That could happen, yes; but the fact remains that they're likely to make it so that starting PCs are equal in relative power to starting PCs of the other game lines. This being a likely possibility, how can you begin play as a full Jedi Knight and still be on equal footing to that Smuggler/Pilot?

Because your character concept isn't necessarily going to be encapsulated by the mechanics at the beginning.

Your character concept can be "I'm a Jedi Knight". But you may need to grow into that mechanically. But the game should provide you with the basics of that concept at the beginning so you can still get the feel of it from the start.

I'm with Donovan. Mind you the only Force-user in my game is only interested in prophetic abilities as well as a sort of "Spider-Sense", which the RAW already does quite well without unbalancing things; as always the best defense against unbalanced rules are balanced players.

That said, I would never allow someone with a Force Rating of 3 to hurl capital ships around, and even "juggling YT-1300s" would be dissallowed without a Discipline check of some kind (and possibly some automatic strain). I can imagine a Force Rating 3 character PUSHING a handful of YT-1300s off of a landing platform or something with a particularly good roll (and perhaps a touch of the Dark Side), but if the player describes something more complicated the needs of the narrative demand that a skill check be made, says I.

If I recall some of the force poweres can already augment this tree, so having a Jedi pilot specialty would be a waste and redundant.

I disagree. This is the exact reason that both Overwhelm Emotions and the Influence power exist: they do similar things, but one is in the core Force User Spec and the other is a Power. Different approaches for different people: some people will want some kind of "Force social ability" but have no interest in buying into the Power, while others want the Power but don't care about doubling back inside the FS Spec after getting Dedication. I LIKE that this games goes a way to discourage One True Builds by providing different options that have similar mechanics but different commitments.

You may disagree all you like, but the powers that be HAVE already reused existing specialties. Case in point the smuggler from edge of the empire and the ace from age of rebellion use the exact same pilot specialty.

I'm talking about Force and Destiny as a stand alone game. It seems people forget this fact. Making a pilot specialty that is different for each game line, could add a diversity for the sake of diversity, but if you only buy force and destiny, and not the other two game lines, you'd have no way of knowing it was different. By FFG reusing an assest that is perfectly valid and serviceable, they can focus time on making new content.

Now, I'm not saying reprint every specialty, but some will most likely be reused if appropriate.

If I recall some of the force poweres can already augment this tree, so having a Jedi pilot specialty would be a waste and redundant.

I disagree. This is the exact reason that both Overwhelm Emotions and the Influence power exist: they do similar things, but one is in the core Force User Spec and the other is a Power. Different approaches for different people: some people will want some kind of "Force social ability" but have no interest in buying into the Power, while others want the Power but don't care about doubling back inside the FS Spec after getting Dedication. I LIKE that this games goes a way to discourage One True Builds by providing different options that have similar mechanics but different commitments.

You may disagree all you like, but the powers that be HAVE already reused existing specialties. Case in point the smuggler from edge of the empire and the ace from age of rebellion use the exact same pilot specialty.

I'm talking about Force and Destiny as a stand alone game. It seems people forget this fact. Making a pilot specialty that is different for each game line, could add a diversity for the sake of diversity, but if you only buy force and destiny, and not the other two game lines, you'd have no way of knowing it was different. By FFG reusing an assest that is perfectly valid and serviceable, they can focus time on making new content.

Now, I'm not saying reprint every specialty, but some will most likely be reused if appropriate.

If you're suggesting the Jedi/Sith career might just have Pilot as an available specialization... that makes all the sense in the world. See Anakin Skywalker, Plo Koon, Saesee Tin, Asajj Ventress, Luke Skywalker, Kyp Durron, Antares Draco and numerous others.

If you're suggesting that "Jedi/Force Pilot" is it's own specialization... meh, less convinced. The Enhance power from AoR already allows for Force pips to be spent on Success or Advantage results on Piloting checks (planetary or space). That plus the Pilot specialization is all you really need, I would think.

But then again, who knows...?

So... how many XP is it going to cost to toss around a star destroyer? Now go build some not force using classes. What can they do with that number of points? A hired gun can kill all the minions and become nearly invulnerable as some of their abilities...everybody seems to be able to be pretty bad ass, How often do you think tossing star destroyers is going to come up?

Still waiting to see someone do this and see for themselves what the difference in power is.

To get a little more back on topic - someone in another forum I don't read that produces a podcast I don't listen to - suggested a good solution to this.

There is a sidebar that mentions Strain damage equal to the Silhouette of the object being moved.

When moving a very very large object there are considerations of personal scale vs planetary scale (e.g., you don't really have the ability to throw a Star Destroyer at someone or anything).

And even in the cases where someone could move multiple largish (say 4) Silhouette objects this doesn't mean they can hurl them as weapons. They can move them but not throw them with such velocity to be used as weapons (and certainly not in one round of combat).

I have yet to encounter a gaming system that didn't break down in some ways at the "higher end" of play. Certainly a game designer should strive to make higher end play work well but things usually slip through.

And the solution is always a GM who's willing to say no to things that create inbalance in their games.

A bit off-topic but, what do you think about a possible powers based on Commit 3 or 4 and you don't loose Strain due to your actions (based on the strain description about Jedis on the book) or another one like Commit 3 and grant 1 pip to fuel, maybe upgradable to Commit 2.

Probably I'll copy this to another post XD

I don't know why people wouldn't want players tossing Star Destroyers at somebody. I can see it now.

GM: Okay, you're in a massive Imperial hangar and guards rush you and are positioned at medium range.

Force user: Is there a Star Destroyer near by? I toss that at them.

GM: Are you sure? This thing's pretty big.

Force user: Yup, I just move it and drop it straight on them.

GM: Alright then, since you've got all all range and strength upgrades, you'll need 4 force pips.

Force user: *Rolls* Done, what next?

GM: Alright, last chance to back out - if you're sure you want to do this, make a discipline check at 8 difficulty, upgraded twice because one of the storm troopers has adversary ranks.

Force user: *Rolls* Done

GM: Congrats, you smashed the 5 storm troopers and the entire group with a Star Destroyer - Now tell me, what did you think would happen when you dropped or threw an entire battleship at somebody so close you could talk to them?

What? What do you mean? I can move a Star Destroyer but don't have the precision to just drop it on them? That blows!

Yeah... Those things are pretty pointy. Why not just the tip?

So... how many XP is it going to cost to toss around a star destroyer? Now go build some not force using classes. What can they do with that number of points? A hired gun can kill all the minions and become nearly invulnerable as some of their abilities...everybody seems to be able to be pretty bad ass, How often do you think tossing star destroyers is going to come up?

Still waiting to see someone do this and see for themselves what the difference in power is.

Guess I have a little project this afternoon.

Let's operationalize a bit first though.

What would it take minimum to be able to throw a Destroyer? The books right now cap us at FR3 and I don't think that's enough to throw a capital ship. What if I just get all the upgrades I can?

What's the XP/Credit trade off? The FSE throwing capital ships around wouldn't need a gun, but an Assassin would need a gun. Can I just assume with this much XP invested that the PC is going to have also collected enough credits to have pretty much any type of weapon/attachment/mods he wants?

You're probably just going over the same ground covered in this thread. I personally don't think per the RAW you can throw a Star Destroyer. I read the rules as capping at silhouette 4. Other people have different interpretations but it is just so unbalancing it shouldn't be possible period imo.

I think one should skew to the Dorsk-81 example (needing a Force ley line on Yavin IV, and channelling all the combined and amplified Force power of every student in the New Jedi Academy, and dying in the process from being a conduit for so much energy) versus trying to replicate something great for a single-player video game but terrible for an RPG like the scene in TFU.

Yeah... Those things are pretty pointy. Why not just the tip?

Just to see how it feels.

I have a quick question, on the control tree force powers.

It says you can move small objects, with the silhouette being the limiting factor based on the strength of the power. My question: how do you handle that with objects held by opponents?

For instance, one of my PCs, who saved up and discovered that he is truly force-capable asked if he could use the force to pull a weapon from the grip of a minion. I checked the rules but couldn't find anything and decided that it wouldn't make the encounter too easy, so I allowed it.

Anyone have guidance on this?

If I recall some of the force poweres can already augment this tree, so having a Jedi pilot specialty would be a waste and redundant.

I disagree. This is the exact reason that both Overwhelm Emotions and the Influence power exist: they do similar things, but one is in the core Force User Spec and the other is a Power. Different approaches for different people: some people will want some kind of "Force social ability" but have no interest in buying into the Power, while others want the Power but don't care about doubling back inside the FS Spec after getting Dedication. I LIKE that this games goes a way to discourage One True Builds by providing different options that have similar mechanics but different commitments.

You may disagree all you like, but the powers that be HAVE already reused existing specialties. Case in point the smuggler from edge of the empire and the ace from age of rebellion use the exact same pilot specialty.

I'm talking about Force and Destiny as a stand alone game. It seems people forget this fact. Making a pilot specialty that is different for each game line, could add a diversity for the sake of diversity, but if you only buy force and destiny, and not the other two game lines, you'd have no way of knowing it was different. By FFG reusing an assest that is perfectly valid and serviceable, they can focus time on making new content.

Now, I'm not saying reprint every specialty, but some will most likely be reused if appropriate.

If you're suggesting the Jedi/Sith career might just have Pilot as an available specialization... that makes all the sense in the world. See Anakin Skywalker, Plo Koon, Saesee Tin, Asajj Ventress, Luke Skywalker, Kyp Durron, Antares Draco and numerous others.

If you're suggesting that "Jedi/Force Pilot" is it's own specialization... meh, less convinced. The Enhance power from AoR already allows for Force pips to be spent on Success or Advantage results on Piloting checks (planetary or space). That plus the Pilot specialization is all you really need, I would think.

But then again, who knows...?

Actually I'm not suggesting either. A Jedi or Sith career would be a horrible idea, in my opinion. Considering the popularity of the Jedi, and everyone has an idea on the proper way to do them, they would have to have at least 20 specialties in the career. This is why I hope that Jedi (and other traditions that use the force) are handled through the duty/obligation mechanical equivalent for this game.

As to the second point about a 'jedi' pilot, I agree it would be a redundant, waste of time, as Age of Rebellion introduced a power that can enhance the skills of a pilot.

I really hope we see 'generic', as in non pigeon holed by names such as Jedi, Sith or Dathomir witch, classes. The idea that the tradition you follow is a seperate entity from career and specialty. This allows someone to play a Jedi, but have the freedom to make a Jedi they want to play, because, not all Jedi were great pilots or lightsaber masters.

I have a quick question, on the control tree force powers.

It says you can move small objects, with the silhouette being the limiting factor based on the strength of the power. My question: how do you handle that with objects held by opponents?

For instance, one of my PCs, who saved up and discovered that he is truly force-capable asked if he could use the force to pull a weapon from the grip of a minion. I checked the rules but couldn't find anything and decided that it wouldn't make the encounter too easy, so I allowed it.

Anyone have guidance on this?

If you're talking about Move, it's a 5 point control upgrade in that tree.

Well the rules for Force Move: Strength state that the "increase silhouette able to be targeted equal to strength upgrades purchased" and "increase the size of objects a character can move by a number equal to the number of Strength upgrades purchased". So since you can only (so far) move up to Silhouette 4 it doesnt matter how many times you can activate it, it doesn't stack, just overrides. The language is far too specific.

You're probably just going over the same ground covered in this thread. I personally don't think per the RAW you can throw a Star Destroyer. I read the rules as capping at silhouette 4. Other people have different interpretations but it is just so unbalancing it shouldn't be possible period imo.

I know it, but haven't actually generated the characters before. I just looked at the cost of making a FSE powerful. I assume that some people are re-buying all the Move upgrades a second time? I still don't think that'd put you in SD moving range. I mean, TIEs have Sil3 and a SD houses somewhere between 6 and 12 squads worth of TIEs. Along with any number of AT-ATs, AT-STs, Lambda Shuttles, at least a few hundred thousand? humans [troopers, officers, pilots, conscripted civilians, etc], Plus the mass of the ship itself. That's a flat NO for anyone attempting to move a capital ship. It's the rough equivalent to moving an entire city.

A SD is silhouette 8. Aside from that detail, it just isn't possible RAW imo. Silhouette 4 is the max I think. Others opinions vary.

I assume that some people are re-buying all the Move upgrades a second time?

You can't do that. Move in Edge and Move in AoR are the same power, just like the Pilot specs across game lines are the same. Can't double up on identical specs or powers. But there might be a future Force tree that further enhances Move powers.

A Jedi or Sith career would be a horrible idea, in my opinion. Considering the popularity of the Jedi, and everyone has an idea on the proper way to do them, they would have to have at least 20 specialties in the career. This is why I hope that Jedi (and other traditions that use the force) are handled through the duty/obligation mechanical equivalent for this game.

One career or three doesn't make a difference being that people can take any specs they want to fulfill their concept. We have Force specs that allow for increasing Force Rating but we will need more to go to higher Force Ratings. What we also do not have is a starting career for Force users. We will need at least one for those that want a character that started in the Force.

I think being a Jedi will be covered by careers/specs and the "Commitment" mechanic. That way players can take said Force careers but call themselves "Jedi", "Sith" or "Jensaarai". Or they can take Explorer, Soldier or whatever with the "Jedi Commitment" and do the same thing. This would be the best option as it would allow for versatility of the system. Different paths but similar results and more people happy because there are more options.

I assume that some people are re-buying all the Move upgrades a second time?

You can't do that. Move in Edge and Move in AoR are the same power, just like the Pilot specs across game lines are the same. Can't double up on identical specs or powers. But there might be a future Force tree that further enhances Move powers.

I know that, but 2P51 mentioned other ways people have played it to be unbalancing. That was the only explanation I could come up with since I don't think FR3 + all the Move upgrades makes a particularly unbalanced PC.

A Jedi or Sith career would be a horrible idea, in my opinion. Considering the popularity of the Jedi, and everyone has an idea on the proper way to do them, they would have to have at least 20 specialties in the career. This is why I hope that Jedi (and other traditions that use the force) are handled through the duty/obligation mechanical equivalent for this game.

One career or three doesn't make a difference being that people can take any specs they want to fulfill their concept. We have Force specs that allow for increasing Force Rating but we will need more to go to higher Force Ratings. What we also do not have is a starting career for Force users. We will need at least one for those that want a character that started in the Force.

I think being a Jedi will be covered by careers/specs and the "Commitment" mechanic. That way players can take said Force careers but call themselves "Jedi", "Sith" or "Jensaarai". Or they can take Explorer, Soldier or whatever with the "Jedi Commitment" and do the same thing. This would be the best option as it would allow for versatility of the system. Different paths but similar results and more people happy because there are more options.

I doubt it. I don't think there will be a force using career. there will likely be specializations that get additional force rating sooner.

I doubt it. I don't think there will be a force using career. there will likely be specializations that get additional force rating sooner.

No. I think they will stick to their initial program. You get a Force Rating upon initially entering and then have to make your way to Force Rating in the fifth tier. Lower tiers mean lower costs. Players could cherry pick certain specs just to get those lower Force Ratings rather than make their way to the second one. I don't see that happening.