I've also wondered what exactly "The Plan" was. Luke was thrown into Obi-wan's path by events. Obi-wan took the opportunity to begin training Luke but he didn't appear to have much of a plan.

Perhaps they got "The Plan" from the same guy that sold a similarly named work to the Cylons...

And the same place Luke came up with the plan to rescue Hancicle from Jabba. Seriously, try explaining that plan to someone like its real and you're laying it out. You'll sound like a total nut.

I pretty firmly believe the intent back in the 80s was that Ben and Yoda legit wanted Luke to destroy Vader, and they withheld his true identity as his father so that he could do the task without the burden of emotional attachment.

Now the new interpretation, via Dave Filoni, is that it was all sort of another test for Luke. If he was to truly become a Jedi worthy of that title and rebuilding the order he would need to make the decision to save his father on his own. Overall I like this better.

Also brought up by Filoni is the idea that Yoda's experiences in the Clone Wars and his failure to stop Sidious is what causes the shift in personality between his prequel and original trilogy self.

Also brought up by Filoni is the idea that Yoda's experiences in the Clone Wars and his failure to stop Sidious is what causes the shift in personality between his prequel and original trilogy self.

That and living in a mosquito infested swamp for 20 years by himself................I'd be talking backwards to myself and laughing for no reason too.......

Now the new interpretation, via Dave Filoni, is that it was all sort of another test for Luke. If he was to truly become a Jedi worthy of that title and rebuilding the order he would need to make the decision to save his father on his own.

Seriously? Eyeroll. Definitely comes off as more of the "de-gritting" of the grittier portions of the OT that GL is so fond of these days. More of the same "Greedo shot first" BS. I think that seriously detracts from the characters, their perspectives on the state of the galaxy, and the choices they have to make.

Perhaps the 'Plan' was simply a wait and see approach. To be honest in the OT they had not established clones at all, except to a vague reference to the war. If Obi-Wan and Yoda had just hung out until Vader and Palpatine kicked, and considering both the extent of their injuries that could be anytime. Also Palpatine didn't seem to stable in OT so there was a pretty good chance he would just off Vader. However, it was Leia that jump started Plan B - Oops we died (sorry bad joke) and Obi-Wan had to ad lib the new plan mostly. I mean he couldn't pick up a commlink and dial up Yoda to have a chat. Also if you go off the other trilogy you can see how much Obi-wan hates ad-libbing over deviating from a plan.

To quote another movie Ian Malcolm from Jurassic Park "Everyone was so busy trying to see if you could no one stop to consider if you should!" That what Force powers always seemed to me was something that you could use them to force smash that blast door open or you could push the button with your finger. Also in the OT the one thing you don't see is the strain and focus you see in the newer trilogy. In the OT Vader just lowers his lightsaber in Empire and proceeds to pummel Luke with boxes using the force. However new trilogy you see hand gestures and a bit of focus before things go off.

Now here is one that is in the movies that never made sense to me. Obi-wan went all limb chopping happy on Anakin. The thing of it was is after doing that he didn't do the humane thing and kill Anakin with a quick clean death. Now the argument of leaving him for dead is valid except for the fact that he already was claiming the Republic as HIS Empire. Meaning by letting him live Obi-Wan was knowingly leaving the galaxy at Vader's mercy. That he assumed that Yoda had not failed also adds credence to needing to kill Vader. Now if he had assumed that Yoda had failed and the Emperor was still alive why didn't he just finish off Vader rejoin Yoda and then they go take another run at Palpatine. It just didn't make much sense to me why they just gave up at the end of the third movie.

The other flaw in the 'Plan' was what if Luke had killed Vader (even by accident) and now he there facing off against Palpatine solo. Well there went the last Jedi right there. Which leads me to the question of considering Yoda and Obi-wan had ran into Force Lightning before a heads up would of been really good there. I think Luke would of really appreciated that. I am sure if he hadn't been happy to be alive he would of walk over and three stooge slap the three of spirit them for not giving him the heads up.

I tend to take Obi-wan at his word in that scene.

Really? You're taking the "point of view" guy at his word?

Obi-Wan is like Spock in a LOT of ways. They both have an incredibly dry sense of humor, they both love to omit facts and deny that this constitutes "lying", and they both pretend to dislike antics and adventure even though they pal around with people like Anakin and Kirk.

At the end of the day, you can trust two things;

1. Obi-Wan/Spock are great friends to have who will frequently piss you off but never betray you and...

2. Obi-Wan/Spock are always hiding something 100% of the time.

I tend to take Obi-wan at his word in that scene.

Really? You're taking the "point of view" guy at his word?

That's a good point. This is the guy that gave Luke a false truth upon their first real conversation, and only bothered to admit that he'd "embellished" the details when Luke directly called him on it. At that point, Ben probably felt that any advice he could give on how to deal with Vader would be suspect... and he was probably aware that his own feelings of betrayal had played a role in his initial deception. Smart thing would have been to say that Anakin had been betrayed by the Emperor (which would be a lot closer to the truth), and simply like Luke draw his own conclusion that the Emperor was responsible for his father's murder. Of course, those elements weren't really in play back when the movies were filmed, so it's simply a case of hindsight at play, with us the audience applying information gained/revealed three decades after the films were released.

I still like the "original" idea that Yoda forbade Obi-wan from telling him the truth. Revisionist Clone Wars regardless.

I still like the "original" idea that Yoda forbade Obi-wan from telling him the truth. Revisionist Clone Wars regardless.

Well, it could just be that Luke did indeed rush off before Ben and Yoda felt he was mature enough to handle the full impact of the truth and accept that they had their reasons for withholding that information from him.

There was an Infinities version of A New Hope where Luke's shot missed, and he wound up actually undergoing his full training with Yoda after being dropped off by Han and Chewie. In this timeline, when the big truth that Vader was his father was revealed to him... Luke took it pretty well, accepting that had he been told the actual truth at the time, he would have taken it very badly and that his mentors were right to wait until he had the emotional maturity to accept the burden that knowledge carried.

A bit off-topic but I understand the no-bathroom in SW theory. It like in that movies where someone is kissing a girl/boy and, suddenly (what a surprise!) his/her boyfriend/girlfriend appears and catch them! "How can you dare?!" XDDDD

Well, the James Bond immortality sample is another sample. Star Wars is like those movies. If you try to emulate them you will get those results. You can try to be realist as a Storm Trooper and shoot and Luke's legs while the door is half opened... or simulate the movies and let him go and let the good guys win XD

Is the SW feel

I will thank and explanation to update my theory but, until the moment, he only have seen defense against Push/Slam, Lightning and Mind Trick (maybe I miss something) but Grip/Choke seems almost unstoppable. The only way to cut that power is broke users focus, like Obi and Ani with Savage choking the toydarian king.

Expand my mind! Put a bathroom/refresher (thanks Revanchist7 XD) on my games please!

Tarkin said of the Jedi "their fire has gone out of the universe". Obi-wan and Yoda seem to agree. However Obi-wan also said "so, what I said was true, from a certain point of view".

I don't think we can be certain that any of these three are correct about the extinction of every Jedi. After all Sidious managed to hide from both Yoda and Kenobi, Vader did not know of Kenobi's survival until he sensed him on the Death Star, and of Luke sensed only that "the Force is strong in this one".

If Kenobi and Yoda managed to survive Order 66, and "General" Kenobi's whereabouts were known to at least Leia, it seems highly probable that other Jedi survived the purge.

Yeah there are a number of other survivors in the EU (spoilers: mostly killed by Vader later) as well as depictions of Vader's obsessive pursuit of rumors of Kenobi until the Emperor basically says "stahp."

I tend to take Obi-wan at his word in that scene.

Really? You're taking the "point of view" guy at his word?

That's a good point. This is the guy that gave Luke a false truth upon their first real conversation, and only bothered to admit that he'd "embellished" the details when Luke directly called him on it. At that point, Ben probably felt that any advice he could give on how to deal with Vader would be suspect... and he was probably aware that his own feelings of betrayal had played a role in his initial deception. Smart thing would have been to say that Anakin had been betrayed by the Emperor (which would be a lot closer to the truth), and simply like Luke draw his own conclusion that the Emperor was responsible for his father's murder. Of course, those elements weren't really in play back when the movies were filmed, so it's simply a case of hindsight at play, with us the audience applying information gained/revealed three decades after the films were released.

Ha ha. Well played sir.

So now everything Obi-wan said is suspect? He's a zen grandmaster always playing 3D chess and never really says what he means?

He said he didn't tell Luke the truth because he didn't want Luke's emotions getting in the way of dealing with Vader. Obi-wan's perspective is that Anakin is no more and that he's not redeemable. Only Vader - the guy who slaughtered Jedi children and has been part of oppressing the galaxy - remains and he doesn't want Luke getting sentimental.

Or is this another level of indirection for some opaque purpose?

I think the simple explanation - the one Obi-wan gives - is the best.

And most importantly, Luke seemed to take Obi-wan at his word regarding his explanation. Did this give Luke some pause in his perspective on other things Obi-wan said? Probably, and this was perhaps part of a larger lesson Obi-wan was trying to teach. But regarding the issue of Vader being Lukes father, Luke seems to take Obi-wan at his word about Obi-wan's deception and the reasons for it.

The crux of the matter is that Obi-wan is clearly worried that Luke's unwillingness to kill Vader means the Emperor will win. So you're saying that Obi-wan is disingenuous with this concern and is using it as a means of teaching or manipulating Luke further? So why then did he lie to Luke about Vader, if his explanation isn't the truth?

It's a movie that's essentially a space opera. Too many layers if indirection and you lose your audience and it really doesn't fit the space opera mold. It's fun to think more deeply about it and to expand on it but fundamentally the source material - the movies - weren't written this way. At some point the characters have to have some exposition of what they think. We don't get to look into their minds like an author can in a novel - and even then things aren't necessarily dispositive. We only know what they say and usually dialogue is meant to be "honest" in this way because that's the way the medium works.

And lets be honest - a lot of these details Lucas made up in the process and he's changed his mind on a bunch of things after the fact as well. Real question - when filming A New Hope did Lucas know that Vader was really Luke's father? My impression is that he came up with this after ANH.

I pretty firmly believe the intent back in the 80s was that Ben and Yoda legit wanted Luke to destroy Vader, and they withheld his true identity as his father so that he could do the task without the burden of emotional attachment.

Now the new interpretation, via Dave Filoni, is that it was all sort of another test for Luke. If he was to truly become a Jedi worthy of that title and rebuilding the order he would need to make the decision to save his father on his own. Overall I like this better.

Also brought up by Filoni is the idea that Yoda's experiences in the Clone Wars and his failure to stop Sidious is what causes the shift in personality between his prequel and original trilogy self.

I don't doubt you but would you please provide some links for Dave Filoni saying this or the works they appear in?

Thanks.

I think it all boils down to Obi Wan's line: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." I believe this is the specific reason why Anakin's bit of dialogue in Sith is, "From my point of view the Jedi are evil!" And if you really watch the prequels you can see how Anakin's view is shaped. In Sith, when he burst into Sidious's office, he did not see Sidious kill 3 other Jedi masters, all he saw was Windu standing over a "helpless" and unarmed Chancellor Palpatine. He resented Obi Wan and the Jedi Council for holding him back. So even though he was motivated by his own selfishness, the signs are all there to turn him against the Jedi. Especially with Sidious manipulating him and feeding into his resentment and anger.

That is just one example of how Obi Wan's line from Jedi plays as a theme but I think it can be applied to all the characters within context of the films. Outside of the films it starts to break down.

But I think this is an insightful bit of wisdom and a warning on Obi Wan's part.

I think it interesting in Episode 4, when Luke askes "How did my father die?" Alec Guiness/Kenobi pauses as if he is figuring out what exactly he should say. It strikes me that he's labouring over how to phrase it. Which while it may have been a dramatic pause on Guinness' part, it lends weight to the later revelations.

"Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." ...

But I think this is an insightful bit of wisdom and a warning on Obi Wan's part.

I really liked that exchange with Obi Wan.

This might be a little OT but I've never liked the way the "Dark Side" and the Sith are portrayed as evil for evil's sake. Nor do I like how they use the term "Dark Side", it smacks of shallow writing. The use of the term "Dark Side" is really just Jedi propaganda and the Sith, if they had better writers, would likely use just "The Force" as the Jedi mostly do except when trying to delineate themselves from their enemy. When I hear a Sith say "Dark Side" I figure their just doing it to mock the Jedi by belittling their narrow vision of the Force (or bad writing).

I've always thought of the Sith as ruthless pragmatists that are open about their end justifies the means use of the Force where as the Jedi are more circumspect. The Sith discovered how the Force reacts to raw emotion and choose to harness this power while accepting that there will be some collateral damage rather than trying to gain a more complete control by limiting themselves to emotionless submission to the Force. They may understand that the control they would gain by limiting the base emotions could be useful they just don't see the point. From their perspective they control the Force and the Jedi submit to it, which is not far from the truth as such things go. They also understand that they may at times loose control of the Force when their emotions run high but they accept this trade off of Power over control as long as it doesn't interfere with their goals. In essence a Jedi will accept that there is a wall between them and what needs to be accomplished and use the force to cut a door through that wall only the size needed to get through it, a Sith will just knock the wall down.

I've always viewed The Dark Side as an entity that has a will of it's own that forcefully exerts its will on Force Sensitive individuals in order suck more energy out of the galaxy through said individual. Hence why Jedi feel there is no redeeming a Sith. I've also always viewed the Sith as the ultimate purveyors of The Dark Side. They have such an understanding of the Dark Side that it goes beyond anything just a simple evil character could conceive. I just really like the idea of the Rule of Two though and the concept that there are only 2 people in the entire galaxy that have this immense and powerful understanding of the corrupting side of the Force. That is just a purely fascinating concept! All others who use the Dark Side are just pretenders and don't know squat next to the Sith!

However, I also think such understanding is false! Because the Dark Side is just a small part of the Force, so to not know all of the Force and just focus on one aspect is limiting. The flip side is, Jedi know the whole Force and understand that the Dark Side is a corrupting influence on the Force. They don't need to have embraced the dark side to understand it because it is a simple concept.

BUT, as the last few episodes of TCW showed, there is SO much more that neither the Sith nor the Jedi are aware of when it comes to the Force. And I think that plays into the Jedi's downfall ultimately, which I think Yoda comes to realize.

Gosh I love Star Wars!

I think it interesting in Episode 4, when Luke askes "How did my father die?" Alec Guiness/Kenobi pauses as if he is figuring out what exactly he should say. It strikes me that he's labouring over how to phrase it. Which while it may have been a dramatic pause on Guinness' part, it lends weight to the later revelations.

YES! It's a fantastic moment isn't it!? It is almost as if Obi Wan knew who Vader really was! That maybe Lucas DID have it all figured out from the beginning! So good!

I also think, the scene in Jedi between Luke and Leia discussing their mother becomes much more sad when we realize that Leia's memories could be false, or perhaps she is remembering her adopted mother. Ugh, heartbreaking. You can see the longing in Luke's eyes, how much he really wants to have a connection to his parents.

****, now I need to go watch Jedi!

I am sad the future Star Wars fans will never again be able to have the wonderful arguments that we did right after Empire Strikes Back. Was Vader really Luke's father or was he just playing mind games to turn Luke to the Dark Side?

Now it is established firmly that Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader and that yes, he is Luke's father.

Does Leia know she is adopted? She refers to Nail Organa as "my father" and speaks to Luke of remembering their mother.

It does seem to me after watching the whole series that the Jedi Council was right, Anakin Skywalker was the Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force. What they did not realize was that during the reign of the Jedi the Balance had swung to far to the Light Side. Thus Anakin/Vader first over corrected by destroying the Jedi and swinging the balance to the Dark Side then brought things back to center with his destruction of the Emperor and personal redemption/salvation at Endor.

I am sad the future Star Wars fans will never again be able to have the wonderful arguments that we did right after Empire Strikes Back. Was Vader really Luke's father or was he just playing mind games to turn Luke to the Dark Side?

Now it is established firmly that Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader and that yes, he is Luke's father.

Does Leia know she is adopted? She refers to Nail Organa as "my father" and speaks to Luke of remembering their mother.

She may not know of her adoption til Luke tells her. I don't think that's very clear. And the memories spoken of during RotJ couldn't logically (or should I say, realistically by IRL standards) be of Padme: people don't remember their first few minutes of post-birth life. Not that I think that at the time RotJ was filmed, that it was all planned for Luke and Leia's mother to die in childbirth, as opposed to linger on for some time (which is what Leia's memory implies, if it's not of her adoptive mother...but her adoptive mother died when the Death Star destroyed Alderaan, not before).

But maybe the "memories" were some kind of Force Thing.

It does seem to me after watching the whole series that the Jedi Council was right, Anakin Skywalker was the Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force. What they did not realize was that during the reign of the Jedi the Balance had swung to far to the Light Side. Thus Anakin/Vader first over corrected by destroying the Jedi and swinging the balance to the Dark Side then brought things back to center with his destruction of the Emperor and personal redemption/salvation at Endor.

That's often been my impression of it actually.

I'm not so sure you can explain the Chosen One's prophecy like a scale (one side dark, the other light), and Anakin bringing it back in balance...

I always thought that Anakin at brought balance to the force because you could fall from Light to Darkness, but never from Darkness back to light. So the true imbalance was that once you fall down the dark path, forever will it dominate you...

When Anakin redeems himself in RotJ, he goes from Darkness to Light... Now both sides are equaly strong, because it is possible to go from one to the other... not locked into one forever.

I see it like the Ying and the Yang... or 2 dragons eating each others tail... but if the first dragon cannot eat the second dragons tail, then the second will eventually eat the first dragon whole... now if both dragon can eat each others tail, then neither will become bigger then the other... In SW, it means that the light can claim fallen jedi, and the dark side can claim jedi too... a circle of falling and redeeming... both possible...

The way Lucas has spoken about it, "bringing balance" meant getting rid of the Sith.

I always thought that Anakin at brought balance to the force because you could fall from Light to Darkness, but never from Darkness back to light. So the true imbalance was that once you fall down the dark path, forever will it dominate you...

There are other examples of characters who went varying stages of Dark and came back to the Light in the EU. Ulic Qel-Droma, Revan, even Luke. Probably more that I'm forgetting. It's not a common thing but Anakin is not the only one.