Indeed Doc. I now have my hands on Jewel of Yavin, and without throwing out too many spoilers, there's reason to believe that Force & Destiny may include lightsaber techniques in choices made around the development of one's lightsaber skill... but I suspect it's not going to be too specific either.

I'm torn.

On one hand I think there should be a difference between a self-taught outcast and a Jedi master when it comes to throwing around X-Wings with the Force.

... on the other hand, there is a small voice in my head that says, "No! No different. Only different in your mind."

When the book is out, I suspect that we will have to unlearn what we have learned.

Well, I think the difference is going to come down to Force Rating.

The self-taught outcast (if the player stays true to form and doesn't simply buy more than the Exile and Emergent) is probably going to cap a FR 3.

The Jedi Master probably will go up to FR 5 or 6, and thus be far more powerful. But at the same time, the Jedi don't have a total monopoly on mastery of the Force, so it could be possible for a self-taught outcast to gain power comparable to a Jedi Master. But it shouldn't be easy to accomplish.

Well, I think the difference is going to come down to Force Rating.

The self-taught outcast (if the player stays true to form and doesn't simply buy more than the Exile and Emergent) is probably going to cap a FR 3.

To me, self-taught doesn't necessarily mean 'dabbles in the Force as a secondary occupation'. I believe that a self-taught Force-user could end up as powerful as any Jedi Master or Sith Lord, but would likely develop along a somewhat different path owing to the needs of the individual and his/her experiences.

Well, I think the difference is going to come down to Force Rating.

The self-taught outcast (if the player stays true to form and doesn't simply buy more than the Exile and Emergent) is probably going to cap a FR 3.

To me, self-taught doesn't necessarily mean 'dabbles in the Force as a secondary occupation'. I believe that a self-taught Force-user could end up as powerful as any Jedi Master or Sith Lord, but would likely develop along a somewhat different path owing to the needs of the individual and his/her experiences.

Indeed. While Jedi are generally expected to know the force the best, even obi-wan as a spirit could not sense that it was faders destiny to be redeemed. Thus while it will be a longer road, the outcasts probably could make it as high as they want, it is just very much a slower path, one that is less frequently taken. Indeed the previous classes could quite easily cover a range of archetypes. I would be disappointed if force and destiny is just Jedi.

I don't see how Sense (EDIT: Influence) is overpowered.

It requires a Discipline v Discipline check. The GM could easily throw in difficultly dice and upgrade the check depending on the feasibility of what the mind trick is doing.

It's not an "I win" button as far as I can see.

This is not the post you're looking for.

(Double post)

I don't see how Sense is overpowered.

Commit 2 Force Dice.

Upgrade 2 outgoing attacks per turn, twice.

Upgrade 2 incoming attacks per turn, twice.

I don't see how Sense is overpowered.

Commit 2 Force Dice.

Upgrade 2 outgoing attacks per turn, twice.

Upgrade 2 incoming attacks per turn, twice.

I was referring specifically to the Sense (EDIT: Influence) control power that allows you to put someone in a specific emotional state or make them believe something that's untrue.

But I also don't see how what you mentioned is overpowered either. Or is every aspect of every force power overpowered? I think I've seen them all described this way now.

To get the upgrades you mentioned you need to get to the top of the Talent Tree to get +1 force rating, commit both of them (so now you can't use force powers) and get to the top of that particular Sense force power path.

Sure it's potent but you've spent a lot of points getting there.

I consider it very strong to overpowered simply because it can be "always on" without depleting a resource that can affect a character's health and consciousness (Strain). Not being able to use Force powers is a trivial drawback when you're already much less likely to be hurt in combat. Or, hell, don't upgrade outgoing attacks. Double-upgrade against incoming attacks (which is still stackable with voluntary Strain defensive Talents) is pretty potent. But for 50 XP + the cost to Spec in? Meh.

I consider it very strong to overpowered simply because it can be "always on" without depleting a resource that can affect a character's health and consciousness (Strain). Not being able to use Force powers is a trivial drawback when you're already much less likely to be hurt in combat. Or, hell, don't upgrade outgoing attacks. Double-upgrade against incoming attacks (which is still stackable with voluntary Strain defensive Talents) is pretty potent. But for 50 XP + the cost to Spec in? Meh.

As an inherent drawback, consider that if Force-use has the potential to attract the attention of Force-using Jedi-hunters, then an 'always-on' power is always pinging on their radar.

I don't see how Sense is overpowered.

Commit 2 Force Dice.

Upgrade 2 outgoing attacks per turn, twice.

Upgrade 2 incoming attacks per turn, twice.

I was referring specifically to the Sense control power that allows you to put someone in a specific emotional state or make them believe something that's untrue.

But I also don't see how what you mentioned is overpowered either. Or is every aspect of every force power overpowered? I think I've seen them all described this way now.

To get the upgrades you mentioned you need to get to the top of the Talent Tree to get +1 force rating, commit both of them (so now you can't use force powers) and get to the top of that particular Sense force power path.

Sure it's potent but you've spent a lot of points getting there.

You're describing Influence, not Sense. Sense is the combat upgrades and reading minds.

Be nice to have solid mechanics for sensing and hiding your presence in the Force. I bet that will be in F&D though.

And always-on is sort of tongue-in-cheek but it's relative. If it's effectively always on in combat, even if combat is just minutes a day, then it's pulling its weight nicely even if you aren't "broadcasting" the active power when you sit down for tea.

I don't see how Sense is overpowered.

Commit 2 Force Dice.

Upgrade 2 outgoing attacks per turn, twice.

Upgrade 2 incoming attacks per turn, twice.

I was referring specifically to the Sense control power that allows you to put someone in a specific emotional state or make them believe something that's untrue.

But I also don't see how what you mentioned is overpowered either. Or is every aspect of every force power overpowered? I think I've seen them all described this way now.

To get the upgrades you mentioned you need to get to the top of the Talent Tree to get +1 force rating, commit both of them (so now you can't use force powers) and get to the top of that particular Sense force power path.

Sure it's potent but you've spent a lot of points getting there.

You're describing Influence, not Sense. Sense is the combat upgrades and reading minds.

Ah, yeah. Good catch. I should have said Influence.

I'm still not convinced Sense is broken.

's fine.

To clarify maximum Sense...

You can upgrade twice an attack pool against you - two attacks per round.

You can upgrade twice your attack (or action) pool on two actions per round.

How do you get two actions though?

That's a nice defensive ability.

I don't see how it only costs 50XP. You still need a +1 to force rating.

To clarify maximum Sense...

You can upgrade twice an attack pool against you - two attacks per round.

You can upgrade twice your attack (or action) pool on two actions per round.

How do you get two actions though?

That's a nice defensive ability.

I don't see how it only costs 50XP. You still need a +1 to force rating.

Force Move activated twice in an action. And I'm sure that much like Explorers can kick up their maximum Manuevers with a Signature Ability, some Career will likely get one for actions down the road.

To clarify maximum Sense...

How do you get two actions though?

Improved Field Commander.

You have to remember, the entire point of them making them separate books ( ie the rogues, soldiers, and Jedi) was due to power levels. The first GenCon they said this flat out. I don't expect Jedi to be on par with what we have currently. They will be power houses, and that's why it's recemmended to keep them in the F&D setting. Don't get your Boba Fett goo on the light sabers.

You have to remember, the entire point of them making them separate books ( ie the rogues, soldiers, and Jedi) was due to power levels. The first GenCon they said this flat out. I don't expect Jedi to be on par with what we have currently. They will be power houses, and that's why it's recemmended to keep them in the F&D setting. Don't get your Boba Fett goo on the light sabers.

This Mando will take the Jedi on don't cry too hard when your precious Jedi Weapon dangles from my belt.

I don't expect Jedi to be on par with what we have currently. They will be power houses, and that's why it's recemmended to keep them in the F&D setting.

Which goes against what they actually have said. That the three games will integrate and work together.

You have to remember, the entire point of them making them separate books ( ie the rogues, soldiers, and Jedi) was due to power levels. The first GenCon they said this flat out. I don't expect Jedi to be on par with what we have currently. They will be power houses, and that's why it's recemmended to keep them in the F&D setting. Don't get your Boba Fett goo on the light sabers.

The point was to cater to different themes and storylines, not specifically to different power levels.

You have to remember, the entire point of them making them separate books ( ie the rogues, soldiers, and Jedi) was due to power levels. The first GenCon they said this flat out. I don't expect Jedi to be on par with what we have currently. They will be power houses, and that's why it's recemmended to keep them in the F&D setting. Don't get your Boba Fett goo on the light sabers.

While that was the approach used for the WH40K line, the fact that PCs in EotE and AoR are pretty much on the same tier suggests that FFG is indeed trying to make these three games fully compatible with each other, giving the GM the option to draw from all three core rulebooks for their groups if they so choose.

I've little doubt that F&D PCs are going to have a leg-up on EotE/AoR PCs, but the disparity certainly won't be that of a Dark Heresy PC compared to a Deathwatch PC.

FFG StarWars is like every other RPG that has proceeded it. There will be potentials for imbalance at the gaming table. No system is perfect. No system has perfect balance.

And the solution is what it has always been: A GM and play group that sets the expectations and ground rules for the game.

You don't want the potential to be flinging around Silhouette 3 or 4 objects doing 30 to 40 damage? Then house rule it: you can't use objects above a certain Silhouette as weapons. Maybe make some of the upgrades cheaper because now they're not as useful.

Don't like Influence being used to dominate situations? Make the discipline check harder. Or better yet lay out the expectation of the setting limits - as you interpret them and want in the game - on such powers.

Or make the blanket rule that you cannot spend multiple force points to activate an upgrade more than once.

If you have a player who wants to be throwing around tie fighters in combat, wants to dominate every scenario with Influence, etc then the problem is not the system the problem is the player (assuming of course this isn't the kind of game the table wants to have).

To clarify maximum Sense...

You can upgrade twice an attack pool against you - two attacks per round.

You can upgrade twice your attack (or action) pool on two actions per round.

How do you get two actions though?

That's a nice defensive ability.

I don't see how it only costs 50XP. You still need a +1 to force rating.

Force Move activated twice in an action. And I'm sure that much like Explorers can kick up their maximum Manuevers with a Signature Ability, some Career will likely get one for actions down the road.

+1 action per round sounds pretty broken especially compared to +1 maneuver.

I don't think there will be a need to house rule anything. If a player was focused on just raising their FR for the sake of it, that's going to be a significant xp investment. If FFG makes career/specs in F&D, then it's going to be the xp to get to the FR's plus the xp for adding specs. Looking at BH if you just focused on Dedication bonuses as a comparison, that's 300 xp if all you spent was xp to achieve all 3 Dedication bonuses. To the exclusion of all else. Then there would be the investment in Force powers themselves, and the fact that you're good for little else beyond what you can achieve with your starting skills and characteristics. Kind of a boring one trick pony really for what would be hundreds of xp.