The way Lucas has spoken about it, "bringing balance" meant getting rid of the Sith.

Yeah, the Sith abuse the dark side, creating an imbalance.

Now the Jedi just sitting around in their temple constantly indulging in the light, acting as though the could do no wrong, that did nothing to help the balance either. They allowed the dark side to thrive by assuming the Sith had been wiped out, even with evidence presented to them that suggested otherwise. Not to mention what the Plagueis book suggests, that an over indulgence in the light will cause the dark side to grow stronger in compensation.

Yoda's arc in the Clone Wars also touches on this; denying the dark side, denying your weaknesses and flaws, is arrogant, and only causes it to become stronger. Balance comes from accepting your flaws, accepting your dark side, and mastering it.

I'm not so sure you can explain the Chosen One's prophecy like a scale (one side dark, the other light), and Anakin bringing it back in balance...

I always thought that Anakin at brought balance to the force because you could fall from Light to Darkness, but never from Darkness back to light. So the true imbalance was that once you fall down the dark path, forever will it dominate you...

When Anakin redeems himself in RotJ, he goes from Darkness to Light... Now both sides are equaly strong, because it is possible to go from one to the other... not locked into one forever.

I see it like the Ying and the Yang... or 2 dragons eating each others tail... but if the first dragon cannot eat the second dragons tail, then the second will eventually eat the first dragon whole... now if both dragon can eat each others tail, then neither will become bigger then the other... In SW, it means that the light can claim fallen jedi, and the dark side can claim jedi too... a circle of falling and redeeming... both possible...

This actually fits in well with the Mortis trilogy from TCW. Perhaps Mortis is a reflection of the conflict within Anakin made real.

The way Lucas has spoken about it, "bringing balance" meant getting rid of the Sith.

Which Anakin did. Prophecy fulfilled. Anakin is the Chosen One. QED

At least temporarily. It becomes less impressive when the fortunes of Light vs Dark swing back and forth multiple times over the next hundred years, versus being solidly Light for a couple thousand.

So... how many XP is it going to cost to toss around a star destroyer? Now go build some not force using classes. What can they do with that number of points? A hired gun can kill all the minions and become nearly invulnerable as some of their abilities...everybody seems to be able to be pretty bad ass, How often do you think tossing star destroyers is going to come up?

Still waiting to see someone do this and see for themselves what the difference in power is.

I did the math behind this, and discovered that to be able to pull it off with *any* degree of consistency, you're looking at a +700XP (or more) build. (And you still have to start your action within a few dozen meters of a star destroyer in the first place.)

I assume that some people are re-buying all the Move upgrades a second time?

You can't do that. Move in Edge and Move in AoR are the same power, just like the Pilot specs across game lines are the same. Can't double up on identical specs or powers. But there might be a future Force tree that further enhances Move powers.

I know that, but 2P51 mentioned other ways people have played it to be unbalancing. That was the only explanation I could come up with since I don't think FR3 + all the Move upgrades makes a particularly unbalanced PC.

Actually, it's 3 or 4 of the Strength upgrades, and spending 2 pips to activate your Strength upgrade multiple times (twice if you have 4, thrice if you have 3), for a maximum silhouette of 8 or 9 respectively. (The rules explicitly say you can activate the upgrades multiple times *unless stated otherwise on the upgrade*.)

But you've still got to start within Short range of the object you want to throw. The Range upgrades only increase how far you away from you you can move/throw something, not how close to it you have to start.

You'll need to roll at *least* 3 Force pips to pull of this trick (4 if you only have 3 Strength upgrades). And that buys you the ability (with a successful Discipline check vs. 8d) the ability to 'throw' said star destroyer (which must start within Short range) at a single target within Short range.

With enough skill/characteristic ranks to pull this off about 1/3 to 1/2 of the time, you're looking at a character investing *at least* 700 XP beyond character creation.

The way Lucas has spoken about it, "bringing balance" meant getting rid of the Sith.

Which Anakin did. Prophecy fulfilled. Anakin is the Chosen One. QED

Yep. Prophecies are pesky things. Even when they *seem* clear, they're usually not.

Had Anakin *not* turned, the Emperor (or his apprentice du jour) would likely have remained hidden, thus preventing the (at least temporary) destruction of the Sith. It took getting the Sith into a position of power, to bring them to a point where you could strike at them directly and hope to succeed.

It's a shame that it took the near destruction of the Jedi to do it, but, like I said, prophecies are pesky things.

The way Lucas has spoken about it, "bringing balance" meant getting rid of the Sith.

Which Anakin did. Prophecy fulfilled. Anakin is the Chosen One. QED

Yep. Prophecies are pesky things. Even when they *seem* clear, they're usually not.

Had Anakin *not* turned, the Emperor (or his apprentice du jour) would likely have remained hidden, thus preventing the (at least temporary) destruction of the Sith. It took getting the Sith into a position of power, to bring them to a point where you could strike at them directly and hope to succeed.

It's a shame that it took the near destruction of the Jedi to do it, but, like I said, prophecies are pesky things.

If Anakin had not turned the he would have helped Windu kill Sidious.

Or are you saying if Anakin had never flirted with the Dark Side then Sidious would never have exposed himself?

Prophecies are tricky things which makes them great in stories - I view it as Anakin is the Chosen One and that his first opportunity to bring balance to the force was when he walked in on Windu and Sidious. He chose the dark side and so a greater imbalance was unleashed until his second chance to bring balance when he chose the light side.

Btw, thanks for running some numbers.

I've always viewed The Dark Side as an entity that has a will of it's own that forcefully exerts its will on Force Sensitive individuals in order suck more energy out of the galaxy through said individual. Hence why Jedi feel there is no redeeming a Sith. I've also always viewed the Sith as the ultimate purveyors of The Dark Side. They have such an understanding of the Dark Side that it goes beyond anything just a simple evil character could conceive. I just really like the idea of the Rule of Two though and the concept that there are only 2 people in the entire galaxy that have this immense and powerful understanding of the corrupting side of the Force. That is just a purely fascinating concept! All others who use the Dark Side are just pretenders and don't know squat next to the Sith!

However, I also think such understanding is false! Because the Dark Side is just a small part of the Force, so to not know all of the Force and just focus on one aspect is limiting. The flip side is, Jedi know the whole Force and understand that the Dark Side is a corrupting influence on the Force. They don't need to have embraced the dark side to understand it because it is a simple concept.

BUT, as the last few episodes of TCW showed, there is SO much more that neither the Sith nor the Jedi are aware of when it comes to the Force. And I think that plays into the Jedi's downfall ultimately, which I think Yoda comes to realize.

Gosh I love Star Wars!

That's the Jedi perspective.

The Sith would argue - as Sidious does in Ep III - that the Jedi have a narrow view of the force.

The Sith aren't afraid of the Dark Side - the Jedi live in fear of it. The Sith are willing to open themselves up to the full spectrum of the force instead of limiting themselves to just the "light" side. It's the Sith who are more balanced!

I think this is generally the line of thinking Sidious lead Anakin down culminating in Ep III where Sidious could reveal himself to Anakin and make the argument face to face. It also might be the source of Anakin's accusation that Obi-wan was holding him back which has it's culmination in A New Hope where he sees himself as the master instead of Obi-wan.

"Bringing balance" means more than defeating the Sith. It means following your own path guided by love. Luke rejected the Jedi Code to defeat Vader and show Anakin the error of his ways. He embraced hid anger and passion and basically said, "You would threaten MY sister? @#$& you you old coward! I'm gonna hurt you."

But immediately thereafter, he spares his father's life, throws away his lightsaber (dumb move, but symbolic), and rejects the dark side in a way even Yoda thought impossible.

Seeing this woke up something long dormant in Vader, something he thought died long ago. In that moment Anakin finally forgave himself for all that he had done and once again became that Council-defying Jedi who would stop at nothing to keep the ones he cared about from dying. The dark path he had traveled brought him to a place where, at last, Palpatine stood vulnerable andnerable and overconfident.

Thus did the Chosen One bring balance; by following his own heart and no other.

"Bringing balance" means more than defeating the Sith. It means following your own path guided by love. Luke rejected the Jedi Code to defeat Vader and show Anakin the error of his ways. He embraced hid anger and passion and basically said, "You would threaten MY sister? @#$& you you old coward! I'm gonna hurt you."

But immediately thereafter, he spares his father's life, throws away his lightsaber (dumb move, but symbolic), and rejects the dark side in a way even Yoda thought impossible.

Seeing this woke up something long dormant in Vader, something he thought died long ago. In that moment Anakin finally forgave himself for all that he had done and once again became that Council-defying Jedi who would stop at nothing to keep the ones he cared about from dying. The dark path he had traveled brought him to a place where, at last, Palpatine stood vulnerable andnerable and overconfident.

Thus did the Chosen One bring balance; by following his own heart and no other.

My interpretation of that scene is that Vader saw himself in Luke - in the grips of the dark side when a loved one was threatened - but when it came time to fully give in to the dark side Luke chose the path of the Jedi. Vader was reminded of the decision he made in very similar circumstances and inspired by Luke's example.

But to each their own.

Has anything in the EU actually clarified what is meant by the force being out of balance? It's touched on a bit in the Clone Wars cartoon but I don't know of anything definitive out there (but I don't follow much of the EU).

I like that the movies left that vague because it gives fans something to ponder and kvetch over.

I'd also add that in Ep II Yoda's advice to Anakin is spot on: Anakin should have trained himself to let go of that which he was afraid to lose.

In the commentary Lucas remarks - during Shmi's funeral - that at that moment Anakin makes a decision that will spell his doom: he will never again be weak and powerless to save a loved one. This is what Sidious uses against Anakin - the hope that the dark side can give him the power to save Padme.

I'd also add that in Ep II Yoda's advice to Anakin is spot on: Anakin should have trained himself to let go of that which he was afraid to lose.

You can see the appeal of the Dark Side: it appeals to natural instincts possessed by organic beings, and encourages the user not to discard them. Emotional attachments, regrets, fears, libido, personal connections - all of them are instinctive human baselines that can be extrapolated to belong to many species in the galaxy.

Jedi forcibly denying themselves natural feelings is hardly natural or mentally healthy. They sit at a weird point of balance. True ascetics might be able to handle that denial by removing themselves from the possible presence of temptation, but the Jedi are hardly true ascetics as meddling in government is their job, and yet are still expected to rise above. It's pretty ***ed up actually.

Has anything in the EU actually clarified what is meant by the force being out of balance? It's touched on a bit in the Clone Wars cartoon but I don't know of anything definitive out there (but I don't follow much of the EU).

No.

Whether that's because the intention is to leave it unclear or because the whole thing doesn't make any ******* sense is, I guess, up for debate. I tend to think GL just made that **** up to get from one stupid CGI action scene to the next.

I'd also add that in Ep II Yoda's advice to Anakin is spot on: Anakin should have trained himself to let go of that which he was afraid to lose.

You can see the appeal of the Dark Side: it appeals to natural instincts possessed by organic beings, and encourages the user not to discard them. Emotional attachments, regrets, fears, libido, personal connections - all of them are instinctive human baselines that can be extrapolated to belong to many species in the galaxy.

Jedi forcibly denying themselves natural feelings is hardly natural or mentally healthy. They sit at a weird point of balance. True ascetics might be able to handle that denial by removing themselves from the possible presence of temptation, but the Jedi are hardly true ascetics as meddling in government is their job, and yet are still expected to rise above. It's pretty ***ed up actually.

Lucas did base the Jedi on oriental philosophies like Buddhism and Taoism which do have a strong ascetic element. Which isn't to say that they never experience "forbidden" feelings or urges but are accustomed and trained to not hold on to them. Feeling hate isn't the issue as much as it's not stopping to feel hate.

Even Anakin's awkward comments to Padme in Ep II about Jedi being encouraged to be compassionate hints at these oriental philosophy.

And the path of self-denial is fraught with risks which is why the Jedi Order probably became loathe to admit anyone over a certain age - they were likely too entrenched in a non-ascetic way of being.

I've always viewed The Dark Side as an entity that has a will of it's own that forcefully exerts its will on Force Sensitive individuals in order suck more energy out of the galaxy through said individual. Hence why Jedi feel there is no redeeming a Sith. I've also always viewed the Sith as the ultimate purveyors of The Dark Side. They have such an understanding of the Dark Side that it goes beyond anything just a simple evil character could conceive. I just really like the idea of the Rule of Two though and the concept that there are only 2 people in the entire galaxy that have this immense and powerful understanding of the corrupting side of the Force. That is just a purely fascinating concept! All others who use the Dark Side are just pretenders and don't know squat next to the Sith!

However, I also think such understanding is false! Because the Dark Side is just a small part of the Force, so to not know all of the Force and just focus on one aspect is limiting. The flip side is, Jedi know the whole Force and understand that the Dark Side is a corrupting influence on the Force. They don't need to have embraced the dark side to understand it because it is a simple concept.

BUT, as the last few episodes of TCW showed, there is SO much more that neither the Sith nor the Jedi are aware of when it comes to the Force. And I think that plays into the Jedi's downfall ultimately, which I think Yoda comes to realize.

Gosh I love Star Wars!

That's the Jedi perspective.

The Sith would argue - as Sidious does in Ep III - that the Jedi have a narrow view of the force.

The Sith aren't afraid of the Dark Side - the Jedi live in fear of it. The Sith are willing to open themselves up to the full spectrum of the force instead of limiting themselves to just the "light" side. It's the Sith who are more balanced!

I think this is generally the line of thinking Sidious lead Anakin down culminating in Ep III where Sidious could reveal himself to Anakin and make the argument face to face. It also might be the source of Anakin's accusation that Obi-wan was holding him back which has it's culmination in A New Hope where he sees himself as the master instead of Obi-wan.

However, in the context of the films it is clear that Sidious is lying in order to manipulate Anakin in order to get him to think that the Jedi are holding him back. I think the Sith rationalize their actions to fit their own selfish goals. So you are correct a Sith would argue the opposite - that the Jedi have a narrow view - but again that is the truth that the Sith/Sidious clings to. Or a blatant lie to manipulate Anakin. In simple terms I think the Sith are generally "right" when it comes to the Dark Side, whereas the Jedi are generally "right" when it comes to the Force as a whole. I think the distinction is significant. Not to say either side is infallible though.

Palpatine kills Windu, and Anakin just stands there like a wanker. He knew he'd effed up. He also knew he didn't stand a chance where Windu failed, but that doesn't mean he should simply give in to being some ancient raisin's lapdog.

I hate everything about Anakin in the OT. Hate. Everything.

It really is too bad, because now, every time I see Darth Vader, I think "Wuss."

Has anything in the EU actually clarified what is meant by the force being out of balance? It's touched on a bit in the Clone Wars cartoon but I don't know of anything definitive out there (but I don't follow much of the EU).

I like that the movies left that vague because it gives fans something to ponder and kvetch over.

In the novel Darth Plagueis, Plagueis and Palpatine actively use their powers to shift the Force (probably the Cosmic Force) so that the dark side is the predominant power. This weakens the abilities of the Jedi to use the Force, something they complain about multiple times in the prequels.

I always took it as the prophecy was to bring balance to the force and that the Jedi interpreted that to mean destroy the sith because they see themselves as balance. In reality though there were thousands of jedi and only two sith. Anakin effectively destroyed the jedi down to a couple and thus the force was more in balance and in the end the Jedi and Sith are wiped out. Luke wasn't a real Jedi by the prequel definition IMO. He had a bunch of their training, but wasn't raised in their ideals.

In the novel Darth Plagueis, Plagueis and Palpatine actively use their powers to shift the Force (probably the Cosmic Force) so that the dark side is the predominant power. This weakens the abilities of the Jedi to use the Force, something they complain about multiple times in the prequels.

That struck me as just trying to retcon where the prequels didn't make sense.

$0.02

In the novel Darth Plagueis, Plagueis and Palpatine actively use their powers to shift the Force (probably the Cosmic Force) so that the dark side is the predominant power. This weakens the abilities of the Jedi to use the Force, something they complain about multiple times in the prequels.

That struck me as just trying to retcon where the prequels didn't make sense.

$0.02

You pretty much just summarized the book. They could have put that as a selling point on the back.

You pretty much just summarized the book. They could have put that as a selling point on the back.

I actually gave up reading material published after the prequels because of this kind of thing. It awlays comes off as ham-fisted and sh*tty.

I'm hoping JJ just pretends that the prequels didn't happen instead of trying to draw from them. Because a sure-fire way to ruin VII is to shoehorn Jar Jar Binks into that ****.

There are bits of the prequels that aren't bad, and some of the bridge fiction between the prequels and the OT is fun. However, I do agree that the prequels also added a lot of drek to Star Wars.

The way Lucas has spoken about it, "bringing balance" meant getting rid of the Sith.

Which Anakin did. Prophecy fulfilled. Anakin is the Chosen One. QED

Yep. Prophecies are pesky things. Even when they *seem* clear, they're usually not.

Had Anakin *not* turned, the Emperor (or his apprentice du jour) would likely have remained hidden, thus preventing the (at least temporary) destruction of the Sith. It took getting the Sith into a position of power, to bring them to a point where you could strike at them directly and hope to succeed.

It's a shame that it took the near destruction of the Jedi to do it, but, like I said, prophecies are pesky things.

If Anakin had not turned the he would have helped Windu kill Sidious.

Or are you saying if Anakin had never flirted with the Dark Side then Sidious would never have exposed himself?

Prophecies are tricky things which makes them great in stories - I view it as Anakin is the Chosen One and that his first opportunity to bring balance to the force was when he walked in on Windu and Sidious. He chose the dark side and so a greater imbalance was unleashed until his second chance to bring balance when he chose the light side.

Btw, thanks for running some numbers.

Had Anakin not been who he was (and easily corruptable as a result), the Palpatine most certainly *wouldn't* have revealed himself as Sith to Anakin, anymore than he chose to reveal himself to Obi-Wan, Yoda, or any number of *other* Jedi. He demonstrated himself more than capable of concealing his true identity from even the most powerful and observant Jedi Masters on the Jedi Council, even when discussing important matters with them *in person*.

I have been following this thread with interest as we are just about to get heavily in to using the force, so for clarification I had the opportunity to ask Sam Stewart the question directly. My question was;

"Also, there is an ongoing debate on the forum about how powerful force powers actually are. The main question is can the same upgrade be activated multiple times based on the number of force points rolled? so if you have bought two range upgrades for move, if you roll 3 force points could you activate the move power and then activate the move upgrade twice, increasing the range by 4 (by 2 for each range upgrade activation)? I am asking this as the answer will be crucial to ensure that we have the right understanding for how force powers actually work."

His answer surprised me somewhat; "And that is correct; as long as it says you can trigger the upgrade multiple times, it works the way you describe." Which contradicts Dono's first post?

I have followed this up with a question citing the discrepancy but I haven't heard anything back yet, I will update when I hear anything.

Bumping to see if this was ever addressed again.