will get every card they need regardless of cost. The problem is that it's a bad card. Making it a rare bad card doesn't make the issue go away...

I just see that Fantasy Flight is giving the A-wing more options and not "fixing" its "over costed" values.

Two evade tokens in the pack, yet only the Awing can take that action. Maybe something to do with Jan or Kyles ability as crew?

Two evade tokens in the pack, yet only the Awing can take that action. Maybe something to do with Jan or Kyles ability as crew?

Oh yea, the spoilers will be interesting, look at how this spoiler has us going on for pages... ha ha.

Giving a naked A-Wing a free 2 point cost reduction is not "giving it more options", it is making it two points cheaper. Hopefully this means that was two points overcosted to begin with. Otherwise it is now two points under costed.

Please note that I said 'naked' above.

This is where we differed in opinion, I find that the A-wing is where it should be costed.

Compared to the Tie fighter (12 points), you upgrade the tie fighter with a shield and 1 of its hulls to a shield, it'll be 17 points.

So a prototype at 17 points, with missile option, and better dial is quiet efficient in points.

Weird.

Not mentioning wave 4, we have:

Rebel Transport + X-Wing with X-Wing pilot(s)

Tantive IV + X-Wing with X-Wing Pilot(s)

and now Rebel Aces with A-Wing Pilots + B-Wing Pilots.

Vs.

Imperial Aces with Tie Intercepter pilots.

Seem a bit off balance to anyone else? I mean, it's cool that they are releasing announcing lots of new stuff, but... I wouldn't mind some more Imperial stuff... even if it is just more pilots for the Imperial ships we already have.

... this is more like THE MIGHTY REBELLION is hunting those hiding Imperial fleet down ... With luck, the Empire survives a few weeks more ...

The fact that it's a missile slot card also allows for some really nice options - I can now give my A-wing a hull upgrade or stealth for "1" point - so if you look at it as boosting the cost of a missile, you can just as easily look at it as reducing the cost of an EPT or a Modification...

Hrm - Given the add an EPT upgrade - we can do some cool things with the refit, that we may not have considered doing at the higher cost - Consider that Arvel + Daredevil + Refit + Prototype veteran only adds 1 to his overall cost, that's pretty reasonable for Arvel. When taken in this context, I think that it certainly does add options.

You Rebel players should be prepared to encounter even more Rebel players as opponents in future.

This won't make your lives better on turneys

What you're saying is that everyone will always have enough Chaardan Refit cards to make every A-wing 15 points - I don't see that happening, I have 4 a-wings now, i'll buy 1 , maybe 2 rebel aces (cause I like the a-wing repaint) that gives me what - 2 or 4 chaardan refits? say I buy 1, and have 5 a-wings, 2 of them can have the refit, not all 5.

Autoinclude on A-wings without missiles, yes, but without enough of them for your a-wings, it can't be an autoinclude on all of them.

Other point being - Sure, you're Missiles comparitively cost 6 now between the Refit a-wing and the Concussion missile A-wings, but it's not making us pay any more than we used to pay for the missile. The cost of my green deadeye concussion missile A-wing, doesn't suddenly become more than it used to be, and the cost doesn't suddenly magically transfer to the missile slot because of Refit.

I sincerely hope you don't do your own accounting

Yes, there will be a limit based on the number of cards you own. That's only going to affect people who try and swarm them. And are you really suggesting that the dollar cost to acquire the cards should be a balancing factor in the game?

You're right - the cost of your Green with a Concussion did not go up. But if you take that Concussion off, you save six points. If you put it back on, it costs you six points. Your ship may stay at 24 points, but the cost of the alternative has gone down.

Or, put another way, a Prototype without a missile is 15 points. A Prototype with a missile is 21 points. Is putting that missile on worth 6 points? Because that's what it's costing you.

At two points less in terms of cost I cannot see the argument of the options for the A-Wing being reduced. Perhaps look at the two points as an overall squad saving rather than to the specific a-wing you put the refit on. There are 2 more list building points, that can open up swarms of A and Z95s. Yes you sacrifice missiles but to be honest I find missiles an expensive luxury, 4 points for a one shot weapon that if you miss (as I often seem to) is a waste of 4 points that could have been used elsewhere to beef up reusable weapons and systems.

The fact that it's a missile slot card also allows for some really nice options - I can now give my A-wing a hull upgrade or stealth for "1" point - so if you look at it as boosting the cost of a missile, you can just as easily look at it as reducing the cost of an EPT or a Modification...

This really isn't right, because they're not exclusive choices.

Say I have an A-wing with Chaardan on it. I add a Stealth. What's the cost change? 3 points. I take it off? -3 points.

Any time you select an upgrade, you have an opportunity cost which encompasses the other possible choices for that slot. Most of the time, that's really just the ability of other possible upgrades you could take instead - taking Sensor Jammer carries the opportunity cost of not being able to equip Advanced Sensors, which is pretty big.

But now it's got an explicit, and beneficial, cost to it. You CANNOT take a missile without making an A-wing cost 2 more points than it would without a missile, on top of the cost of the missile itself. Again - add a missile? +6 points. Take a missile off? -6. It's a cost savings with zero other drawback to it.

Stop talking. Its time to defect.

*sigh*

are you really suggesting that the dollar cost to acquire the cards should be a balancing factor in the game?

No - not at all, If that were the case - I'd go play attack wing

I'm suggesting that say if you had only two cards, (say for tournament play where you have to have them) means that if you are running 3 a-wings that two chaardan refits on a-wings A and B gets you a free concussion missile on A-wing C. Should you have only 2 cards - how can you imagine the price of A-wing C to be 15 points? I think you have to consider the Refit A-wing as a kind of A-wing Mk II - a different ship. In this list, Chaardan is effectively making your missile free. (I would hope however that in the x-wing community there'd be people willing to lend the cards to let someone run 5 refit prototypes and 2 z-95s if they lacked the cards)

In a pure one on one comparison viewpoint, I agree- the difference between the concussion missile prototype and the refit prototype is 6 points. In a list building environment where we consider the whole build - running two of them is effectively saying here - build a 104 point list, just don't put missiles on those two a-wings...

Just WOW!!

B-Wing + crew!

Cheap cheap A-wings with two EPT's!!

THOSE PILOTS!!!

Each of the cards previewed here beats most of what I've seen in Wave4, Imp. Aces and the large ship expansions!

It's a good day to be a Rebel!!

Pretty sure that FFG have play tested everything they bring out. I am not concerned on any seemingly powerful upgrades/abilities.

Love FFGs work.

This game will send me broke.

In a pure one on one comparison viewpoint, I agree- the difference between the concussion missile prototype and the refit prototype is 6 points. In a list building environment where we consider the whole build - running two of them is effectively saying here - build a 104 point list, just don't put missiles on those two a-wings...

This is the point people were originally making, but that you seemed to be objecting to. Equipping an A-wing with a Concussion Missile now costs you 6 points. Obviously, the numbers all sum up at the end, but when you put that card on, it doesn't cost you the printed cost, it costs you the printed cost plus the loss of Chaadran. So it's perfectly accurate to say the missile costs you six points.

As for the rest... <shrug> I don't believe we can rely on lack of cards in any way. If someone wants to go into a tournament and intends to run A-wings, I expect that they'll have the cards available.