I don't think a lot of this is about house ruling at all and more about very vague open ended rules. In regards to the email question Sam answered for DM, without seeing precisely what was asked and the answer, along with follow up if I wasn't satisfied with with either the question or answer, at the end of the day means very little in my eyes. A written example of how many pips it takes to do 'X' is clearly required.

The clearest RAW ruling for this is found on page 278 of the Core Rulebook, which says - in context:

Most of a power's abilities require one or more Force Points to activate. Unless otherwise specified, each ability may be activated multiple times.

I'm not sure why this sentence (and the surrounding text) seems clear to me and not some others, but it looks here as if the author is calling the first rank in a power tree a "power" and everything below it one of that "power's abilities". Since the sentence about activating abilities more than once is written in this context, it seems clear to me that the original intent was that Move (for instance) could not be activated more than once, while other abilities in its tree could, should the player be able to pay the Force Point costs.

If the developers changed their minds later, I'm okay with that, but rules-as-written seems pretty clear, when read in context.

The clearest RAW ruling for this is found on page 278 of the Core Rulebook, which says - in context:

Most of a power's abilities require one or more Force Points to activate. Unless otherwise specified, each ability may be activated multiple times.

I'm not sure why this sentence (and the surrounding text) seems clear to me and not some others, but it looks here as if the author is calling the first rank in a power tree a "power" and everything below it one of that "power's abilities". Since the sentence about activating abilities more than once is written in this context, it seems clear to me that the original intent was that More (for instance) could not be activated more than once, while other abilities in its tree could, should the player be able to pay the Force Point costs.

If the developers changed their minds later, I'm okay with that, but rules-as-written seems pretty clear, when read in context.

Because some people want to be able to juggle SDs that's why. Because some people think in a game whose developers have prided themselves on proving balance that it would be reasonable for a Force Sensitive Exile to be able to lift a silhouette 8 target with 4 FPs.

To everyone who is trying to house rule something that is already in the rules and literally 3 people actually read it, your fear and hatred are blinding you.

The question about activating upgrades multiple times was answered 12 pages ago. This happened because I and about 2 other people (as far as I can tell) read the preamble in the Force chapter and noticed a ruling that says you can activate an upgrade multiple times unless told otherwise. Donovon asked the designer/developer about this when I pointed this out to him in another thread, and now we have an answer.

Deal with it.

At any table I play at, I would ask that the GM follow the rules of the game, as these rules are a collective agreement between the players and the GM. Straying from them takes options away from the players and limits their actions, since they no longer have that collective understanding of thr rules.

Furthermore, as I have stated repeatedly here and on other forums, while it is fine to make a ruling on something in the absence of rules, you are not a game developer or a lawyer. You do not know the damage you are doing to the rules by constantly changing things because you are afraid of something or because you want to spite your players. By limiting Move to a silhouette of 4, or by forcing additional strain, you are acting directly against the rules that are actually quite clear on this. By doing things like this, you are creating a butterfly effect, not twining in problems.

The reality if this ability is that someone can move a slightly larger object, should they be able to generate enough points to activate the upgrade multiple times. No one, anywhere, ever, is going to be able to generate enough points to throw a Star Destroyer from surface to orbit. It's never going to happen, so these fears and knee jerk reactions to house rule things are uncalled for.

Can we please just drop this and move on?

Hi there! I've been a GM for over 18 years, I've done freelance work for Wizards of the Coast, and I've run games with Dave Arneson (google him) as a player.

You're right, I'm not a game developer for Edge of the Empire, nor am I lawyer (not sure why that matters, but I digress). Yet believe it or not I'm experienced enough to determine what does and does not work at my table. Crazy, huh?

Thanks for the free advice I'll be ignoring, though!

Hi there! I've been a GM for over 18 years, I've done freelance work for Wizards of the Coast, and I've run games with Dave Arneson (google him) as a player.

You're right, I'm not a game developer for Edge of the Empire, nor am I lawyer (not sure why that matters, but I digress). Yet believe it or not I'm experienced enough to determine what does and does not work at my table. Crazy, huh?

Thanks for the free advice I'll be ignoring, though!

I really don't care who you've GMed for. You are trying to provoke an argument and troll me. I have said what I wanted to say. The god complex does not stand with me at any table I play at. If I play at your table, you will respect me as a part of the collaborative experience of gaming. If I feel like you have a god complex and that you believe you are better than me, I will tell you. I don't give a turd if you are the GM or not. I don't give a turd if you have GMed for 18 years. If you had a god complex, I wouldn't care if you are Dave Anerson, because that crap is wrong and poisonous to our hobby.

So feel free to ignore that you self identify as a garbage, power hungry GM with a god complex. That's your choice. I've made my choice to support the hobby and support the rules I play by, so that I can play with other groups and others can play with mine. I'd take community over being right any day of the week.

C'mon people, return to the Force and geeky things. Respect and tollerance is the base of any discussion. Outside this shield of power called internet all of we can be friends and have awesome evening of cool roleplaying.

I'm pro canon and vegan. I'll not burn anyone who is anti canon or eat animals XDD

Almost anyone of us share a wonderful passion, let it be! We can yell awful things about Force Unleashed or Korrib... sorry, Moraband if you wish XD Not so personal attacks.

PS: JEDI ARE COOL! XD

PS: JEDI ARE COOL! XD

False. Jedi are SO overblown. Everyone should totally get over them.

Hi there! I've been a GM for over 18 years, I've done freelance work for Wizards of the Coast, and I've run games with Dave Arneson (google him) as a player.

You're right, I'm not a game developer for Edge of the Empire, nor am I lawyer (not sure why that matters, but I digress). Yet believe it or not I'm experienced enough to determine what does and does not work at my table. Crazy, huh?

Thanks for the free advice I'll be ignoring, though!

I really don't care who you've GMed for. You are trying to provoke an argument and troll me. I have said what I wanted to say. The god complex does not stand with me at any table I play at. If I play at your table, you will respect me as a part of the collaborative experience of gaming. If I feel like you have a god complex and that you believe you are better than me, I will tell you. I don't give a turd if you are the GM or not. I don't give a turd if you have GMed for 18 years. If you had a god complex, I wouldn't care if you are Dave Anerson, because that crap is wrong and poisonous to our hobby.

So feel free to ignore that you self identify as a garbage, power hungry GM with a god complex. That's your choice. I've made my choice to support the hobby and support the rules I play by, so that I can play with other groups and others can play with mine. I'd take community over being right any day of the week.

Dude... for someone who claims to be all about the experience of collective storytelling with a group you come off as AWFULLY judgemental, condescending, and most especially CLOSED MINDED. I'm no psychologist, but you reeeeeeally seem like you're projecting right now. I don't know if you feel guilty about your own so-called "god complex" or if you put up with some Nazi-like GM in the recent or semi-recent past, but regardless I'll wager you have some form of gaming PTSD or whatever. Fun.

The point is you don't know who you're talking to when you're on a forum like this. Some of the people here very well might be developers of this game and/or others. As a matter of fact, I'd say that's extraordinarily likely. You might think that you're the one doing this hobby favors by being all rules lawyery or whatever, but it turns out that the oldest generation of gamers -- particularly the ones who CREATED the hobby -- vehmenently disagree with you. If the rules in the book aren't fun enough for your table, CHANGE THEM. You bought the book, do what you want with it. And let the players do the same! If a player wants to play a particular race or own a pariticular ship that's not in any of the books, get creative with them and house rule the crap out of it! This is one of the primary advantages of tabletop RPGs and always has been.

The key is to be consistent about it; at my table we maintain a a Facebook group with a "House Rules" document everyone printed out and included with their character notes. You don't have to be quite THAT meticulous about it, but as long as everybody trusts that the GM is trying to create the best possible experience for everyone involved you should be good to go. On the list of people GMs need to entertain, however, ARE RULES LAWYERS!!! They deserve to have fun too, which is why the books should be observed as closely as possible, with new house rules being taken very seriously. FUN TIP: GMs should always include rules lawyers in on house rules discussions. They may not agree with changing things, but oftentimes they'll have some very pragmatic insight to share.

Last but not least, WELCOME TO A TABLETOP RPG FORUM. We discuss house rules and creative things we've come up with here. Isn't that friggin' nuts...? lol

Hi there! I've been a GM for over 18 years, I've done freelance work for Wizards of the Coast, and I've run games with Dave Arneson (google him) as a player.

You're right, I'm not a game developer for Edge of the Empire, nor am I lawyer (not sure why that matters, but I digress). Yet believe it or not I'm experienced enough to determine what does and does not work at my table. Crazy, huh?

Thanks for the free advice I'll be ignoring, though!

I really don't care who you've GMed for. You are trying to provoke an argument and troll me. I have said what I wanted to say. The god complex does not stand with me at any table I play at. If I play at your table, you will respect me as a part of the collaborative experience of gaming. If I feel like you have a god complex and that you believe you are better than me, I will tell you. I don't give a turd if you are the GM or not. I don't give a turd if you have GMed for 18 years. If you had a god complex, I wouldn't care if you are Dave Anerson, because that crap is wrong and poisonous to our hobby.

So feel free to ignore that you self identify as a garbage, power hungry GM with a god complex. That's your choice. I've made my choice to support the hobby and support the rules I play by, so that I can play with other groups and others can play with mine. I'd take community over being right any day of the week.

I'm not sure if you yourself are trolling or not. Nobody is talking about changing the rules just because they can or to mess with their players. What we are talking about is GMs discussing with their players what works best for the group as a whole and then implementing that, something recommended multiple times in the rules themselves. For examples see the CRB pages 288 and 294, "Fun First, Rules Second" and, "Rules Adjudication" respectively.

Almost anyone of us share a wonderful passion, let it be! We can yell awful things about Force Unleashed or Korrib... sorry, Moraband if you wish XD Not so personal attacks.

PS: JEDI ARE COOL! XD

Concerning Force Unleashed: A lot of bad things happened in those stories, not gonna lie. But Starkiller himself is an interesting character, as is Proxy and a few other characters. I'm hoping Rebels does what The Clone Wars did with Asajj Ventress with Starkiller by retelling his story in a better, more believable fashion.

Concerning Korriban/Moraband: This bothered me for all of a hour before I started thinking about historical precidents. I am part Czech myself, but back in the day that country was called Czechslovakia. Some of my family is from Beligum, but centuries ago they would have been living in Germania. Countries change names.

As for why... well, consider this; you're a government/corporate entitity who just laid claim to a slice of space that includes a planet that's been used as a staging ground for Sith invasions time and time again over the centuries. You want to encourage business in this sector, and possibly sell mining rights to someone. Do you A) keep the planet named "Korriban" and mark the Valley of Dark Lords on everybody's map or B) rename the planet and stop talking how about its ancient graveyards are literally saturated with pure evil...?

I'm pro canon and vegan. I'll not burn anyone who is anti canon or eat animals XDD

Never met a herbivore I didn't like. Chomp, chomp.

Am I missing something but doesn't the Strength upgrade say that you can only lift up to the number of upgrades purchased? So that would cap the silhouette at 4 right? In this case is doesn't matter how many pips you spent to try to activate that upgrade, its capped at how many you purchased.

Am I missing something but doesn't the Strength upgrade say that you can only lift up to the number of upgrades purchased? So that would cap the silhouette at 4 right? In this case is doesn't matter how many pips you spent to try to activate that upgrade, its capped at how many you purchased.

The thing is, is that it says the same for the Range and Magnitude upgrades. The question is whether it really can be activated multiple times since Range and Magnitude outright say it, whereas Strength doesn't. This also made a little fuzzier by first post, where Sam Stewart mentioned that all upgrades can be activated multiple times (unless it specifically says you can't, like in AoR's Range upgrade for Enhance) - the Range and Magnitude descriptions are redundant.

Am I missing something but doesn't the Strength upgrade say that you can only lift up to the number of upgrades purchased? So that would cap the silhouette at 4 right? In this case is doesn't matter how many pips you spent to try to activate that upgrade, its capped at how many you purchased.

The thing is, is that it says the same for the Range and Magnitude upgrades. The question is whether it really can be activated multiple times since Range and Magnitude outright say it, whereas Strength doesn't. This also made a little fuzzier by first post, where Sam Stewart mentioned that all upgrades can be activated multiple times (unless it specifically says you can't, like in AoR's Range upgrade for Enhance) - the Range and Magnitude descriptions are redundant.

If that is the case then why would you need to purchase multiple upgrades in the first place? If I can just buy one Strength upgrade then spend 8 pips to activate it multiple times, then why waste the xp? Sounds to me like some errata is in order.

Some clarfication is in order, at least. I think its pretty believable to say that it caps out at Silhouette 4 for right now, though. Anything more than that and we're looking at an "Unleashed" ability of some kind, so to speak. The sort of thing that's possible for certain indvidiuals with certain steps taken in preparation.

System-wide Jedi Battle Meditations, Naga Sadow's causing a binary star system to go dual-supernova, Starkiller's limited manipulation of entire Star Destroyer, and Mother Talzin's ability to cloak herself in an energy field that fires explosive bolts of magic would all be examples of other "Unleashed" kinds of power (some being more common than others).

If that is the case then why would you need to purchase multiple upgrades in the first place? If I can just buy one Strength upgrade then spend 8 pips to activate it multiple times, then why waste the xp? Sounds to me like some errata is in order.

Okay... so your FSE has one rank of the Strength upgrade. He activates the Move power, then the Strength upgrade four times, which upgrades the Silhouette limit of the target his Moving to 4. Cool, he can move the Millennium Falcon with only five white pips!

My FSE, on the other hand, has four ranks of the Strength upgrade. She activates the Move power, then the Strength upgrade once, which upgrades the Silhouette limit of the target she is moving to 4. Even cooler, she can move the Millennium Falcon with only one white pip!

See?

If that is the case then why would you need to purchase multiple upgrades in the first place? If I can just buy one Strength upgrade then spend 8 pips to activate it multiple times, then why waste the xp? Sounds to me like some errata is in order.

Okay... so your FSE has one rank of the Strength upgrade. He activates the Move power, then the Strength upgrade four times, which upgrades the Silhouette limit of the target his Moving to 4. Cool, he can move the Millennium Falcon with only five white pips!

My FSE, on the other hand, has four ranks of the Strength upgrade. She activates the Move power, then the Strength upgrade once, which upgrades the Silhouette limit of the target she is moving to 4. Even cooler, she can move the Millennium Falcon with only one white pip!

See?

Ahhhh... Thanks, got it. Now I see the issue.

Sometimes the RAW is just flat-out bad, vague, or contrary to what you want to do. Or players think up situations like pulling Star Destroyers out of the sky that are feasible by the RAW but that the devs never considered (since they can hardly consider every possible action a player could take) and thus did not balance against. The player loses on nothing if house rules are implemented clearly and non-arbitrarily, and talking like it takes something away from the players is both inane and insulting.

All I'm going to say is that we differ heavily on what we would consider insulting. The god complex that the GM is always right and everyone, even the game's designer, is always wrong, is what I find insulting. A GM who would pull the rug out from under their players out of fear and ignorance is what I would call insulting. The hateful rhetoric of this "Rule Zero" is what I find insulting.

If your group puts up with this, that's fine. It's not my place to judge here. But I do not stand for this kind of ignorance and abuse at my table. I am interested in the collaboration between GM and players in the creation of a story and fun memories, not the abusive and competitive attitudes of a hostile GM who sees themselves as the opposition and deathseeker of their players.

Seems like your definition of "collaboration" is "RAW and players are always right, GM should always bow to them or he's a tyrant." No thanks, not interested. Plenty of systems have vague or outright bad RAW, or the RAW supports actions the devs likely never wanted to support because they're not omniscient. Hell, most systems have at least a couple rules that allow for broken crap for just that reason, that nobody can see all the pieces moving at once. D&D is notorious for this with OP class combos. But because it's in a book sold for-profit, clearly the writers (not always the same between books) see all and know better than some lowly GM who actually has to deal with people at a table rather than the game in the abstract? Heh!

Nice baseless assumptions there. Just cuz I think this system is not designed to replicate TFU shenanigans and shouldn't support that kind of thing on balance means I'm "the opposition and a deathseeker." And if you think your message wasn't super judgmental even with your caveat that you're not trying to judge: f***ing loooooooool

Actually, I wouldn't mind if my players adressed me as "Opposition Lord" or "Death Seeker" at the table. That would be way metal, I'd toss some extra XP for lolz.

For real, though, my players know I'm not out to get them. The rules for this game allow for such an immersive cooperative experience that I truly feel like I'm playing a "sandbox" RPG for the first time in a long time.

Guys. It's a game. Arguing rules is fine. Name calling isn't. I would think common manners dictate that.

Guys. It's a game. Arguing rules is fine. Name calling isn't. I would think common manners dictate that.

Common manners don't seem to be all that common around these boards, particularly where the issue of Jedi comes into play.

Rather than what I'd hoped might be an intelligent discussion about the issue and how it might be addressed in light of F&D, the bulk of the responses have been akin to "quit your whining, the system's fine" before moving onto becoming what amounts a glorified pissing match about whose vision for Force & Destiny is more right than others'.

Tempted to ask the mods to lock this thread before it really does devolve into a flame war and series of personal attacks. Of course, if a moderator sees this post and opts to do that anyway, I won't complain.

Concerning Korriban/Moraband: The bothered me for all of a hour before I started thinking about historical precident. I am part Czech myself, but back in the day that country was called Czechslovakia. Some of my family is from Beligum, but centuries ago they would have been living in Germania. Countries change names.

As for why... well, consider this; you're a government/corporate entitity who just laid claim to a slice of space that includes a planet that's been used as a staging ground for Sith invasions time and time again over the centuries. You want to encourage business in this sector, and possibly sell mining rights to someone. Do you A) keep the planet named "Korriban" and mark the Valley of Dark Lords on everybody's map or B) rename the planet and stop talking how about its ancient graveyards are literally saturated with pure evil...?

This sounds like a good adventure hook for me.

Its sad, in general therms, when people use to attack others just because they have a different opinion. I would not want that anyone close this post, or any other one. Its sad that a group of adults (or almost) fight or discuss without respect or manners just because can't be a bit more comprensive or tolerant. A friend of mine told me that internet its a reflect of society + anonimous add. Not sure, but I want to resist and refuse that idea.

Forums/internet are just awesome! People from the entire world with the same or close hobbies can share their experiences freely and learn a lot of things.

There are a lot of people in this forums with a lot of experience or/and wonderful ideas and points of view. Just focus on that.

If someone trolls, flames, harrasses (so many s? XD) just speak to him/her and show that its hurting other people, or just ignore!

I'm sure that there are more positive things than else

Take care people, and please, before push enter/Post button, re-read your post thinking that behind your computer are people with real, not digital, feelings that you can hurt.

PS: Donovan what program you used to create your PDF of Ways of the Force? Yea a bit off-topic XD

Tempted to ask the mods to lock this thread before it really does devolve into a flame war and series of personal attacks. Of course, if a moderator sees this post and opts to do that anyway, I won't complain.

I'm thinking the opposite approach.

Pin the damned thing and have all the fighting about what may happen confined to the single thread.

Donovan, do you think you could post Sam's response to your original question? His answer is very curious, as it seems to me to contradict several of the rules limiting the abuse of "spamming" force activation. The only reason for their inclusion in the range and duration upgrades is to specifically allow you to do more with your pips, without having waste simply because you rolled too well.

And in any case, i live my gaming life with a simple law, based on Occam's Razor, when it comes to rules questions like this one:

When you are confronted with two interpretations of a vague rule, the least powerful one is the most correct.

It causes the least confusion, and distorts the flow of game play the least. I played 5th edition 40k Tabletop heavily, and i would have flat out murdered 1 of my friends who played as well if we didnt abide by that rule.

(!@#$ing Games Workshop. HIRE SOME DECENT GORRAMNED PLAYTESTERS YOU ARSEHATS.)