angel1977 said:

If you have all 5 dice you won't spend ANY fatigue AT ALL.

Corbon said:

You are completely missing the point of what I said. It is possible to be "just short" with 4 dice, spend a fatigue and still not get the damage you need with die 5. If you have all five dice upgraded, you may well get the same result but at least you haven't spent any fatigue to find it out. By the same token, you might roll a kill shot with 5 dice all at once or you might roll the same thing more slowly while spending fatigue to add more dice. The net result is the same amount of damage (hit or miss) - the only difference is how much fatigue you spent to get there. If you roll really well and kill the monster with only 3 dice, guess what? You could've done that with 5 dice too and had two left over you didn't need. No extra cost. If you roll crappy with 3 dice and need to spend fatigue to upgrade, you might have been able to get the kill shot with 5 dice and no fatigue spent.

Whether you roll all 5 dice at once or whether you roll them one at a time, the statistical odds of getting any given value on each of those five dice DOES NOT CHANGE. The only thing that does change is how much fatigue you need to spend to get 5 dice on the table, IF you need them.

Of course it is better having 5 gold dices to begin with

When you play RTL you need to consider upgrading your existing dices to silver or adding a new black die. If you can choose between having SBBB or BBBBB; I would prefer SBBB since I could add the 5th die AFTER I knew I had hit and be sure that I had not wasted fatigue. SSB would be even better since I could add first one dice and then another (if I needed one).

Steve-O said:

Nope, I recognise your point, I just don't believe it has much value, compared to the one I've made which you appear to be missing.

If you leave a dice slot open then your 5th dice can be whatever is necessary to get the kill - from nothing to gold. It may or may not cost you extra fatigue. Either way, you can get the job done more often. The statistical odds (of getting the job done) do change because the last dice can be of whatever value is required (up to 3 per available slot) to do the job.

If your 5th slot is already filled then you are restricted to what you rolled. You may save some fatigue, but you don't get the job done as often, because the last dice is always fixed (pretty much at 1 unless you have a ridiculous amount of upgrades).

Sure, you end up spending extra fatigue sometimes with only 4 dice.
But not that often, only IF you need them, and 5/6 time it is critically valuable (by the time you have a lot of upgrades it would be pretty rare for a surge not count as at least one damage).

Lets try some examples. We'll use the ubiquitous Axe because it is simple (relatively!) to calculate, even though better weapons will usually be available by the time you have that many upgrades.
We don't need to worry about 'real' monsters either since what we are really looking at is the ability to 'reach' some specific number and there are too many other variables (extra damage from skills, treasures, terrain etc) involved in that number for 'real'. In the end though, what it comes down to is that we need a certain damage potential from the 'roll' each time.
RG5Bl
Odds / Exact Damage result (surge = 1 damage)/ % at least that much damage assume a non-X
0.167 / X / -
0.000 / 3 / 100
0.000 / 4 / 100
0.002 / 5 / 99.97
0.013 / 6 / 99.7
0.046 / 7 / 98.2
0.111 / 8 / 92.7
0.190 / 9 / 79.4
0.225 / 10 / 56.5
0.156 / 11 / 29.5
0.089 / 12 / 10.7
0 / 13 / 0
0 / 14 / 0

To simplify the calcs, we will assume that chance of Y damage with 4 black dice is the same as chance of Y+1 damage with 5 black dice (in other words, we assume the dice removed is a non-blank from the original, so this is actually more harmful to the 4 dice theory than reality is). We will also ignore Xs as they are the same probability in all cases.

Chance of a one hit kill assuming no X:
A=RG5Bl B=RG4Bl+fatigue as necessary
Need 6 Damage: A = 99.7% B = 98.2% + 1.1% (5/6 * chance exactly 5 damage) spending 1 fatigue , total 98.3% 5 dice better on a tiny margin
Need 7 Damage: A = 98.2% B = 92.7% + 3.8% (5/6 * chance exactly 6 damage) 1 fat + 1.1% 2 fat , total 97.6% 5 dice better on a tiny margin
Need 8 Damage: A = 92.7% B = 79.4% + 9.3% (...) 1 fat + 3.8% 2 fat + 1.1% 3 fat, total 92.6% basically the same
Need 9 Damage: A = 79.4% B = 56.5% + 15.9% 1 fat + 9.3% 2 Fat + 3.8% 3 fat, total 85.5% 4 dice and fatigue better
Need 10 Damage: A = 56.5% B = 29.5% + 18.8% 1 fat + 15.9% 2 fat + 9.3% 3 fat, total 73.5% 4 dice + fat way better
Need 11 Damage: A = 29.5% B = 10.7% + 13% 1 fat + 18.8% 2 fat +15.9% 3 fat, total 58.4% 4 dice + fat better, almost double
Need 12 Damage: A = 10.7% B = 0% + 7.4% 1 fat + 13% 2 fat +18.8% 3 fat, total 39.2% 4 dice + fat better, more than triple
Need 13 Damage: A = 0% B = 0+0+7.4+13 = 20.4% *
Need 14 Damage: A = 0% B = 7.4% *
*5 dice can only do this by spending (1 less) fatigue but before the roll, so wasting it most of the time.

So in general, your chance of 'doing the job' is higher with 1 dice slot empty. Sometimes it will cost you some fatigue, sometimes it will not.

Nanok is the only character I would consider buying the 5th dice for. It is always better up upgrade the first 4 dice instead, or take a skill.

Thx for all advices, they're really interesting, but still I don't know what to do with caverns of thull: when and how much "boss" rewards I get during 3rd and 4th level?

Khornel said:

FAQ pg 12
Q: In a dungeon with more than 3 levels, do the heroes still receive bonus XP and treasure on the third dungeon level?
A: The bonus XP and treasure should be conferred on the last dungeon level, which is not necessarily the 3rd dungeon level in all cases.

so third level in Caverns of Thull does not get the extra bonuses for 'last level' (usually third) and you get 2CT and 100coins for each leader (boss).

Final (legendary, 4th) level in Caerns of Thuul you get 4CT and 250coins per leader (boss) dragon you kill. Which might be all 3 for 12CT and 750coins ++.

That would be obvious, but there si one small problem. In Caverns' description we can find, that we get 2 CT for killing each dragon, and that it reapears or something like that (there is possibility that this is only one dragon with strange 'undying'). So do I get 6CT I kill him fo the total of 18 or 2 each time and additional 4 when I kill him last time for the total of 10 or maybe in this specific case I get 4 for 3rd level boss and total of 6 for the dragon in this specific case. (I don't know if this problem applies also to other legendary areas, because I haven't been ther yet).

And I got another question: there is one plot (not obsidian and not nights as I remember) that has forst card which gives the overlord possibility to place temple marker on razed city and then this city's temple doesn't work anymore. First of all: there is no razed city at the beginning of the game, second: when city is razed, it can't be visited, so what's the point to make it's temple unusable? Is this just a misspelling and should be unrazed or am I reading something wrong?

Khornel said:

In that case the description would override the usual rules and you would get 2/dragon, so up to 6CT max.
However I am answering based on your paraphrased comments and so that may not be accurate.

I'd have to check the plot cards. It is just too dangerous answering paraphrased questions.

Khornel said:

Well. The cards in the Ascension plot states:

'Choose a razed city and place a temple token on it. The heroes cannot enter the Temple, as it is surrounded by magical wards, although they can still travel through it on the map.'

This means that after the plot card is placed the temple (needed to fulfill the plot) is active and the players may do nothing to stop this (ie. the temple cannot be destroyed or otherwise entered). This has nothing to do with the temples you may visit for healing, nor does the text specify that healing is forbidden so I cannot see any problems. They could have called it something different than temples to prevent possible misunderstandings though.

Maybe I am missing something, but this is starting card (0 xp cost - no razed cities - where should I place this token?) and still don't know what is it's purpose. When City is razed, then you can enter this field on the map, but you cannot use the city. What is this Temple? Is this special place connected with plot or what?

Khornel said:

To the best of my knowledge, this is how the CT for that level goes for killing the dragon

Kill it the first time: 2 CT

Kill it the second time: 2 CT

Kill it the third and final time: 2CT + 4 CT

Total: 10 CT plus 250gold.

Khornel said:

If you get a chance, post the exact text of the card. I won't have a chance to look this afternoon at my copy.

However, to me rememberence, the starting 0XP card for Ascension doesn't have you place a token.

As for the wording, they made a bad choice when they used the word Temple in the plot card. Once you raze a city, the Heroes can not enter it but they may pass through the space.

'Choose a razed city and place a temple token on it. The heroes cannot enter the Temple, as it is surrounded by magical wards, although they can still travel through it on the map.'

It still doesn't clarify all my confusions. When city is razed I still cannot enter the city, so what's the difference? Or does it mean I can move trough this field in similar way when I have staff of the wild? But for which encounter do I roll then?

Who says you cannot enter a razed city? There just isn´t anything worth staying, but sometimes you will need to use a path with a razed city. Otherwise it would be pretty strong for the OL to be able to cut off certain map areas by razing a key city.

As for the plot card: 0 XP doesn´t automatically mean that it is a starting card. Maybe you can play it as soon as you have razed city.

Parathion said:

Ok I wasn't very clear. By entering city I meant I cannot use it's buildings. So due to this card description I cannot enter this field or what? And if I cannot, how then I move (card states that I can travel through). Do I travel two routes in one week as with Staff of the Wild or something else.

Khornel said:

I'm pretty sure that's one of the cards that gets played after you raze a city. To the best of memory, that IS NOT the starting plot card. I'm trying to remember the name of the starting one. For Ascension, there are 5 (I think) zero XP cards, so make sure its the one that says "Play this at the start of the game".

You can't enter the city to use the Temple, Market, Tavern, Training Ground or Alchemist. They have it worded that way because they used the phrase "Temple of X" for the plot cards and they didn't want players thinking they could go there and use the "Temple of X". You can still move through the city, and stop there at the end of the move action , you just can't use any of the buildings there if you stop on the razed city. You don't roll for any encounter on the city, but you would roll normally for the trails.

For example:

Say Vyenvale was razed and had the Temple of WInds plot card played on it. If you were at the Applewood Forest and have the Staff of Winds, you would pass through Vyenvale and end on Morshan River moving two trails total. Do your encounter rolls as normal for having the Staff of the WInds (which I think is roll for both and choose one? Someone correct me if I'm wrong).

Make sense?

We played that the Legendary Dungeon, level 3 was just like level 3 in normal dungeons, i.e. you got 4CT and 250Gold. Then you entered the Legendary level and got the rewards specified in that level. Is this not right? Seemed like it from RAW...

(which begs how to properly play Rumor dungeons?)

-shnar

Khornel said:

Ok, I just did ascension. It's just a case of the card saying probably more than it needs to say.

A) Your starting plot is the one that tells the beginning of the story and explains how you get 5 CP for each city you raze. Ascension temple cards cost 0, because you have to get a city razed to play one and you need 4 temples before you bring out your big bad (The Harbinger Approaches) which means you need 4 razed cities (this can take awhile).

I think all the extra text is there to point out that despite their being a temple on the razed city that you cannot use it for healing and you still cannot do anything in the razed city with the temple on it. Just like a normal razed city, you can "pass through" which can include ending your movement in the city, you just won't be able to do anything (like visit the temple of fire and pay 25 gold for burn tokens up to the temple rating) while you are there. There are no city resources available when it's razed or when it's a temple of (name your element).

Steve-O said:

Corbon is totally right. 5 dice means you have to upgrade anything before you roll. 4 dice means you roll four and can roll one more die that could be black, silver, or gold. You roll 5 black dice and find yourself 1 wound short...too bad. You roll 4 and find yourself 2 wounds short...spend two fatigue for a silver. Don't roll a blank=dead monster. First example=monster in your face or at least another attack used up to finish it off. If it's vanilla, 5 dice makes sense because there's nowhere to go. If it's rtl, you have to consider that you can upgrade dice before rolling them. 3 fatigue can equal one gold die...but only if you haven't already rolled 5 power dice. You cannot upgrade dice after rolling, but you can add them.

Once you have 4 dice all upgraded to gold and somehow can afford more die upgrades, that's the only time I'd start buying the 5th die outside of Nanok.

shnar said:

Except that Legendary Dungeons aren't like normal dungeons, since they are four levels deep.

From the FAQ:

Q: In a dungeon with more than 3 levels, do the heroes still receive bonus XP and treasure on the third dungeon level?
A: The bonus XP and treasure should be conferred on the last dungeon level, which is not necessarily the 3rd dungeon level in all cases .

That bolded part is them refering to Legendary Dungeons, since they are the only dungeons that have 4 levels apart from the OL's Keep.

Big Remy said:

Where I find it confusing is that the legendary dungeons all give specific rewards for killing the leader of the dungeon..which would seem to supercede the 4cp and 250 gold part of last level.

I think they are basically just saying if the third level isn't the last one, you only get 2 cp and 100 gold. This means level 3 in legendarys and levels 3 and 4 in OL's keep.

I'm not sure I would confer another bonus 250 gold and 4 cp the last time you kill the dragon or when the giant stays dead, etc. I think you are limited to their rewards as written in the quest book. I would be more concerned with the fact that the heroes don't get 4cp and 250 gold for the third level. I say this being a hero in my current campaign, so this isn't exactly beneficial to me...but I think that's how it's supposed to go. But that's just my best guess.

I think for the most part though, the CT you get from killing the boss monster or the rewards from the Legendary Area outweigh 4CT and 250gp. Take the Caverns: Kill that dragon 3 times and you get 6CT from it.

Big Remy said:

Exactly, and you get 1,000 gold for each of those encounter markers, so I think that makes up for not getting 250 when you kill the thing...each time you kill it lets you get another 1k gold...worth it.

The other two legendaries have equally "worth their weight in gold" rewards with an unbreakable and very powerful armor that doesn't reduce speed or allow effects, and free skill/dice/secret training isn't too shabby, either. Not sure I feel about that demon in the gold dungeon taking my dice upgrades away, though...

OK, another question: when heroes' turn in game week starts in the same location as one of the LTs can heroes first attack LT and then go to other location, or they have to stay in current one?

The rulebook states:

If a lieutenant enters the party’s location he may (but does not have to) attack the party (see “Encounters Involving Lieutenants” on page 16).

But the FAQ says:

Q: The rulebook states that a lieutenant or hero must end their movement in the same location to attack each other?
A: No

The answer is probably a bit short; but I read this as: Both lieutenants and heroes may attack before or after they have moved.