I'm pretty much totally on the side of keeping to only what we saw in the films. I'm really hoping that is the power level that FFG will be going for in F&D. I can't wait for that beta, should lead to some great discussions, and hopefully another great game. (I just hope us non-Gen Con attenders can pick up a copy)

Thats kinda my point. What weve seen in the films has already been presented in two books. Does anyone really want to argue that Luke circa RotJ was more powerful than anything you can make in either book currently? Also, as far as new powers goes, what can they add that hasnt already been put in? We see examples of move, influence, foresee, sense, and enhance. Only force power we really see that hasnt been put in is lightning. And as many have stated and the books seem to be following, theyre staying away from EU content, or have so far. So that makes me wonder what they are going to put into Destiny that we havent seen yet?

Good points Bipolar. I'm away form my book (and haven't seen the AoR Force Powers yet.) Does any of the current Force stuff cover seeing the future? Also, we will probably get more uses of Destiny, and rules for falling to the Dark Side, etc.

Personally, I'm hoping this is what comes out of it, not a huge list of new Force powers.

Perhaps a trance power that recovers Strain or boosters a Force user's ability to cope with it - like what Yoda tried to get Luke to do on Degobah, and what Qui-Gon did in TPM when against Maul; a power that simulates more harmful manipulations of the Force, like lightening and the crushing of organs (Force grip); a power that enhances speed, like when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon blitzed out of the way of Droidika fire; or a power that grants you access to lightsaber/Force weapon abilities.

As the other books only have 3 core powers, we'll probably be looking at a similar number.

Don't forget that each book is supposed to be its own game. Will there be repetition? Being that this is a book focused on Force we will, in all likelihood, see the five powers we have already got (Enhance, Forsee, Influence, Move, Sense) plus some new powers. Healing, damage, and possibly a couple more if they seem relevent. The lightsaber skill will be there officially. With more careers will come more opportunity for a higher Force Rating, which will allow for more consistant Force use. More Force specific talents.

What I would not like to see are the many abilities that showed up in d20 like Force Perception or Force Pilot. I like using the Force to enhance abilities but not replace. Jedi in d20 really only needed to focus on one skill, Force-use. So far I've liked the enhancing nature of the Force. I think it is much more representative of what the Force does.

We still haven't seen much in terms of Force Powers involving Lightsaber Combat, for deflecting attacks, nor have we seen anything to detail the ability to send out messages to those you share a strong connection to, resisting the effects of gas, vacuum or exposure, force choke, force lightning, absorbing force or energy attacks, Force Healing powers are debatable because they were a mechanic from the original WEG days and their inclusion in EU canon comics, books and games.

Most of those powers could be covered as Force Talents as a part of a specialization without the need for their own Force Power Tree, The power to Heal/Harm could be simple enough to link to light side/dark side, and while I expect Force Lightning would be included as an option for Dark Side NPCs I doubt it gets its own tree for player use.

Only two I see much call for would be Lightsaber skills and Force Healing with a sprinkling of odd talents otherwise, plus the 5 powers released thus far

Given that Jedi are able to deflect bolts because of their connection to the Force, I can see reasoning behind making a Force power geared toward more efficient Force weapon usage (lightsaber, Jedi/Sith swords, etc.)

Given that Jedi are able to deflect bolts because of their connection to the Force, I can see reasoning behind making a Force power geared toward more efficient Force weapon usage (lightsaber, Jedi/Sith swords, etc.)

Talents would work just as well "Spend X strain, and do Y and you can deflect it back." Plus this would help keep it in a Jedi career/spec. Make it a power and there will be rules lawyers everywhere trying to poke holes in it so their (Insert Force tradition that's not supposed to use lightsabers career here) can have a lightsaber...

Don't draw at least a few lines in the sand you'll eventually end up with some of the sillyness WotC and WEG had with Jedi taking all kinda of crazy powers. Anyone remember "Sever Force?" "Force I can totally walk through walls now" was nice too, if not as horribly abused.

I only suggested that it might be a power because FS talents were described more as passive Force application, whereas actively deflecting bolts and using the Force to enhance your combat prowess seems to be an active effort.

I could be wrong, of course, but we won't know until the beta's release.

I have a newpoint of view about Edge Force users scale of powers (maybe its because I'm a bit sleepy XD)

Edge focus only on Rebelion Era so, the Force and Destiny "proper" actual set would be nice that it be focused on "Rebel Jedi" like Luke instead the Republic full trained Jedis.

Hmm... maybe I have to update my old "full power" Jedi idea and focus on a more "Luke Style" Jedi.

We had an entire campaign of backstabbing once (it was Elric/Stormbringer though) that pretty much killed off anyone's taste for open PvP.

Really? I played in a Saga Edition game where I was running a dark side Jedi (he found a holocron late in life and thought it was from a Jedi, but was wrong on that count; all of his actions were aimed at defeating the man who destroyed his family and home--Vader) alongside a Jedi-paladin who kept getting disquieting glimpses of my true self until eventually I took an overtly hostile action and he confronted me. We debated the merits of our differing philosophies back and forth for over an hour, in character (while I used the Consular talent that allows you to use Diplomacy, or the Saga Edition equivalent, to move someone down the condition track and prevent them from attacking you in order to stave off a confrontation with my true friend), until he said that he could not permit me to continue down my path, and seeing that I would not budge, he would have to defeat me. I said, with much regret, that I was sorry it had to come to this, and used Force Grip to crush him to death. My friend playing the Jedi has maintained that that was his favorite roleplaying experience ever, and transcribed as much as he could recall onto the SWSE boards after the game.

I was sad when that campaign ended, as I was enjoying playing a dark sider in turmoil over having to kill his friend, and doubting whether his chosen path was the correct one, despite his previous conviction to that effect. It was pretty awesome all around.

Yeah, I thought Yoda was honestly worn out by the effort.

He was old and close to the end of his life.

Too bad there aren't age rules in EotE. Nor rules for indicating the strain that using the Force can take upon someone. We see characters in the films (and a lot in the EU) struggle with maintaining Force powers, or with continued usage of the Force, but don't really have a mechanic in EotE to reflect this. Sure, it could be described as an explanation for a failed Force power roll, but I think that falls a little short.

Again, I think this is an indication that separating Force use from the skill system was maybe not a very good idea, because it also separates Force use from the Strain mechanic, which is a core piece of the EotE game, and something interesting to play with. If I were trying to marry all of these systems, I'd probably design Use the Force as a skill, and power usage (or certain power usage) would cause Strain, or require strain to activate. Or it could be a usage for Threat on a Force skill roll, maybe Despair totally wearing you out and leaving you unable to manipulate the Force for a short time. I dunno.

That said even without that mechanic, Yoda lifting the X-wing could have just rolled a lot of Threat with his Discipline check to lift the vehicle, taking some strain...except that you don't need to make a Discipline check to use Move unless you're using the object as a weapon...

Thats kinda my point. What weve seen in the films has already been presented in two books. Does anyone really want to argue that Luke circa RotJ was more powerful than anything you can make in either book currently? Also, as far as new powers goes, what can they add that hasnt already been put in? We see examples of move, influence, foresee, sense, and enhance. Only force power we really see that hasnt been put in is lightning. And as many have stated and the books seem to be following, theyre staying away from EU content, or have so far. So that makes me wonder what they are going to put into Destiny that we havent seen yet?

I think Luke was definitely higher than FR 3 in RotJ...I'd probably say that, during the scene at Jabba's barge, he's probably committing 2 or 3 dice to some combination of Brawn, Agility, Sense (defense), and Sense (offense), while still appearing to be rolling some Force dice with his Athletics and Coordination checks. It's possible he's switching stuff on and off, but he isn't taking Action-long pauses in there to do so, really.

And as far as powers yet to be printed, we have Force Lightning, Choke, telepathy, healing trance (sort of in the films, and fairly standard fair across the EU), and maybe healing (could be lumped with trance--trance on one side, healing others on the other), and Vader's blocking Han's shots with his hands, unless you want to explain that as him simply taking the blasts on his mechanical limbs..without any damage being apparent.

a power that enhances speed, like when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon blitzed out of the way of Droidika fire;

I think that's covered by Enhance: remember: Athletics represents how fast you're running basically, so adding the Force to it nets a higher result, and you get to run a given distance in less time. The only issue I see is that there isn't really a cap to what someone could do normally with Athletics that the Force is surpassing, while the characters in the film are clearly doing something beyond what is achievable by the normal person.

Then, Enhance's jump portion does this as well: not only can you jump to some incredible distances, but you also get to do so as a Maneuver, which again translates into some super fast speed.

Given that Jedi are able to deflect bolts because of their connection to the Force, I can see reasoning behind making a Force power geared toward more efficient Force weapon usage (lightsaber, Jedi/Sith swords, etc.)

Talents would work just as well "Spend X strain, and do Y and you can deflect it back." Plus this would help keep it in a Jedi career/spec. Make it a power and there will be rules lawyers everywhere trying to poke holes in it so their (Insert Force tradition that's not supposed to use lightsabers career here) can have a lightsaber...

We don't really see it in the films, but in the EU we definitely see Jedi (Luke) getting worn out deflecting blaster bolts from multiple targets for an extended period of time. Simulating that would be worthwhile, I think, and would cut down a little on the impenetrable Jedi defense schtick--Jedi can defend themselves against vast numbers of armed foes, but Jedi can be worn down.

In hindsight, my 40k RPG comparison seems off base. What i should have asked instead was what exactly should Force and Destiny offer that hasnt already been presented, except to make Force users more powerful? They have already presented a full base of abilities that we are familiar with from the movies, light side at least. I don think a book that puts in some lightsaber variants and styles and a cpl dark side powers will be very well received. They are going to put in another 5 careers with 3 specs each, plus plans for 5 more career books if this pattern with the others stays true to form. Thats a lot of jedi/sith paths to take. But for all the CRBs to stay on the same power level youre going to be looking at a lot of overlap. Of course i could be wrong, but im really not seeing alternatives.

Furthermore i am vehemently opposed to star destroyer move shenanigans. The only time that occured outside of unleashed IIRC was when Daala attacked Yavin 4, and i think the guy who chunked the star destroyers immediately died from the strain. (Borsk 81 or something?) What i mean by more powerful is greater reliability in getting off powers. Being able to lift a frieghter is well within the scale the movies showed us. High end of the scale? Sure. But within the realm of possibility.

What many people dont seem to see is that the Force Users are strong, and with lots of xp invested will be doing lots of damage and succeding on many checks. The caveat is that they wont be triumphing nearly as much as other characters.

Look at all the powers that let you spend pips to gain success or advantage. Also means red dice are much scarier for a jedi since they wont be rolling as many yellows to help balance out the effects of despair. All this means that the base careers are just as good as Jedi, and can actually do far better in their chosen fields.

I think Jeeedai talent trees are a given. They'll get something to represent lightsaber combat styles. Something to represent their traditional roles as mediators. Possibly their self-imposed responsibilities for investigation, too. I don't know if this will follow the Guardian/Consular/Sentinel division of the d20 games - they may no longer be canon, for one; Luke may be unaware of them when he rebuilds the Jedi, for another.

I agree the Force Powers are fine as they are. I don't need to see crazy stuff - Force Sensitives are special enough as it is.

As for making trained Force users able to use powers more reliably, you could do it by inventing a talent that lets a Force Sensitive re-roll individual dice (rather than the pool). They'd have a greater chance of success, but the maximum number of Force Points that person could generate would remain the same.

I think characters like Anakin/Vader and Luke are exceptions, not the rule. Both had an aptitude for the Force beyond others. In game terms I would say they started with a Force Rating before taking any "specs". And at the end of it all they are considered the peak. The new character in Rebels, the young thief, can be an example of an Exile type. Having some ability, but shrugging it off as "luck".

There was a whole 'nother thread that was "Wish List for Force & Destiny."

I figure at the very least we'll see the now-ingrained Consular/Sentinel/Guardian split if there's just a single Jedi career, and the FFG design team wants to make this book about more than just the Force-using crowd. Then again, it could be that the F&D intent is to be almost exclusively Force-users, and that Consular, Sentinel, and Guardian would each be their own careers (something I think mouthymerc initially suggested) with attendant specializations, thus leaving the other three careers to be split amongst offensive/combat and defensive/meditative types of Force-users, with the sixth being up in the air (if there even is a sixth career; for all we know, there may not be).

Mouthymerc's also right in that with each core rulebook being a stand-alone product, we're going to see a repeat of Force powers, and probably not a lot of brand new ones. I've some ideas of my own that I've been fleshing out for my Ways of the Force, but time will tell if FFG managed to remotely pick my brain like they did for Enhance and Foresee (fun trivia tidbit: I'd been working on building Force power trees based on my Enhanced Ability talent and Farseeing minor power, and while never finished due to AoR covering those, what I'd come up with had some striking similarities to FFG's version).

Personally I'm really hoping they don't do Padawan, Knight, and Master specs. A Padawan is pretty adequately covered by Exile/Emergent, IMO.

And lolno, F&D should NOT be Deathwatch to Edge/AoR's DH. That would be completely awful.

Well... Age of Rebellion and Edge of the Empire are seamlessly compatible as the designers promised. They have made the same promise for Force and Destiny. I suspect that even with a book replete with force-sensitive careers, you're not going to have overpowered low-xp characters. Keep in mind, high XP Hired Guns get access to Signature abilities that include eliminating all minions from an encounter. It's reasonable for a high-xp Force sensitive to be able to do something similar, but at lower points I think we'll see an even power level.

I generally agree with your post, mainly because Force use is a separate thing to your baseline main shtick of Smuggler, Doctor, etc, and is a corollary investment that lacks some of the same payoff (broader Talents, more trees with access to Dedication). Like, OK, you have the whole Sense tree. You can do some cool stuff with it. But there's a LOT of stuff you won't be better at than if you had proceeded with Smuggler. Trade-offs.

On the other hand, even a "low XP" Force user who buys Sense is in a fast track to spend 50 XP and upgrade 2 attacks per turn or upgrade the difficultly of 2 incoming attacks per turn. Granted, this is if you pour your first 70 XP into unlocking FSEx, then buying Sense and its Commitment/Control/Strength upgrades down the left side, and Sense is really maximized when you have FR 2 (with this method, you'd have FR 1 and be a long way from 2 at any rate). But I have not seen much that compares to this 70 XP expense in terms of combat capability in any other tree.

I think the other thing to remember in this piece is that XP spent on force powers or upping a force tree is XP not spent on skills or additional specializations. As such, while a force user will get access to all kinds of new force powers, generally the XP cost for these powers so far scale with similar talents, or the equivalent XP to soup up one's own skills.

They key thing is to look at how a given force power scales to a similarly costed talent, and this will give us an idea as to the anticipated balance when Force and Destiny does come out.

Seeing how the core rulebooks for eote and AOR (beta) are primarily focusing on the original trilogy, i dont see Force and Destiny being any different. It will be in the supplements where you will be able to explore EU, and video game powers, im guessing.

Personally i think the EU and video games have diluted what amazing feets were performed in the original trilogy. So for that reason I dont want to explore much more beyond the OT in in my campaign.

I disagree with the idea that Edge of the Empire Core Rulebook primarily focuses on the OT (I have not read the beta of AoR). The games are, of course, set in the Rebellion Era, and so the most pertinent information to playing these games comes from the movies. But the book in no way limited itself to what was shown on the screen. There are zero mentions of the Corporate Sector (as far as I know) in the movies, but there are a good number of pages outlining it. The book describes the history of the Clone Wars and Emperor Palpatine's rise to power. Those weren't in the OT. They retell the story of how the Rebellion came into the possession of the X-Wing fighters. They have a blurb on the Zahn Consortium: a reference to a game I don't think the majority has played. They don't reference the great power of the Jedi Generals in the Clone Wars, not because that stuff is off-limits, but because it's irrelevant.

People seem to talk as if, according to FFG, nothing but the OT ever happened. But this ignores the so many references the game makes to events of the past and how they should inform the way things are now (most references to battles in the Clone Wars in the CRB do so with an eye to how the Empire treats them because of it, for example).

Disclaimer: I am not specifically responding to anyone. I've just heard these things a lot both about this RPG and about the LCG and felt like saying something this time.

Kager - That's pretty much how I feel too. I'm hoping that F&D can bring back the wonder and nostalgia of the original trilogy's vision of Jedi and the Force. That's much more interesting to me than unstoppable superheroes.

Ffg seems to be borrowing heavily thematic wise from a lot of EU content but keeping the mechanics true to what weve seen in the movies. And honestly, you dont see much force power use in the OT. Go sit down and watch it. Count how many times someone uses the force in each movie. Its not alot. Especially compared to how often the average PC will be using them, even accounting for "keeping it honest" with roleplaying.

And as a follow through to anyone who actually counts the force usage, exclude luke and vader's fights and tell me how many uses you count for the OT

How do you come to "true to the movies mechanically" though. I'm not even sure what that means. I don't disagree that there's not a lot of force use in the OT. But I don't see a sufficient case being made for why that matters.

What mechanics that would be appropriate to Edge of the Empire or Age of Rebellion do you think have been excluded because they aren't depicted in the OT?

Look at the powers, the gear, and the technology. You see plenty of stuff not in the movies, (the whole corellian book) but they work within what we see in the movies. Read some EU books and start seeing wonky tech and force powers creep in. Thats what i meant by thematic, and not mechanic. I really like how theyve done that. Im not arguing that they need to put stuff in or change other things (other than shields grumble grumble).

Donovan asked originally if force users were op. Currently i think the consensus is with some GM awareness the force powers arent that overwhelming. The problem i have lies is whats coming up in FoD. Several have suggested that force users will get the ability to reroll force pips to better the chances of getting a lightside pip. That limitation is currently one of the big safe guards on jedi power levels compared to the other careers. I guess i havent gotten my point across very well but im not advocating for force users to be uber powerful. Im just wondering where theyre going to go from here. There is already a full suite of powers, so not a lot of room for growth there.

It was suggested that there might be a talent that lets you reroll force die to increase the chances of getting a lightside pip. Seems reasonable. But dont forget youll defenitely see an increase to force rating 3, maybe even 4. I doubt itll go much higher. Now you have a user who can use his powers much more often, with greater strength and reliability. Then you can start havin nightmares about a player who uses Move to pick up half the ships in a space port and throw them at a group of shmucks hundreds of feet away. Takes 4 pips. Highly unlikely now, but doable much more frequently with a rating increase and rerolls. Now do you want that guy running amok in you AoR game? Heck no. He could rip a 1/3 of a squadron of fighters out of the sky a round. So much for that epic space battle when hes smashing the opposition into each other. Also take note of the ability to trigger autofire when using muliple objects on muliple targets. Lol.

I also just noticed you could kill 10 stormtroopers out of the book with a single activation, and thats not even factoring the autofire.

Thats what i meant by my Deathwatch comparison. Can they play with the other games? Sure. But i have a very strong feeling that any FoD characters would start to distort an Edge or Age campaign if they were present for any length of time. Maybe fun for a session or two. But watching this guy smoke every encounter with his force powers would get old really fast.

How do you come to "true to the movies mechanically" though. I'm not even sure what that means. I don't disagree that there's not a lot of force use in the OT. But I don't see a sufficient case being made for why that matters.

What mechanics that would be appropriate to Edge of the Empire or Age of Rebellion do you think have been excluded because they aren't depicted in the OT?

"True to the movies mechanically" is sort of an exercise in fanwank simply because it's trying to cram the square peg of cinematic moments into the round hole of game mechanics: the latter simply never influenced the former; the movie scenes were written and acted in ways that were necessary to plot, not to prove examples for a mechanical system.

Force users aren't currently overwhelming, as I've said, mainly because FFG avoided the Saga method of "Force user is a base class." There was no mechanical cost to being a Force user and nothing really preventing dips to other classes (cough, Scout) for a couple cool abilities and continuing on in a Force class and prestige class. But in Edge you do face drawbacks: delving deep into Force Power trees is expensive and doesn't get you to either Dedication or +Force Rating, which are sort of the easiest benchmarks of character advancement (and not necessarily great benchmarks, since +1 green die can cost anywhere from 75-150 XP to get to it, and that has definite diminishing returns compared to stacking ranked Talents that grant more Boosts).

On the other hand, it takes minimum 170 XP to buy in to FSEx (assuming 2nd spec), get to FR 2, buy into Sense, and get all the left-hand upgrades (commit 2 Force dice to upgrade 2 outgoing and 2 incoming attacks per turn). But of course, 170 XP is not chump change and you've just hyper focused, gaining zero versatility anywhere else (compared to going through your Talent tree or branching out into the very good stuff scattered about the FSEx spec).

At higher levels of power, add FSEm to get FR 3 and committing to Enhance to improve Brawn or Agi. We're talking a lot more XP now, at LEAST another 170, possibly more, to be a hardcore Force combat monster who is not reliant on pips, but can't really do much of anything else compared to the rest of the party, throwing chargen-level dice pools for noncombat actions. Again, assuming all purchases were to buy into Force specs, buy the straight shot route to +FR, and buy the most combat-relevant Force power trees.

The clear answer there would be to challenge the character out of combat. Sure you upgrade a couple incoming attacks twice, upgrade all outgoing attacks twice, and have another die to a combat pool, but you're not going to talk any better. Then again, maybe you don't need to, since you're not a character in a vacuum but you likely have a party designed to work well together and cover multiple bases. At that point the only "credible threat" is Imperial assets but imo that would get stale quickly if it's all just head-to-head matches.

By contrast, depictions that I would like to see include making your Force presence very small to avoid detection by other Forceful (and, with it, a mechanic for Forceful to sense each other in the way Vader sensed Luke). I would like to see Vader's blaster negation. I would like to see Force Lightning. But I'd also like to see a degree of harder rules on Dark Side usage, versus the current nebulous "narrative/GM call" stuff.

I dunno, I think the one thing I don't want to see is the wire-fu antics of the Prequels, or worse, the Clone Wars show (which I happen to love, but the power level of Jedi was grossly distorted from virtually everything that came before, books AND movies, with that show). I prefer the interpretation of lightsaber combat being more samurai-inspired, rather than wuxia/parkour. Just like I prefer major Force acts like throwing starships to be rare to impossible and only at a great cost - compare Dorsk-81's sacrifice to Starkiller's mostly effortless Star Destroyer combat. A matter of taste.

Well I started a thread to guess what classes were going to be in F&D if you guys want to continue that discussion.

As far as the OT you have to remember they were limited in what they could do in it because of limits in technology. I mean the original New Hope lightsaber duel they were so worried about breaking the things it looks like they are just swatting at each other. Also the fact that the actor in the Vader suit couldn't lift his arms over his head because of the shoulder guards on the suit his range was limited.

A few powers that haven't been addressed from OT:

Force Grip, Force Lightning, and Absorb Energy.

There is argument that Vader did not absorb the energy from Han's blaster in Empire and there are arguments he did. I am actually in the latter court as at that point and time in OT we thought that Vader was more flesh and blood than they established with Episode III. In fact that is where there is a contradiction in the EU that the Emperor took Vader's other hand for letting Luke get away at the end of Empire. Anyway since the act could be classified as neutral as far as light or dark I am just saying it isn't addressed.

Firstly, I just realized my triple negative. Wow, that thing's a beauty.

Anyway, true to the movies is all well and good, but I don't see any opportunities to include prequel or Clone Wars material that were avoided (beyond the choice of setting in the first place) , so this idea that FFGs system is primarily OT seems purely unfounded.

As far as Force User power levels, I tend to agree. I've not had any in my game, but it seems like a waste to tool a character up to be Force only in this game.

And then as far as what power level the Jedi should have, I think the prequels and Clone Wars should be considered when deciding what should be possible. The Force Unleashed should be completely ignored until we all forget it exists, but I don't see Clone Wars as that egregious (the other Clone Wars show was pretty **** bad for that though). As you said, different tastes.