Good points Light Bright I can't really think of anything to argue or debate from that point of view. I've come to my own conclusions about this game but ill keep them to my self for now.

In reply to whether players or the OL are more excited for the Shadows expansion my players are pretty stoked about it. They are excited by the idea of surprise plot elements unfolding around them that may keep them on their toes. I think that appeal has even increased since the announcement of the expansion since some of my players have been introduced to Mansions of Madness and how the keeper manipulates the story to create a mystery.

Expansions are there to expand a game. Just cause one comes out doesn't mean you have to buy it. I agree FFG could do a little more with their base games at times like have more dice but let's face it they don't. On the other hand FFG does some things far better than their competitors when it comes to product quality. Every person I know that just touches the outside box of an FFG game immediately gives a compliment to the quality put into the game. I guess what I am saying is vote with your dollars appropriately if you want FFG to respond to what you want.

Also my players saw the last expansion for the heroes and monsters and one of my players is stoked to play as Bloodwing so I would say these expansions have a lot of appeal to heroes and overlords alike.

Either way if you are burning out on this game though then I would just say that is typical problem that all games inevitably suffer from. Games are trendy by nature and very few stand the test of time.

Some personal bias that I should admit though it that since the first time I played Descent 2e I really enjoyed the universe and have since expanded to other games in the Terrinoth universe so I realize I probably enjoy this game more than most. As such I am a sucker for expansions at the moment.

You know with the many heroes this game has it just took that much longer for people to pick one and we didn't even have all the expansions, thank god! I kid you not it took at least an hour for everybody to pick a hero. I was almost ready to go home and come back the next time after set up. It just took way to long.

So if that's the best they can do for heroes (make more) then this game will remain stale for heroes.

In reply to whether players or the OL are more excited for the Shadows expansion my players are pretty stoked about it. They are excited by the idea of surprise plot elements unfolding around them that may keep them on their toes. I think that appeal has even increased since the announcement of the expansion since some of my players have been introduced to Mansions of Madness and how the keeper manipulates the story to create a mystery.

Expansions are there to expand a game. Just cause one comes out doesn't mean you have to buy it. I agree FFG could do a little more with their base games at times like have more dice but let's face it they don't. On the other hand FFG does some things far better than their competitors when it comes to product quality. Every person I know that just touches the outside box of an FFG game immediately gives a compliment to the quality put into the game. I guess what I am saying is vote with your dollars appropriately if you want FFG to respond to what you want.

Also my players saw the last expansion for the heroes and monsters and one of my players is stoked to play as Bloodwing so I would say these expansions have a lot of appeal to heroes and overlords alike.

Either way if you are burning out on this game though then I would just say that is typical problem that all games inevitably suffer from. Games are trendy by nature and very few stand the test of time.

Some personal bias that I should admit though it that since the first time I played Descent 2e I really enjoyed the universe and have since expanded to other games in the Terrinoth universe so I realize I probably enjoy this game more than most. As such I am a sucker for expansions at the moment.

You know with the many heroes this game has it just took that much longer for people to pick one and we didn't even have all the expansions, thank god! I kid you not it took at least an hour for everybody to pick a hero. I was almost ready to go home and come back the next time after set up. It just took way to long.

So if that's the best they can do for heroes (make more) then this game will remain stale for heroes.

It hardly takes our group any time at all to pick, often we just randomly assign players an archetype then a class from that archetype and a hero to go with it. I'd love more classes to play around with. One of the cool things about heroes is that class combinations can be very powerful.

In reply to whether players or the OL are more excited for the Shadows expansion my players are pretty stoked about it. They are excited by the idea of surprise plot elements unfolding around them that may keep them on their toes. I think that appeal has even increased since the announcement of the expansion since some of my players have been introduced to Mansions of Madness and how the keeper manipulates the story to create a mystery.

Expansions are there to expand a game. Just cause one comes out doesn't mean you have to buy it. I agree FFG could do a little more with their base games at times like have more dice but let's face it they don't. On the other hand FFG does some things far better than their competitors when it comes to product quality. Every person I know that just touches the outside box of an FFG game immediately gives a compliment to the quality put into the game. I guess what I am saying is vote with your dollars appropriately if you want FFG to respond to what you want.

Also my players saw the last expansion for the heroes and monsters and one of my players is stoked to play as Bloodwing so I would say these expansions have a lot of appeal to heroes and overlords alike.

Either way if you are burning out on this game though then I would just say that is typical problem that all games inevitably suffer from. Games are trendy by nature and very few stand the test of time.

Some personal bias that I should admit though it that since the first time I played Descent 2e I really enjoyed the universe and have since expanded to other games in the Terrinoth universe so I realize I probably enjoy this game more than most. As such I am a sucker for expansions at the moment.

You know with the many heroes this game has it just took that much longer for people to pick one and we didn't even have all the expansions, thank god! I kid you not it took at least an hour for everybody to pick a hero. I was almost ready to go home and come back the next time after set up. It just took way to long.

So if that's the best they can do for heroes (make more) then this game will remain stale for heroes.

It hardly takes our group any time at all to pick, often we just randomly assign players an archetype then a class from that archetype and a hero to go with it. I'd love more classes to play around with. One of the cool things about heroes is that class combinations can be very powerful.

There's a lot of games like Descent where there's combos of power but I think that's hardly the selling point to a hero player in this game. Being a hero should be as fun as playing OL and as interesting it's just isn't there at the moment. It feels more like a game where the OL shows off his fun to other players lol seriously. It's a tedious chore to play game after game in campaign as a hero, there's not much there to keep the hero engaged and wanting more.

There's a lot of games like Descent where there's combos of power but I think that's hardly the selling point to a hero player in this game. Being a hero should be as fun as playing OL and as interesting it's just isn't there at the moment. It feels more like a game where the OL shows off his fun to other players lol seriously. It's a tedious chore to play game after game in campaign as a hero, there's not much there to keep the hero engaged and wanting more.

Ha, I feel that exact way about playing the Overlord.

I know I'm (unintentionally) encouraging FFG to make the hero game better. But the hero game to me was very boring while playing. I feel like I'm a robot..must race to beat OL..I have little reason to go to this side of the map or this side of it because there isn't a reason... Now I need to search this token and get oil for my joints!

There's a lot of games like Descent where there's combos of power but I think that's hardly the selling point to a hero player in this game. Being a hero should be as fun as playing OL and as interesting it's just isn't there at the moment. It feels more like a game where the OL shows off his fun to other players lol seriously. It's a tedious chore to play game after game in campaign as a hero, there's not much there to keep the hero engaged and wanting more.

Ha, I feel that exact way about playing the Overlord.

I dunno, when we play, we always play with 4 heroes regardless of how many players there are, and the players don't really control individual heroes as their own, but play more as a group and talk about what to do as a group, and make their movements as a group. Table talk should result in this more or less anyway if players are talking properly, it's bad play by the heroes to limit each hero to only one player's decisions, as they are less likely to discover alternative options and coordinate well with each other. The end result is very interesting to me when I'm a player, and when I'm overlord.

I know I'm (unintentionally) encouraging FFG to make the hero game better. But the hero game to me was very boring while playing. I feel like I'm a robot must race to beat OL I have little reason to go to this side of the map or this side of it because there isn't a reason... Now I need to search this token and get oil for my joints!

Lol

Well the most fun I got out of playing as a hero when I played is the scout he was the MVP in are games. He is probably as important as a pitcher is to baseball in descent. Heros need money to get far and the scout is the man or woman for the job. I play mostly as OL now but the only joy I got out of playing as a hero was the scout.

While I don't hate either role, I love playing the hero role over the OL role. I'm usually forced into the OL role because I know what I am doing as the OL, but I rather be a hero.

I vastly prefer playing hero to OL, simply because its rather boring sitting there, having your turn for 5 minuten, and then listening to the 4 hero players discuss 15-25 minutes per turn, excitedly, tackling various combos, challenges and finally pulling off a nicely-developed turn, after which you are back to slamming your often rather toothless monsters into their wall, hoping for a solid hit or two.

If the heroes are well-picked and -played, the game as OL comes down to a lot of dice luck on top of very solid tactics to even stand a chance, because 4 brains + huge number of possibilties are difficult to outwit consistently.

Plus, it takes ages until you get to play another turn.

Of course, one could ban table talk and force players to each play their character RPG-style, but thats really nothing but a workaround around the central issue: the heroes just have much much more player interaction, which is fun, than the OL can have.

I vastly prefer playing hero to OL, simply because its rather boring sitting there, having your turn for 5 minuten, and then listening to the 4 hero players discuss 15-25 minutes per turn, excitedly, tackling various combos, challenges and finally pulling off a nicely-developed turn, after which you are back to slamming your often rather toothless monsters into their wall, hoping for a solid hit or two.

If the heroes are well-picked and -played, the game as OL comes down to a lot of dice luck on top of very solid tactics to even stand a chance, because 4 brains + huge number of possibilties are difficult to outwit consistently.

Plus, it takes ages until you get to play another turn.

Of course, one could ban table talk and force players to each play their character RPG-style, but thats really nothing but a workaround around the central issue: the heroes just have much much more player interaction, which is fun, than the OL can have.

Banning table talk would ruin the game IMO. As the overlord, I have a ton of fun paying close attention to what the players are doing, planning out my next step, throwing out a few jokes, examining strategies, and then laughing when I roll 4 shields on that merriod the heroes then fail to kill. I'm constantly figuring out ways to bluff about the cards in my hand to force them to waste time playing conservatively, and making moves that seem sub-optimal to metagame them.

I feel like the game just gets more interesting when you get players who really know what they are doing. I've had my ass handed to me more than one time when the player group figures out exactly how to do a certain thing correctly. (I hate cripple with a passion btw).

I vastly prefer playing hero to OL, simply because its rather boring sitting there, having your turn for 5 minuten, and then listening to the 4 hero players discuss 15-25 minutes per turn, excitedly, tackling various combos, challenges and finally pulling off a nicely-developed turn, after which you are back to slamming your often rather toothless monsters into their wall, hoping for a solid hit or two.

If the heroes are well-picked and -played, the game as OL comes down to a lot of dice luck on top of very solid tactics to even stand a chance, because 4 brains + huge number of possibilties are difficult to outwit consistently.

Plus, it takes ages until you get to play another turn.

Of course, one could ban table talk and force players to each play their character RPG-style, but thats really nothing but a workaround around the central issue: the heroes just have much much more player interaction, which is fun, than the OL can have.

Keep in mind while one is sitting there so is the other 3 which I agree is boring. Interacting to get a hero companion just to make a decision and move is just one of my pet peeves with the game. All the calculating in the world on what is the best move is silly when most the time the best move was the obvious one.

I vastly prefer playing hero to OL, simply because its rather boring sitting there, having your turn for 5 minuten, and then listening to the 4 hero players discuss 15-25 minutes per turn, excitedly, tackling various combos, challenges and finally pulling off a nicely-developed turn, after which you are back to slamming your often rather toothless monsters into their wall, hoping for a solid hit or two.

If the heroes are well-picked and -played, the game as OL comes down to a lot of dice luck on top of very solid tactics to even stand a chance, because 4 brains + huge number of possibilties are difficult to outwit consistently.

Plus, it takes ages until you get to play another turn.

Of course, one could ban table talk and force players to each play their character RPG-style, but thats really nothing but a workaround around the central issue: the heroes just have much much more player interaction, which is fun, than the OL can have.

Keep in mind while one is sitting there so is the other 3 which I agree is boring. Interacting to get a hero companion just to make a decision and move is just one of my pet peeves with the game. All the calculating in the world on what is the best move is silly when most the time the best move was the obvious one.

That's part of the reason I like being able to use fatigue to move: it mandates more resource management in order to figure out optimal moves. I also really enjoy more complex classes like the Geomancer, because the amount of move options becomes incredibly varied. Familiar based classes are quite interesting as well. I don't particularly enjoy warriors because they tend to just not have enough to do, but I have a ton of fun with scouts and mages.

Another thing I'd like to say is if the game was meant to be tactical they feel short pretty bad. A tactical game I'm used to playing is Warhammer, 40k, chess ect. That's tactical! When I decided to play this game I was thinking it would take us on an adventure as these type of game generally do, this one didn't.

Battlelore is light but tactical..

I vastly prefer playing hero to OL, simply because its rather boring sitting there, having your turn for 5 minuten, and then listening to the 4 hero players discuss 15-25 minutes per turn, excitedly, tackling various combos, challenges and finally pulling off a nicely-developed turn, after which you are back to slamming your often rather toothless monsters into their wall, hoping for a solid hit or two.

If the heroes are well-picked and -played, the game as OL comes down to a lot of dice luck on top of very solid tactics to even stand a chance, because 4 brains + huge number of possibilties are difficult to outwit consistently.

Plus, it takes ages until you get to play another turn.

Of course, one could ban table talk and force players to each play their character RPG-style, but thats really nothing but a workaround around the central issue: the heroes just have much much more player interaction, which is fun, than the OL can have.

Keep in mind while one is sitting there so is the other 3 which I agree is boring. Interacting to get a hero companion just to make a decision and move is just one of my pet peeves with the game. All the calculating in the world on what is the best move is silly when most the time the best move was the obvious one.

That's part of the reason I like being able to use fatigue to move: it mandates more resource management in order to figure out optimal moves. I also really enjoy more complex classes like the Geomancer, because the amount of move options becomes incredibly varied. Familiar based classes are quite interesting as well. I don't particularly enjoy warriors because they tend to just not have enough to do, but I have a ton of fun with scouts and mages.

It's starting to sound like heroes should play scouts and wizards only lol. So here's the new title "a game of nuking and stealing tokens, oh and there's an Overlord too".

I vastly prefer playing hero to OL, simply because its rather boring sitting there, having your turn for 5 minuten, and then listening to the 4 hero players discuss 15-25 minutes per turn, excitedly, tackling various combos, challenges and finally pulling off a nicely-developed turn, after which you are back to slamming your often rather toothless monsters into their wall, hoping for a solid hit or two.

If the heroes are well-picked and -played, the game as OL comes down to a lot of dice luck on top of very solid tactics to even stand a chance, because 4 brains + huge number of possibilties are difficult to outwit consistently.

Plus, it takes ages until you get to play another turn.

Of course, one could ban table talk and force players to each play their character RPG-style, but thats really nothing but a workaround around the central issue: the heroes just have much much more player interaction, which is fun, than the OL can have.

Keep in mind while one is sitting there so is the other 3 which I agree is boring. Interacting to get a hero companion just to make a decision and move is just one of my pet peeves with the game. All the calculating in the world on what is the best move is silly when most the time the best move was the obvious one.

That's part of the reason I like being able to use fatigue to move: it mandates more resource management in order to figure out optimal moves. I also really enjoy more complex classes like the Geomancer, because the amount of move options becomes incredibly varied. Familiar based classes are quite interesting as well. I don't particularly enjoy warriors because they tend to just not have enough to do, but I have a ton of fun with scouts and mages.

It's starting to sound like heroes should play scouts and wizards only lol. So here's the new title "a game of nuking and stealing tokens, oh and there's an Overlord too".

Lol you crack me up!

I vastly prefer playing hero to OL, simply because its rather boring sitting there, having your turn for 5 minuten, and then listening to the 4 hero players discuss 15-25 minutes per turn, excitedly, tackling various combos, challenges and finally pulling off a nicely-developed turn, after which you are back to slamming your often rather toothless monsters into their wall, hoping for a solid hit or two.

If the heroes are well-picked and -played, the game as OL comes down to a lot of dice luck on top of very solid tactics to even stand a chance, because 4 brains + huge number of possibilties are difficult to outwit consistently.

Plus, it takes ages until you get to play another turn.

Of course, one could ban table talk and force players to each play their character RPG-style, but thats really nothing but a workaround around the central issue: the heroes just have much much more player interaction, which is fun, than the OL can have.

Keep in mind while one is sitting there so is the other 3 which I agree is boring. Interacting to get a hero companion just to make a decision and move is just one of my pet peeves with the game. All the calculating in the world on what is the best move is silly when most the time the best move was the obvious one.

That's part of the reason I like being able to use fatigue to move: it mandates more resource management in order to figure out optimal moves. I also really enjoy more complex classes like the Geomancer, because the amount of move options becomes incredibly varied. Familiar based classes are quite interesting as well. I don't particularly enjoy warriors because they tend to just not have enough to do, but I have a ton of fun with scouts and mages.

It's starting to sound like heroes should play scouts and wizards only lol. So here's the new title "a game of nuking and stealing tokens, oh and there's an Overlord too".

Well no, I was merely stating what I personally enjoy. When we play as the heroes, we usually don't assign individual heroes to individual players, we all kinda control all the heroes as a group and talk everything through. It becomes more "Heroes vs. Overlord" rather than "Overlord vs. 4 Players". Warriors can be quite interesting, I just personally find them less so. Healers definitely have interesting gameplay going on.

I vastly prefer playing hero to OL, simply because its rather boring sitting there, having your turn for 5 minuten, and then listening to the 4 hero players discuss 15-25 minutes per turn, excitedly, tackling various combos, challenges and finally pulling off a nicely-developed turn, after which you are back to slamming your often rather toothless monsters into their wall, hoping for a solid hit or two.

If the heroes are well-picked and -played, the game as OL comes down to a lot of dice luck on top of very solid tactics to even stand a chance, because 4 brains + huge number of possibilties are difficult to outwit consistently.

Plus, it takes ages until you get to play another turn.

Of course, one could ban table talk and force players to each play their character RPG-style, but thats really nothing but a workaround around the central issue: the heroes just have much much more player interaction, which is fun, than the OL can have.

Keep in mind while one is sitting there so is the other 3 which I agree is boring. Interacting to get a hero companion just to make a decision and move is just one of my pet peeves with the game. All the calculating in the world on what is the best move is silly when most the time the best move was the obvious one.

That's part of the reason I like being able to use fatigue to move: it mandates more resource management in order to figure out optimal moves. I also really enjoy more complex classes like the Geomancer, because the amount of move options becomes incredibly varied. Familiar based classes are quite interesting as well. I don't particularly enjoy warriors because they tend to just not have enough to do, but I have a ton of fun with scouts and mages.

It's starting to sound like heroes should play scouts and wizards only lol. So here's the new title "a game of nuking and stealing tokens, oh and there's an Overlord too".

Well no, I was merely stating what I personally enjoy. When we play as the heroes, we usually don't assign individual heroes to individual players, we all kinda control all the heroes as a group and talk everything through. It becomes more "Heroes vs. Overlord" rather than "Overlord vs. 4 Players". Warriors can be quite interesting, I just personally find them less so. Healers definitely have interesting gameplay going on.

I know I was just messing with you.

You know with the many heroes this game has it just took that much longer for people to pick one and we didn't even have all the expansions, thank god! I kid you not it took at least an hour for everybody to pick a hero. I was almost ready to go home and come back the next time after set up. It just took way to long.

So if that's the best they can do for heroes (make more) then this game will remain stale for heroes.

That's a LONG time. I'm willing to bet that your group is a pretty extreme outlier in this case. I've never heard of hero selection taking anywhere CLOSE to that long with possibly the exception of completely new players (including the overlord) who haven't ever looked at the game before.

For anyone else who feels like that's a big issue, pretty much everything (characters and classes) can be found on descentinthedark.com, so sending them there to look over things before your session should help speed things up. But again, I've never even heard of that problem before.

Haha my players have taken an hour or more to pick combinations before. Personally I think it's OK as they will be stuck with the same heroes for easily 20+ hours of game play, I would much rather they take long to pick a group they enjoy to play than to pick quickly and sit through hours of regret in a hero they do not enjoy to play.

It's seems like the scout has a lot of things he can do he seems more important then the others. Maybe that's part of the problem for me they all need to be more important. Otherwise everybody is going to play as a scout or fight over it (No we wouldn't fight over it I'm just saying). It is like baseball everybody wants to be where the action is because outfield is boring.

Healer heals, fighter fights, wizard is I guess crowd controll. Scout is all around good at everything but healing. It almost sounds competitive how Silverhelm described it. But that's good and sounds fun I just want them equally competitive. But there's also the adventure problem I'm not sure how that can get better for me. Maybe the importance of coin is the problem..

I vastly prefer playing hero to OL, simply because its rather boring sitting there, having your turn for 5 minuten, and then listening to the 4 hero players discuss 15-25 minutes per turn, excitedly, tackling various combos, challenges and finally pulling off a nicely-developed turn, after which you are back to slamming your often rather toothless monsters into their wall, hoping for a solid hit or two.

If the heroes are well-picked and -played, the game as OL comes down to a lot of dice luck on top of very solid tactics to even stand a chance, because 4 brains + huge number of possibilties are difficult to outwit consistently.

Plus, it takes ages until you get to play another turn.

Of course, one could ban table talk and force players to each play their character RPG-style, but thats really nothing but a workaround around the central issue: the heroes just have much much more player interaction, which is fun, than the OL can have.

That. So much.

Heroes turn in mansion of madness offers much more interactions to the OL.

In descent it´s all about waiting and why Don't players roll the defense die so I could do the dishes ?

It's seems like the scout has a lot of things he can do he seems more important then the others. Maybe that's part of the problem for me they all need to be more important. Otherwise everybody is going to play as a scout or fight over it (No we wouldn't fight over it I'm just saying). It is like baseball everybody wants to be where the action is because outfield is boring.

Healer heals, fighter fights, wizard is I guess crowd controll. Scout is all around good at everything but healing. It almost sounds competitive how Silverhelm described it. But that's good and sounds fun I just want them equally competitive. But there's also the adventure problem I'm not sure how that can get better for me. Maybe the importance of coin is the problem..

Maybe, I do wish there was more adventure like D1.

It's seems like the scout has a lot of things he can do he seems more important then the others. Maybe that's part of the problem for me they all need to be more important. Otherwise everybody is going to play as a scout or fight over it (No we wouldn't fight over it I'm just saying). It is like baseball everybody wants to be where the action is because outfield is boring.

Healer heals, fighter fights, wizard is I guess crowd controll. Scout is all around good at everything but healing. It almost sounds competitive how Silverhelm described it. But that's good and sounds fun I just want them equally competitive. But there's also the adventure problem I'm not sure how that can get better for me. Maybe the importance of coin is the problem..

Well I've always played scout but I know how the others work since I'm sitting with them. You can use the scout for all kinds of cool strategy like using him as a decoy is good. Because the OL will eventually try to KO him or go after him some other way. It works OL feels like he/she accomplished something when he takes him down or trips him up but sometimes that's the plan. Now I play as OL it's a pain to deal with him sometimes but more and more expansions come out new tricks emerge.

Why you don't like game is only a mystery to you. I do agree with some of your points though. I too wish there was more exploration but it would probably slow game down to much for me. But if they came up with something cleaver I wouldn't complain.

I feel all the roles require their own strategy. Healers have tons of options, as do wizards and fighters in terms of the style they want to play. Granted, some disciplines take more skill to master than others. (For instance, Wildlander is easier to use than Treasure Hunter, because a Wildlander starts off with a stronger skillset.) However, anyone knowing what they are doing can really abuse the advantages each discipline has while covering up the weaknesses that might be apparent.

As an OL, preying upon these weaknesses is how you can trounce the heroes, even if the heroes might seem too powerful. Adjusting your strategy to how the heroes are developing is the challenge there.

There is a lot of strategy and tactics in Descent 2e. I think the big mistake a lot of people make when getting into this game is they think its "DnD The Board Game" when it is in fact more like an updated and vastly superior version of HeroQuest.