This might be more of a general question but I ran in to this with a couple of my players on Saturday.

As I understand it, one Advantage can allow the current player to pass one Boost die to the next player in turn order. Two Advantage can allow the current player to pass one Boost die to any player. Advantage can also do other stuff, as listed in the rule book and by PC/GM agreement. Pretty straight forward.

So what happens when a player rolls five Advantage? Can he pass five Boost dice to the next player? Two Boost dice to any player and one Boost die to the next player? My understanding was that:

1. spending enough Advantage doesn't "double up" an effect. In this instance you can pass a die to the next player but you can't pass two or more dice to the next player. And...
2. Advantage can be used used to trigger multiple effects, so long as they're not the same effect. For example, if a net Success and six Advantage are rolled, a player could pass one Boost to the next player, one Boost to any other player, and trigger a Critical on a blaster.

My players thought you could send five Boost dice to the next player if they had enough Advantage so they were throwing down fist fulls of blue dice. That just seemed weird to me but I couldn't find a passage to cite to back my case.

Thoughts? Rulings?

First off, the main question is: "Does it make sense in your game?"

I was at Gamernation Con over the weekend and heard EOTE designer Jay Little being asked many rules questions, and the answer was almost ALWAYS, "I don't know, does it make sense?"

The way the examples are written, it certainly appears that the only one really intended to be "repeatable" is spending Advantage to recover Strain. It doesn't seem like it's intended to pass 2, 3 or 4 Boost dice to players because you get a lot of advantage.

Also, what is most fun?

Generally if you get 5, 6 or more Advantage (we had one roll at the Con that came up with 8 Advantage), it's far more fun to come up with something narrative and AWESOME than to just pass more Boosts.

Unfortunately "fun and awesome" isn't something that I can adjudicate or define with a rule set. I absolutely love it when players are being creative but it's been my experience that most gamers are more about minimum effort and maximizing dice pools, i.e. taking the easy route. Not that they're power-gaming, mind, just that written intentions and a clear framework make for easier play.

I also (semi strictly, deeding on pace and importance of the scene) apply a rule to both players and myself as GM that to apply a boost/setback, there needs to be at least some narrative logic. i.e. You want to pass a boost to a player who's 30 feet away and engaged with a completely different target? Ok, but how does what you are doing apply to that? And then if that boost or setback comes up with a meaningful result, it can be worked into the narrative. This makes for some fun descriptions, and makes the advantage for boost something more than just another system mechanic.

Un fortunately "fun and awesome" isn't something that I can adjudicate or define with a rule set.

Fixed. That's kinda how this game works. It's designed to maximize "fun and awesome" without so much OCD concern for min-maxing the rules.

Obviously your mileage with your group may vary.

Unfortunately "fun and awesome" isn't something that I can adjudicate or define with a rule set. I absolutely love it when players are being creative but it's been my experience that most gamers are more about minimum effort and maximizing dice pools, i.e. taking the easy route. Not that they're power-gaming, mind, just that written intentions and a clear framework make for easier play.

I think if you leverage the system you can attain a reasonable amount of balance.

Are you sure you are using proper difficulties? If the players are regularly generating lots of advantage you might be underestimating difficulty.

Are you applying at least one setback die to almost every difficulty? You should be.

Are you using the times they roll Threat to inflict strain? Are you doing other things to inflict strain?

Are you leveraging NPC advantage right back? It's all fun and games till the 5 man Stormtrooper group unloads 5 boost dice...

Are you using your destiny points? They wanna drop 5 boost dice? You upgrade the difficulty, Despair can't be cancelled after all...

Are you making the players describe HOW that effect is achieved? "OK, you got five boost dice, in the narrative what are you doing to make that kind of advantage possible?"

Are you coming up with stuff that ISN'T on table 6-2? The table is suggestions and baselines for comparisons, not a solid chart. If you can come up with other things that fit the mold, you can do it. Likewise 6-3 is just a sampling of ideas and options. It's entirely possible the players aren't dumping boost dice because they are trying to "win" it's possible they are doing it because they are lazy and don't want to think up new ideas. If you start using new material on them, they'll be urged to try and outdo you next time.

Thoughts? Rulings?

I'd allow it (and previously have,) simply because:

1. there are other things they could be spending advantage on to benefit themselves rather than the group

2. they rolled it fair and square

But, I would definitely ask for a narrative reason that someone passed all those boost dice - and it had better be good! As the final arbiter you certainly have the final say of course.

[edit] upon further reading of the rules (table 6-2 on pg 206) per jameswilletts' suggestion, I would go with the guideline to only pass one boost die unless the story dictated otherwise.

Are you sure you are using proper difficulties? If the players are regularly generating lots of advantage you might be underestimating difficulty.

Are you applying at least one setback die to almost every difficulty? You should be.

Are you making the players describe HOW that effect is achieved? "OK, you got five boost dice, in the narrative what are you doing to make that kind of advantage possible?"

Are you coming up with stuff that ISN'T on table 6-2? The table is suggestions and baselines for comparisons, not a solid chart. If you can come up with other things that fit the mold, you can do it. Likewise 6-3 is just a sampling of ideas and options. It's entirely possible the players aren't dumping boost dice because they are trying to "win" it's possible they are doing it because they are lazy and don't want to think up new ideas. If you start using new material on them, they'll be urged to try and outdo you next time.

You know, I never noticed that the book recommends/requires only one instance of each type of advantage use per roll. I kinda miss my cheesy GM screen I made from scratch with player info on their side and GM info on my side. At least their uses were right in front of them.

But anyway, Ghostofman took the words right out of my typing fingers. There is a video out there somewhere with the developers discussing how nice it is to see players describing the effect their rolls have on the scene. My players have been piling on the boost dice, so I will let them know what the book says, but allow it only if they can describe it. That ought to get the ball rolling.

I agree about the setback dice, too. I don't use them enough. There may be a discussion somewhere else about this (so link 'em if ya got 'em), but I find few instances where I can bring in the red dice without spending destiny. I don't like spending destiny unless it's theatrically appropriate (i.e., influence from the dark side, or to steer them away from an idea). Someone said that more danger should warrant more red dice, but if anyone else has their two cents, I'd love to hear it.

And has anyone come up with other cool uses for advantages, threats, triumphs & despair?

You know, I never noticed that the book recommends/requires only one instance of each type of advantage use per roll.

I just reread pg 205 ( item 4, resolving Advantage and Triumph) and I don't see this in there. Where did you find it?

I was at Gamernation Con over the weekend and heard EOTE designer Jay Little being asked many rules questions, and the answer was almost ALWAYS, "I don't know, does it make sense?"

If I were one of the lead EoE devs at a convention, this would be my go-to answer, as well. Why? Because I'm not there to get bogged down in debate. You know he'd say "This rule specifically does blah" and people would still want to debate him about it. Adopting a "meh, is it fun?" answer frees him of that obligation.

Taking that into consideration, I still think it's a poor way to address concerns of the player base. It's a cop out.

This might be more of a general question but I ran in to this with a couple of my players on Saturday.

As I understand it, one Advantage can allow the current player to pass one Boost die to the next player in turn order. Two Advantage can allow the current player to pass one Boost die to any player. Advantage can also do other stuff, as listed in the rule book and by PC/GM agreement. Pretty straight forward.

So what happens when a player rolls five Advantage? Can he pass five Boost dice to the next player? Two Boost dice to any player and one Boost die to the next player? My understanding was that:

1. spending enough Advantage doesn't "double up" an effect. In this instance you can pass a die to the next player but you can't pass two or more dice to the next player. And...
2. Advantage can be used used to trigger multiple effects, so long as they're not the same effect. For example, if a net Success and six Advantage are rolled, a player could pass one Boost to the next player, one Boost to any other player, and trigger a Critical on a blaster.

My players thought you could send five Boost dice to the next player if they had enough Advantage so they were throwing down fist fulls of blue dice. That just seemed weird to me but I couldn't find a passage to cite to back my case.

Thoughts? Rulings?

I'd only allow a player to pass along one boost die. The chart makes a point of stating recovering strain can be selected more than once but fails to state that for the boost die, so interpret it to mean one boost die passed along with one advantage with one roll. Now multiple players may choose to pass a die to the last guy in line as it were, but I'd ask for the narrative rationale and if they couldn't come up with one I'd poo poo it.

I was at Gamernation Con over the weekend and heard EOTE designer Jay Little being asked many rules questions, and the answer was almost ALWAYS, "I don't know, does it make sense?"

If I were one of the lead EoE devs at a convention, this would be my go-to answer, as well. Why? Because I'm not there to get bogged down in debate. You know he'd say "This rule specifically does blah" and people would still want to debate him about it. Adopting a "meh, is it fun?" answer frees him of that obligation.

Taking that into consideration, I still think it's a poor way to address concerns of the player base. It's a cop out.

Jay Little actively recommends against consulting the book during play. At one point GM Chris was looking through his book during the game to try to remember a specific point, and Jay Little gave him some good-natured ribbing about it.

You're obviously welcome to feel it's a 'cop out' or whatever opinion you would like to have about it. I'm just suggesting that "Does it make sense in your game?" is one of the guiding principles of this roleplaying system, perhaps second only to "Does that make the game fun?"

"Can I give the next user 5 Boost Dice because we rolled 10 Advantage?"

"Does it make sense to do that in your game?" and "Does that make the game more fun?"

The Rules As Written are obviously important, which is why, I think, the developers wrote the chart of examples on how to spend Advantage the way they did.

According to that chart, recovering strain is called out as a repeatable way to spend Advantage, but the other things like passing Boost dice are not.

So what I was saying was, I believe the rules as written don't support passing more than one Boost die because of Advantage.

But far more important than my opinion of the RAW is your experience at your table. Does it make sense in your game?

Then play it however you would like to play it.

You know, I never noticed that the book recommends/requires only one instance of each type of advantage use per roll. I kinda miss my cheesy GM screen I made from scratch with player info on their side and GM info on my side. At least their uses were right in front of them.

DERP!

Ok yeah, looking at table 6-2 again.... only the "Recover Strain" option says you can select the option more then once. So By RAW, I'd say that each "add a boost die" option is only intended to be used once.

So you could spend 1 Advantage to add a boost die to the next player, and 2 Advantage to add a boost die to any player (which could be the same) but it does look like that's where it's intended to stop.

+1 to James for catching that.

I've been running this as follows: any one player can only benefit from one boost die from the "give specific player a boost die" AND one from the "give next player a boost die". Furthermore, they can't both come from the same source (other player). I'm not doing this to be difficult, I just try and encourage my players to think creatively about using Advantage rather than just generating lots of boost dice for each other.

I was at Gamernation Con over the weekend and heard EOTE designer Jay Little being asked many rules questions, and the answer was almost ALWAYS, "I don't know, does it make sense?"

If I were one of the lead EoE devs at a convention, this would be my go-to answer, as well. Why? Because I'm not there to get bogged down in debate. You know he'd say "This rule specifically does blah" and people would still want to debate him about it. Adopting a "meh, is it fun?" answer frees him of that obligation.

Taking that into consideration, I still think it's a poor way to address concerns of the player base. It's a cop out.

Jay Little actively recommends against consulting the book during play. At one point GM Chris was looking through his book during the game to try to remember a specific point, and Jay Little gave him some good-natured ribbing about it.

You're obviously welcome to feel it's a 'cop out' or whatever opinion you would like to have about it. I'm just suggesting that "Does it make sense in your game?" is one of the guiding principles of this roleplaying system, perhaps second only to "Does that make the game fun?"

"Can I give the next user 5 Boost Dice because we rolled 10 Advantage?"

"Does it make sense to do that in your game?" and "Does that make the game more fun?"

The Rules As Written are obviously important, which is why, I think, the developers wrote the chart of examples on how to spend Advantage the way they did.

According to that chart, recovering strain is called out as a repeatable way to spend Advantage, but the other things like passing Boost dice are not.

So what I was saying was, I believe the rules as written don't support passing more than one Boost die because of Advantage.

But far more important than my opinion of the RAW is your experience at your table. Does it make sense in your game?

Then play it however you would like to play it.

I understand the dev's intentions. And I get that it's within the realm of possibility to edit rules to fit play style. However, what makes sense for my game is a consistent experience defined by a) the RAW, b) intention/spirit, and c) the type of narrative put forth by the group as a whole with none of these taking priority over the other.

I agree with Brother Orpheo, in that Little's response is a bit of a cop-out. There has to be a way to settle arguments if there's a conflict ('You get shot by a stormtrooper.' 'No he misses me.'). Any game that gets to that point has to either come to a stop altogether (which is the ultimate failure of any system) or people have to agree to compromise. And as noble as compromise is, it causes issues in games. Especially if deciding, there's a conflict and the sides are intractable, who should win. And I don't think rules negotiation is what anyone wants out of a Star Wars game that they paid money to play because that takes time away from actually playing.

In summary regarding my situation: to avoid an 'arms race' of Boost dice being passed around the NPCs in order to balance out crazy Boost buffs and character traits that negate Setback dice in nearly every common situation, it's nice to know what the devs' intentions were if it isn't clearly defined in the RAW... even if there's a caveat of "this is what we think and you don't have to follow what we think."

I feel like I addressed all these concerns in my other post. You are of course welcome to play your game however you feel you need to, and in whatever way suits your table.

The Rules As Written seem clear to me that you can spend multiple Advantage to heal Strain, but that the other uses such as passing Boost dice aren't specifically called out as being repeatable, so in my games I rule that they are not repeatable.

Exceptions to this would be cases where a player had a really cool idea that we all liked, or that made us laugh, or which impressed us. In cases like this I might say "sure, you can pass two Boost dice with those four Advantage, because of that awesome narration you just described."

If you're unclear on when characters get hit by attacks and whether a character can just say "No, he misses me", then perhaps you might consult the Combat chapter of the Rulebook.

The Rules as Written on when an attack hits feel pretty clearly written to me, but your mileage may vary.

You may also want to consider all the places in the book where it says very plainly, repeated times, that the GM is the final arbiter of everything at the table.

This game has an abstract, narrative basis which, in my opinion, is baked into the core of pretty much everything about it. To say so is not a cop-out, it is part of the design of the game. That doesn't mean it is complete anarchy, but that the GM has a lot of leeway about how to rule on various issues.

jameswillets,

I've mentioned this in other posts, but my own guidelines about Challenge dice are that I tend to use them when I have something specific in mind for the Despair that could result.

The PCs are shooting guns in the vicinity of a giant lylek. Flip a destiny point, upgrade to a Challenge die. Despair means the lylek takes a stray shot and YOU get its attention!

Combat's in the vicinity of a power reactor, an engine, a speeder, something explosive. Despair means that something might get shot and explode.

You're trying to fence some goods to an underworld contact. A Despair with a failure might mean he becomes convinced the goods are counterfeit and refuses to buy them. Despair with a success might mean that he can't pass up the opportunity but becomes convinced you might be spies or that you were followed and immediately has you thrown out after completing the sale. (Or he becomes violent)

Just a few examples of how I might do it. Hope that helps!

Progressions : You're right. I did see your other post, and that's pretty much what I've been doing.

[insert Rival Faction Here] is chasing the players, and I say if a despair comes up on an astrogation check, I can use that to be discovered (or an asteroid field, as an example from the book). I flip a destiny point and upgrade the check to give me the red die I'd need.

In cracking a prison's computer system during a jailbreak, a despair would mean setting off the alarm. I flip a DP and upgrade the check to give me the red die.

etc., etc., just like you mentioned, I'm thinking.

I was just wondering if there were cases (besides Dodge, Adversary, and other talents) that would upgrade rolls in the game without my having to spend a destiny point. I was under the assumption that destiny points being flipped by the GM were ways to steer the players away from certain plot deviations or wrong turns, not just an excuse to give me a chance to see a despair.

But yes, the reiteration and examples helped. Thank you!

And Ghostofman : I didn't spot it. Concise Locket, as thread creator, brought the whole thing up. I'm just jazzed that these forums exist to clarify all of these things. I am also taking notes from your post about using setback dice more frequently.

Great ideas, all. Thanks again!

I raised a similar question in another thread about an upcoming encounter I was planning.

The encounter takes place in a crowded city square filled with people who will panic if a big fight breaks out.

I was trying to decide whether to just upgrade all the checks by default, to represent the increased odds of a passerby getting shot or otherwise affected by an attack.

The other alternative would be to use Destiny Points to only upgrade on certain shots.

In the end, I think it's really the GM's call based on the situation.

If my players were engaging in a firefight and there was one explosive canister in the room, I might occasionally flip a Destiny Point and upgrade the shot.

If they were having a firefight in a room where fuel oil and spilled all over the ground, I might just forego Destiny Points and upgrade every check that would be relevant.

This might be more of a general question but I ran in to this with a couple of my players on Saturday.

As I understand it, one Advantage can allow the current player to pass one Boost die to the next player in turn order. Two Advantage can allow the current player to pass one Boost die to any player. Advantage can also do other stuff, as listed in the rule book and by PC/GM agreement. Pretty straight forward.

So what happens when a player rolls five Advantage? Can he pass five Boost dice to the next player? Two Boost dice to any player and one Boost die to the next player? My understanding was that:

1. spending enough Advantage doesn't "double up" an effect. In this instance you can pass a die to the next player but you can't pass two or more dice to the next player. And...
2. Advantage can be used used to trigger multiple effects, so long as they're not the same effect. For example, if a net Success and six Advantage are rolled, a player could pass one Boost to the next player, one Boost to any other player, and trigger a Critical on a blaster.

My players thought you could send five Boost dice to the next player if they had enough Advantage so they were throwing down fist fulls of blue dice. That just seemed weird to me but I couldn't find a passage to cite to back my case.

Thoughts? Rulings?

The options selected on the chart with the exception of recovering/suffering strain are intended to be taken only once which was discussed on an Order 66 podcast however you will note that per RAW only those options state "this option may be selected more than once."

As for the Boost die for a single advantage, I have nixed that from the session I run and I convinced the party of the power involved by providing the example of "what if each enemy gave the next one in line a boost for a single advantage?" However I do allow for 2 advantage to give Boost die to different PCs.

I will say however that finding ways to spend single Threat/Advantage is difficult unless I want to have minions suffer damage for their single Threats so "Whatever works best" and "Does it make sense" should be the mantra to follow.