Hello all...

My friends and I have been playing this now for a couple of months and I have noticed something that D&D has but not this...The use of Maps & Miniatures. Now is this on purpose or a small injustice. I ask because our GM was saying that our group was not using the "Cinematic aspect" of this game engine. Now I know that as gamers we automatically have an imagination but don't you guys think that this would be a lot better if there were maps or something of terrain or generic buildings or something (since space is space and doesn't need a map) to help bring this "Cinematic Aspect" out??

Just asking because we played one of the prefabs that is in this forum and it had a map and I have to say it made playing the combat portion of the game a lot more fun! So will FFG be creating maps or something the help this oversight if it is an oversight?

I don't know if FFG will be making maps but there is certainly nothing wrong with including them. A decent map can help people visualize range bands better, but I hardly think that would get in the way of narrative flair. Actors in SciFi movies all say they feel their performance is better when they have a great real honest set to work on and not a green screen.

Maps would be great, but I really don't them to be scaled for play on the table. A small print works.

For me maps are there to assist in visualizing. I will use pawns or stand-ups if I have them. But if I do use a map, I mostly just use dice on the table as markers. Even for games like Champions I no longer hold tight to the map. It is just a general reference to get an idea of where everyone is.

It isn't an oversight, so much as a rather common decision to make in the RPG industry. For the majority of RPGs, including most D&D editions, maps are either tiny things printed in an adventure module, or more commonly drawn out by hand to suit whatever situation a given story calls for. Some more narrative games never even require a map at all. The same goes for miniatures.

Maps can be helpful, especially for new players. And I dearly love my Star Wars minis, even if I've used them more for D&D than for EotE. If those are what fire up your group of players, then there is nothing wrong with that. I believe that FFG will indeed be including maps with each of its Beginner Boxes.

But maps and minis have some limitations when it comes to a system like this. Maps increase the prep-work that a GM needs to do, because they either have to buy or make maps for any given encounter ahead of time. Maps also tend to make it harder to run games online (which is a growing trend; half of my games have been online).

Finally, maps can limit some players' creativity. EotE is the sort of game where your character might be attacked in a dirty alleyway, and you say "My character dives for cover behind an overflowing garbage bin!" It makes sense that such a thing would be found in an alley, and such a declaration fits the "cinematic" nature of the game, and it helps people better envision the scene. But some players will only consider what the map shows them; it isn't on the map, so it doesn't exist.

In our group we have sometimes used maps, and sometimes not.

We ran the Beginner Box and used the tokens and maps included. Then we kept playing, and I bought a big map I could draw on.

I'd draw the maps for the adventure, and the players would move tokens around on it. Worked out pretty well.

I'm debating between miniatures and gaming board, or scribbled maps on big sheets of paper and vertical card representations of the characters.

Miniatures from troll and toad, while not the best painted, are painted and assembled saving time. However, I'd prefer to make my own boards with scenery. Only when it comes to space will I use gaming mats.

But, my own drawings would save money and I can create more unique places and characters.

Gaming Paper ftw!

I own all (I think?) of the old WotC SW minis maps, and they are of limited but effective use to me and my group. I have also purchased several of Maps of Mastery maps (mostly through Kickstarter rewards!) and those are also useful. But so far in EotE and AoR, I've used those pre-set maps a handful of times, maybe 4 or 5 times at most. For my group that uses minis, I either use regular printer paper with a rough sketch or gaming paper for big scenes. But for my other group, it's almost all theater-of-the-mind style, and I love it.

So I don't mind much that FFG hasn't produced many standalone maps. The Krayt fang from the Beginner's Box is the only map I've used more than once in a game, so it's been a good investment, whereas popping for a high-quality but limited-use map would be out of the question for my limited budget.

I went out (as in, online) and bought a bunch of WotC Star Wars mini's when I purchased EotE. Sometimes we use them, sometimes not. I agree that Gaming Paper is awesome, and I have used it to draw up some common Star Wars environments for re-use (Cantina!).

The cool thing about EotE is you don't need to think of maps the same way. Since there is no grid movement, you can print out a panoramic picture of a setting from one of the films or game supplements, etc., and then place that in the center of the table and mark character locations during action.

I ask because our GM was saying that our group was not using the "Cinematic aspect" of this game engine. Now I know that as gamers we automatically have an imagination but don't you guys think that this would be a lot better if there were maps or something of terrain or generic buildings or something (since space is space and doesn't need a map) to help bring this "Cinematic Aspect" out??

The point your GM is trying to make has to do with the whole Advantage/Threat Triumph/despair mechanic this game has.

In other games (like D&D) the player isn't expected to provide any real input on the encounter that doesn't involve his sword. In EotE, the player is expected to totally make stuff up to match the roll he just made. A nice pretty map can sometimes hinder that* at times by painting a picture the players are supposed to be painting, essentially some players will try and make a triumph effect match the picture of the alleyway on the map rather then adding the details themselves.

Likewise the range band mechanic might get an inconsistent feel, especially if the map you use is gridded (and the players can't let that go).

What I find works though: Use a simple image for stuff that doesn't need a map. If you have an encounter in say... a warehouse? Just go find a picture of a warehouse and when the encounter starts put out that picture. (not a map, just a picture). It's easy to do, and establishes the look and feel you want, without setting any "hard" facts about the environment.

For the rare occasion where a map really is kinda needed? Just a simple small whiteboard and some dry erase markers, and draw out only the rough floorplan with as few details as possible and encourage the player to fill in the details as they go. "Advantage? Ok I use that to notice this guy is standing right in front of a window about right... here *marks maps.*" As a player, I'd say you should present this idea to your GM, it's cheap and effective and I think it'll be a good middle ground that doesn't require any real extensive prepwork on his end, but will allow you to get a rough visualization when you really are having trouble understanding what the GM is trying to present.

* Yes, it can also help sometimes too, but I still advocate trying to reduce the number of maps to the absolute minimum at least for a while while the players get used to the idea of being able to add details themselves.

I've got a couple of wet-erase maps from Chessex, from their factory seconds bargain bin and a whole boat load of the WotC minis that I occasionally use. We don't use them all the time, but once in a while, when it's a big fight coming up that I can plan for, I'll use 'em. Mind you, we keep it vague - fast and loose is the order of the day, with estimations of range bands and the like - so it still serves the game engine well, despite having something concrete to look at and move around.

My FLGS has plexiglass sheets on the tables. Slide your map or pic under it and draw to your hearts content.

As for types of maps, I like low detail ones that just have major features such as walls, hatches, doors, etc. That way I can easily draw in extra windows or that needed garbage heap.

I've used maps and minis and it's a double-edged sword. It makes visualization easier, but it adds complexity and time to encounters.

What I like about using premade fancy maps over drawing my own is that there are terrain features I wouldn't normally have included that my players can utilize; case in point, I had a sw minis map with a docking bay and a tractor beam room that my heroes put to good use. Had I not used that map, things would have turned out drastically differently and changed the tone of our Beyond The Rim storyline.

I haven't used maps and mini's since the beginner game. It took some getting used to but now I won't go back....

I've had some luck finding some commercial floorplans to print off and use which look quite nice, offer some reference for players with no real effort on my part.

I stopped using maps for a while, but found my players were getting a little stagnant with their RP. When they had maps they were sliding under tables, jumping out windows, and using cover. But I agree with the issue that maps can add prep time. So I've started using this tool: http://pyromancers.com/dungeon-painter-online/ . And with a color printer or a quick trip to Fedex you can have a nice map customized for your game. Using the Dungeon Painter I was able to create this spacestation layout in about 30 minutes:

I've got a couple of dry-erase maps from Chessex, from their factory seconds bargain bin and a whole boat load of the WotC minis that I occasionally use. We don't use them all the time, but once in a while, when it's a big fight coming up that I can plan for, I'll use 'em. Mind you, we keep it vague - fast and loose is the order of the day, with estimations of range bands and the like - so it still serves the game engine well, despite having something concrete to look at and move around.

I got a dry-erase map from Chessex and I must have used it wrong, because no matter how I scrub or with what, I can't get the markings off of it.

So one side of my map is now permanently a town square on Ord Mantell...

The chessex mats work better with wet erase markers in my experience. I've heard of people using dry erase, but every example I've seen there were marks left.

Reds tend to stain more too. Leave a red wet erase on the mat and you'll have ghost lines left.

I've got a couple of dry-erase maps from Chessex, from their factory seconds bargain bin and a whole boat load of the WotC minis that I occasionally use. We don't use them all the time, but once in a while, when it's a big fight coming up that I can plan for, I'll use 'em. Mind you, we keep it vague - fast and loose is the order of the day, with estimations of range bands and the like - so it still serves the game engine well, despite having something concrete to look at and move around.

I got a dry-erase map from Chessex and I must have used it wrong, because no matter how I scrub or with what, I can't get the markings off of it.

So one side of my map is now permanently a town square on Ord Mantell...

Chessex doesn't make dry-erase mats. They only make vinyl mats that use water-soluble overhead-projection pens. I've had mine for years.

The chessex mats work better with wet erase markers in my experience. I've heard of people using dry erase, but every example I've seen there were marks left.

Reds tend to stain more too. Leave a red wet erase on the mat and you'll have ghost lines left.

Yeah, no red and don't leave the drawings on the map for too long. A evening of gaming should be fine - but longer than 24 hours and you're in trouble. And yes - that was bad advice about the dry erase. I was thinking of the other type of markers - dry erase will bone your map.

I miss tac-tiles. I never had the chance to order some before they went under and none of the successors have up to par.

Gaming Paper ftw!

I contributed to both their mega-dungeon map Kickstarters. Lovely, simple, utilitarian stuff. Not so much detail they don't serve your individual story, not so little the map looks boring. Good stuff.

So will FFG be creating maps or something the help this oversight if it is an oversight?

I don't think they'll be doing battlemaps. I half-remember this being about them not being licenced to produce a "miniatures-based" game.

EDIT: I may be getting this mixed up with Warhammer (the game's predecessor).

For d20 games I've used large butcher block graph paper with 1" squares for preplanned encounters. It gave me something to keep which was helpful if the players took up residence in the keep they had just stormed or later returned for some other reason.

For on the fly, I use a large dry erase board that is also magnetic. I didn't want to draw any kind of graph upon it to limit it's use in some games, so I put only permanent dots at the corners of where 1" graph squares would be. I can draw on it, erase, and I have a set of minis and even magnetic tokens for boulders, trees, etc.

For EotE only the dry erase board is used. You don't need scaled off graph paper, but a large surface to write on is very important for pointing out who and what is where. It just doesn't need to be scaled. Small maps without a superimposed scale I do use to point out things. The only think I'm thinking of drawing out at mini scale is the players' ship.

I've always wanted an overhead projector to display on a table, but have never justified the cost. I think such with minis would be great for EotE. You could easily have ship, station, cantina maps on a computer and display them on a white board without need of having to draw them out during session or impose a graph scale. I could then draw on the white board extra notes as they are needed without having to go to the laptop/tablet to make cumbersome notes for display. But, alas, I don't think projectors will ever get cheap enough that the Witch of Dathomir I live with won't zap me with force lightning if I ever came home with one and tried to hang it from the dining room ceiling fan.

Yep, that must have been my mistake. I thought it was a dry-erase mat and used dry-erase markers on it.

Now I know!

I ask because our GM was saying that our group was not using the "Cinematic aspect" of this game engine. Now I know that as gamers we automatically have an imagination but don't you guys think that this would be a lot better if there were maps or something of terrain or generic buildings or something (since space is space and doesn't need a map) to help bring this "Cinematic Aspect" out??

The point your GM is trying to make has to do with the whole Advantage/Threat Triumph/despair mechanic this game has.

In other games (like D&D) the player isn't expected to provide any real input on the encounter that doesn't involve his sword. In EotE, the player is expected to totally make stuff up to match the roll he just made. A nice pretty map can sometimes hinder that* at times by painting a picture the players are supposed to be painting, essentially some players will try and make a triumph effect match the picture of the alleyway on the map rather then adding the details themselves.

Likewise the range band mechanic might get an inconsistent feel, especially if the map you use is gridded (and the players can't let that go).

What I find works though: Use a simple image for stuff that doesn't need a map. If you have an encounter in say... a warehouse? Just go find a picture of a warehouse and when the encounter starts put out that picture. (not a map, just a picture). It's easy to do, and establishes the look and feel you want, without setting any "hard" facts about the environment.

For the rare occasion where a map really is kinda needed? Just a simple small whiteboard and some dry erase markers, and draw out only the rough floorplan with as few details as possible and encourage the player to fill in the details as they go. "Advantage? Ok I use that to notice this guy is standing right in front of a window about right... here *marks maps.*" As a player, I'd say you should present this idea to your GM, it's cheap and effective and I think it'll be a good middle ground that doesn't require any real extensive prepwork on his end, but will allow you to get a rough visualization when you really are having trouble understanding what the GM is trying to present.

* Yes, it can also help sometimes too, but I still advocate trying to reduce the number of maps to the absolute minimum at least for a while while the players get used to the idea of being able to add details themselves.

This exactly!

We stopped using maps because the players (all of us long time d20 players) started to get bogged down in tactical minutia and the free and loose narrative was completely non-existent. As soon as we got rid of the maps the encounters became more engaging and interesting.

We use skype and Maptools, so if I want to set the scene I simply drop in a jpeg into the map background for flavor.