Not necesarelly. For example, I don't like so much Force Unleashed (not enough canonical for me) but in the case thath someone can throw a ISSD, my players and myself let it to a "cinematic thing".

Like in Saga, even if Vader can Force Grip/Crush you and disable from combat because the power was OP, I only used Grip as a scene introduction and after that Vader draw his lightsaber and begin the fight.

In Edge, even if you can disarm Vader with no resistance check, my players just don't do it. They use that powers on minor rivals or minions. We play a cinematic style.

In Clone Wars Palpatine could (or seem to) crush Maul and Savage with the Force with not so much problems, but everyone wanted there a lightsaber duel. The fact that you have a knife doesn't mean that you have to use it. Roleplaying its cinematic thing, not just only an arcade or videogame. Its like a home theater with a non defined script. The main goal is (at least for me) roleplay and create an awesome story, not just roll dices and be de cooler one.

My OP player still have a lot of dramatic and dangerous conflicts. Its a super pilot 5 Y and tons of talents and his ship stills get damaged by asteroids and TIE fighters. He fights with Rebels with 4 Dodges, Defense 2 and 5 Y Lightsaber and he stills get hurt by AT-ST and inquisitor lightsabers.

Just some imagination and also the fact that Edge stills so mortal XD Maybe you can crush a car to 5 stormtroopers, but the sixth will aim to you, roll a lucky shot and cause about 5 Wounds.

Show must go on!

One thing that strikes me about this issue which is why for goodness sake would anyone want to play a character that could toss Star Destroyers around? It's so absurdly powerful it would be pointless to roleplay any challenge. Anyone of that level of power and there would be no way to incorporate that into any kind of game. There is no challenge, no tension, no doubt over outcomes, it would just be silly.

Why do some D&D players enjoy playing Epic-tier characters, particularly wizards and clerics (especially in editions prior to 4th)?

For some, it's just the rush of power and the ability to be such a total badass that nothing can stand before them... much like the heroes that we saw in the 80's and 90's summer action blockbusters.

Campaign that I'm in that just started as a player who very much fits that mold. He's opted for a Wookiee Soldier/Commando as his character, which has proven to be quite brutal once he gets into melee and starts swinging that vibro-ax... and that was before he'd even purchased any talents (dumped his XP into Characteristics and stacked two ranks of Melee). Now that he's got some XP to spend, he's probably going to just get nastier. And he's exactly the sort of player that would revel in things like Last One Standing just for the sheer badassery factor of taking down every single goon in the room in an blood-drenched orgy of violence. And he'd still go hunting for even more ways to make his character an utter badass even after racking up thousands of XP.

Hi, guys. Thanks for starting this topic. This same thing has been buggin' the bajeezus out of me.

Firstly, I am running an EotE game. So Force 2, max. I have a character that likes throwing the group's freighter around with the Force. He is the party's mechanic, with no combat skills. His actions in battle are always force-related, so I just throw a couple extra goons in every fight to keep him busy smashing them together while the other players shoot, stab, and otherwise dispatch their opponents (often in crafty ways, thankfully).

So, to recap what I've read here (& I've also got my book out.) :

1.) Force Move in EotE is more like Force "Push", right? From short range up to the PC's maximum range, on a personal range scale. Ergo, no pushing ships away in space or pulling guns out of peoples' hands, right?

2.) In the book regarding strength (pg. 284): It does not say the user may activate multiple times. I cannot find where the book says "unless otherwise stated… may activate multiple times" or whatever was said earlier in the thread.

So, as an example, that means purchasing maximum Force Move strength (4), maximum range (3), the first control upgrade to do damage, and rolling four (4) force points on two dice (maximum), the character must spend:

The first point on activation,
a second point to upgrade the strength to 4 = Silhouette 4,
a third point to upgrade the range = extreme [personal] range
(and have a point left over?),
and make a discipline check (difficulty four purple),
to push a YT-1300 Freighter from short range into an enemy down the street and deal 40 damage minus soak….?

Apologies if this is remedial, but that's my interpretation.

And the fine manipulation upgrade… Is that just to push switches and only push things in delicately, like pushing keys into locks or toys into a toybox? No pulling, lifting, or pushing down? (I would probably fudge this if it made the story good.)

Thoughts? Anyone break either of the other two Force Powers?

- James

As several prior posts note, some folks are simply content to say "not an issue now, so I ain't gonna worry about it." For them, that's fine.

Me? I'm taking a longer view on the issue, particularly as I've seen enough game systems collapse under the stress imparted by utterly-broken-yet-perfectly-rules-legal characters.

Much as I loved playing WEG Star Wars back in the day, that system was not made for campaigns that ran for multiple years; I believe it was Bill Slavicsek (i.e. one of the primary authors) that even said the game was meant for folks to play a character for at most a dozen sessions, and once the current campaign arc was done, to retire those characters and make brand-new ones. To put in terms of this system, it'd be akin to playing until you'd racked up about 250 XP and then retiring the character. Obviously EotE/AoR were designed to account for such extended lifespans.

There's also the horror stories of high level spell-casters in D&D, with the GM having to plan their encounters in such a way that if they want it to be any sort of challenge, then they need to find ways to specifically counter the party's wizard or keep the party cleric from entering full CoDzilla mode.

Right now, EotE is less than a year old (or less than two years if you count the Beta), with AoR in it's relative infancy. This system hasn't been around all that long, so it is quite possible that things that aren't an issue now could be bigger issues once the PCs have racked up several hundred or even several thousand XP.

Back during the EotE Beta, I ran a bunch of 'stress tests' using characters with some vastly bloated traits, such as Force Rating 4 (something impossible to obtain as FR 2 was the legal max due to only one Force-Sensitive spec being available). If I'd been running those tests under the notion that the basic powers and upgrades could be activated multiple times, I'd have passed along to FFG that while the Week 2 Updates did a lot to reign in the power of Force-users, there was still some work that needed to be done to make sure that when Jedi did become playable characters they didn't have as high a risk of dominating the game as they did in prior Star Wars RPGs.

James,

Read my first post. I cite specifically where the "can be activated multiple times" is listed in the core rulebook, including the page, column, and paragrah.

And Donovan, I see your responses to my much older post. Thank you! For some reason I couldn't dig them out earlier.

I figured I'd just stick it in this thread to clarify. You're right: pg. 278 says each ability may be activated multiple times, but the book also says "unless stated otherwise in the power's description, activating a force power is an action." Then it goes on to say you attempt to activate a power and then form a dice pool. Confusing.

So I guess the attempt isn't the action, nor is forming the dice pool, but actually activating the power…?

You've hit on something I meant to mention and found confusing also. P. 278 also says "unless stated otherwise in the power's description, activating a Force power is an action." So if we can only do one action per turn, and activating a power is an action, how do you activate a power multiple times? It's very contradictory.

You've hit on something I meant to mention and found confusing also. P. 278 also says "unless stated otherwise in the power's description, activating a Force power is an action." So if we can only do one action per turn, and activating a power is an action, how do you activate a power multiple times? It's very contradictory.

Well, if one were to be as cynical as HappyDaze has been in the past about some of Sam's answers on rules questions, one could say that all Sam's really done is just give a haphazard answer.

However, I'm not a cynic, and I honestly think that Sam was trying to clear things up to the best of his ability and understanding. I don't know if he was the person who wrote the section on Force powers, so he might just be trying to provide the best interpretation of the rules based on his own understanding of them.

As for activating a power multiple times, I think Sam's answer was based upon the idea that you're only activating the entire power a single time, but the Force Points generated are used to trigger the various effects and upgrades of that power multiple times. So in the case of Influence, if your Force Exile opts to stress a target's mind and had two Force Points to use, they'd still only be activating the Influence power once, but would be triggering the basic effect of that power twice to deal two points of Strain damage.

But your post does show that one of my larger concerns, that things aren't worded as well as they could be, particularly as this game has several instances where exact wording matters. A classic example: uncancelled successes add to damage; a whole lot of folks, myself and GM Chris included, had thought that meant each success after the initial success to hit the target was added to damage; so getting a single success while using a blaster pistol would only deal 6 damage to the target). It was Jay Little that clarified that it every success gets added, so that you're never dealing a weapon's base damage when you successfully hit the target. There was also the issue with the ranged defense bonus provided by cover and whether it did or didn't stack with the defense bonus provided by armor, or the Hanger Bay attachment and how much additional space for ships was added per modification.

No matter what the final resolution/verdict of how the Force rules work in this system, they really do need to be reviewed and clarified for Force & Destiny, since Force-users will finally be stepping fully into the spotlight. Fortunately, the fact that there's a Force & Destiny Beta (or at least it was planned as of GenCon 2013, as I overheard several FFG folks mention a F&D Beta in the demo area) means that these sorts of things can be addressed and the rules on Force powers made as clear as possible.

Actually I don't see it stated where there is a limit on Silhouette at all unless it states that you can't buy an upgrade power over and over to infinity if you want. Just an observation on that point.

However, I think another factor needs to be added in that isn't. And that is the fact that I have seen no such thing as a clean success in dice rolling. For example the picking up of a silhouette 4 object and hurling it at someone, you need to succeed on a difficulty 4 discipline test to pull that off. So lets say I do that and my discipline at this point and time isn't that great and when I built this character I didn't min-max him to give him the most awesome stats for hurling large objects at people cause I actually wanted to survive a combat or two to get this awesome power so the characteristic is 3 and the skill is 3 so that gives me a grand total of three upgraded dice and 4 difficulty dice and simply a Force Rating 2 individual at this time. So on a roll on the dice roller app I got 1 light side, 2 dark side, 3 successes 3 failures 2 advantages and 1 disadvantage. Now I spend the light one to activate the power and flip a destiny to dark to use the two dark side points to activate the Control Upgrade and the Strength Upgrade. So basically nothing in way of success since the two cancelled I got 2 advantages well as a GM I would say that the player picked up the ship moved it over his compatriots heads without hitting them and then that he dropped it right in the line of fire of the fight providing cover for both sides (the other advantage and disadvantage).And since it states in the Control upgrade enough force points to move the object and the skill check I would rule that I could of used a destiny point to help with the skill or to help with the force points in case I didn't have enough force points to pull it off. So overall it was a wash on this dice roll. And based on the stats previously stated in regards to force dice I think that this will occur more often than not. I can activate and try it again if I really want to cause as stated a ability can be activated multiple times. However, I believe that this would be classified as an attack action and you are only ever allowed one of those.

Lets look at say 5 rolls like this

2 light side, 2 dark side, 2 successes, 5 failures, 2 triumphs, 2 disadvantages = Even with 2 triumphs not enough successes

3 light side, 1 dark side, 1 success, 1 failure, 3 advantages, 5 disadvantages = No successes

0 light side, 3 dark side, 1 success, 2 failures, 3 advantages, 2 disadvantages = No successes

2 light side, 2 dark side, 4 success, 2 failures, 1 advantage, 2 disadvantages = Enough to hit your target at any range if you have spent enough on the Range upgrade to activate it.

2 light side, 2 dark side, 1 success, 2 failures, 5 advantages, 3 disadvantages = No successes

So in my opinion based on these results that even with a ton spent on force powers and upgrades you still not very likely to lay the smack down with the YT-1300 or AT-AT anytime soon.

Also while overkill is underrated (as per Liam Neeson aka Hannibal Smith in A-Team) I think it would of been simpler to hit said target with say a cargo container with a Silhouette of 2 which is still 20 points of damage minus soak which honestly just going to ruin someone's day more than likely if not make them run for it after extracting themselves (if they can).

My worry is that the Force and Destiny is really going to make those Force powers that you seemed to be worried about now those over powered monstrosities you think they already are.

.

Of course the simple solution to this (though it would really be one hell of a nerf in my opinion) is to simply state that a person can not spend more force points than their Force Rating. So even right now with a character with a Force Rating of 3 could only spend 3 force points any turn to activate a power. If you think about this as far as canon is concerned it would make sense as Anakin as a boy was not trying to drop Dooku's star ship on him in Episode 2 or launching stair cases at him in Episode 3. In fact if you notice that depending on the action of the opponent is usually an equal but opposite reaction from a Jedi in Episode 1 through 3. Examples battle droid tries to shoot them they force push them down or deflect the bolts back at them or close to strike them. A person attempts to strike them down with a lightsaber they deflect with a lightsaber, a person tries to hit them with a heavy object if the force user is Yoda he catches said object and hurls it away or back at the attacker.

Even a force user not trained by sith or jedi at all would know their limits and not try to exceed them unless they had no other choice or in such a dire circumstance they would even try. This is why the book encourages you to communicate with the players before you even start a game. If you get a bunch of players who want that over the top Force Unleashed min max fest then fine run that game. I have found that more players than not want a balanced game where no one character is going to outshine everyone else. The new Dangerous Covenant book introduced even more weapons and some of these provide a bigger boom than anything previously. So, yes while it is conceivable that a force user could drop a YT-1300 on someone it more than likely that bounty hunter or Hired Gun with the Flechette Launcher that going to bring a bit of unbalance to the game before a force user might, again in my opinion.

means that these sorts of things can be addressed and the rules on Force powers made as clear as possible.

We can hope so anyway. While I'm enjoying the game, "clarity" is not a word I'd use to describe it.

Not necesarelly. For example, I don't like so much Force Unleashed (not enough canonical for me) but in the case thath someone can throw a ISSD, my players and myself let it to a "cinematic thing".

Like in Saga, even if Vader can Force Grip/Crush you and disable from combat because the power was OP, I only used Grip as a scene introduction and after that Vader draw his lightsaber and begin the fight.

In Edge, even if you can disarm Vader with no resistance check, my players just don't do it. They use that powers on minor rivals or minions. We play a cinematic style.

I (and some other people) don't really like this method for resolving issues with the game, as it doesn't really make sense. Sure, you're emulating the cinematic way that things play out on film, but most of the time the way characters act in films is ludicrously stupid. Sure, it makes for a better movie if James Bond's current nemesis straps him to a table with a laser slowly inching toward him, then leaves the room with just one easily persuaded guard to watch over him than if the villain were to just shoot Bond in the head and have done with it, but that's not something I want in a game--a feeling that I should not utilize my full potential (or that the villain won't utilize theirs) simply to keep things rolling and entertaining.

That's kind of the problem with being able to throw around ISDs: if you can do that, why aren't you using similar amounts of power to solver other problems? Now, there are some reasons to restrain yourself from doing so, but the list of possibilities gets pretty short when many of those reasons could probably be solved by using the same power.

means that these sorts of things can be addressed and the rules on Force powers made as clear as possible.

We can hope so anyway. While I'm enjoying the game, "clarity" is not a word I'd use to describe it.

I have faith. Not that I feel they glossed over the Force in the first 2 CRBs but it seems pretty likely with the Force as a central tenant of the last one there will be more clarity.

means that these sorts of things can be addressed and the rules on Force powers made as clear as possible.

We can hope so anyway. While I'm enjoying the game, "clarity" is not a word I'd use to describe it.

I have faith. Not that I feel they glossed over the Force in the first 2 CRBs but it seems pretty likely with the Force as a central tenant of the last one there will be more clarity.

Well, we can only hope so. OK, hope and test the crap out of the Beta!

I liked the James Bond and the laser sample XD

Yep, I understand your point of view. But in that case, for people that are looking to emulate "weird" (and cool) movie scenes, Edge will be enough. Movies scenes are sometimes (in almost all cases) irrational and cinematic, so, this is a called "the GM did it". Seems that you prefer to play some kind of "combat/real life simulator" instead a "rule of cool/cinematic game". The idea of "exchange Advantages and Triumphs for cool cinematic things" doesn't fit in a few of my players too.

People uses to want entire control of its games and chars. They uses to think that if I played above 5 hours, my strategy and interpretation was good and I earned the fair XP, why I cannot spend them and USE the talents I got to use as I deserve(wish).

Edge itself opens the way to cinematic interpretations, not for a real game simulator. This is one of its weakness and strenghts too. Never will (or probably) will have a realistic game with Edge, because it "movie/cinematic" focused.

I have those two types of players. I played the two styles, and as I use to say, I don't like the idea that a players is killed by an over or too abstract rule or by a simple or erratic mechanic. I prefer to protect the story (and the players) so, I don't have any problem with the "don't disarm Vader" thing. Can be unfair to some people, I know, but is a style.

When I was a child in my first sessions my master used a "mind trick" on my char because I wasn't following the adventure. At that moment I disliked it a lot, I was focused on just kill some orcs, but now I understand that the main focus of the game in create and awesome story instead of arrive at level 10 or kill a lot of things just because "I can" or the rules let me.

Two different styles, but in my opinion (not an Edge expert yet) this game seems that is more oriented to cinematic than simulator.

Take care!

PS: Sorry for long posts XD

Like in Saga, even if Vader can Force Grip/Crush you and disable from combat because the power was OP, I only used Grip as a scene introduction and after that Vader draw his lightsaber and begin the fight.

In Edge, even if you can disarm Vader with no resistance check, my players just don't do it. They use that powers on minor rivals or minions. We play a cinematic style.

Your group is cool. I'd like to say my group plays the same way but - while we respect the setting and tropes - were Vader trying to kill us I know we'd be doing everything to stay alive. Grenades, flame, spray paint across the visor, Skuldugg more grenades on his person, groin shots, dirty tricks, possibly betrayal (I suspect at least one of us would try to flee amid chaos).

As players we'd know we couldn't win (we've seen the films, after all). As characters we'd have no choice.

Blood, spit, tears - it will not be pretty or clean when we die.

Im a little unsure why the OP is worried that Jedi are going to be overpowered, at least compared to EotE and AoR characters. They will be. Hopefully it wont be as bad as in previous games, but the Jedi wouldn't stand out much if they were on the same power level as regular soldiers and ne'er-do-wells.

Well, obviously Force Users should not be on par with regular soldiers. And neither should the other PC careers. We've had this conversation, a lot, and I still strongly disagree with the notion that force users should, by design, be stronger than all other PC options. The PCs are exceptional individuals, force users or otherwise.

XDDD I wasn't so lucky always Col. Orange. In my first games players used to do that awful things to sirvive, even between them. We call that the "Dungeon' Spirit".

In actual times, if a player do cinematic things to create a good scene I help him/her. For example: my player has encountered with Darth Vader, and instead killing him (try) or do nasty tricks he just tries to stop him allowing rebels to scape and my way to thank him that its that in that moment a Y-Wing pilot yells "duck" while shoots at Vader and my char Force Jumps to the Y-Wing escaping leaving Vader undamaged and with his lightsaber and letting rebels on a safe trip. Maybe I will let my player use move to lauch an AT-ST to Vader's Advanced to prevent the hunt, but not to hurl it and kill Vader just because Force rules are "OP".

I'm a lucky master

And Slaunyeah, yep, PC are awesome, I can imagine Padme convincing Obi-Wan with Negotiation or Charm or even Deception, but not wining him in a battle. Every char has its on place, but Force is capable of things that,generally, not Force ones are really difficult that they achieve that. Not invincible, but Force, in my opinion, MUST HAVE an awesome advantage in a few or a lot of fields.

Valid concerns, but I trust in FFG to provide a (largely) balanced game system that works well. Not failed us yet on this, nai?

XDDD I wasn't so lucky always Col. Orange. In my first games players used to do that awful things to sirvive, even between them. We call that the "Dungeon' Spirit".

In actual times, if a player do cinematic things to create a good scene I help him/her. For example: my player has encountered with Darth Vader, and instead killing him (try) or do nasty tricks he just tries to stop him allowing rebels to scape and my way to thank him that its that in that moment a Y-Wing pilot yells "duck" while shoots at Vader and my char Force Jumps to the Y-Wing escaping leaving Vader undamaged and with his lightsaber and letting rebels on a safe trip. Maybe I will let my player use move to lauch an AT-ST to Vader's Advanced to prevent the hunt, but not to hurl it and kill Vader just because Force rules are "OP".

I'm a lucky master

We had an entire campaign of backstabbing once (it was Elric/Stormbringer though) that pretty much killed off anyone's taste for open PvP.

Faced with Vader retreat would be, I think, the choice all of us would make, if there seemed an opportunity.

...Well, I had a Scout/Jedi make it to the end of the free Dawn of Defiance campaign. By the end he was too "polluted" to be a figure around which you'd rekindle the Jedi order - he understood that and saw that his destiny couldn't ever be better than being a weapon pointed at Darth Vader's head.

I'd quite like to know what d20/SAGA players and GMs thought of those rules? Would you like Force and Destiny to be as be as flashy as the powers and talents were in that?

(Personally I prefer the rougher feel of EotE's take, though the d20 stuff did represent the feel prequel era films well.)

In that aspect I'm closer to newest movies and the best one, Clone Wars. I would like that players can be capable to do exactly what Jedi/Force users do there, no more and no less.

As I said I like and want the idea that some guy can lift and attack with a AT-ST without not so much problems because he/she a telekinetic savage, but also like the concept that while that Jedi is using the Force, a hidden Stormtrooper can shoot and kill the Force user.

Edge has a special feature that players can do AWESOME things thanks to minion effect (and others), but also can be destroyed "easily" thanks to the systems. I love this! Power and fragility.

And Slaunyeah, yep, PC are awesome, I can imagine Padme convincing Obi-Wan with Negotiation or Charm or even Deception, but not wining him in a battle. Every char has its on place, but Force is capable of things that,generally, not Force ones are really difficult that they achieve that. Not invincible, but Force, in my opinion, MUST HAVE an awesome advantage in a few or a lot of fields.

Sure, because Padme isn't a tricked-out combat twink. When Obi-Wan does meet a non-nameless combat specialist (ie. Jango Fett) they pretty much fight to a standstill. And considering that Padme's primary focus wasn't to win all the combat all the time, she still held her own pretty good, even while jedi were being murdered all around her.

And that's the thing. Sure, Force Users can do magic which non-magic people can't, but that doesn't make them inherently better. You can't convince me that every nameless jedi who was murdered under order 66 by random nameless clone troopers were inherently more awesome than Han Solo.

Also, I've had much longer, much better thought out and significantly more eloquent posts on this topic, but searching through the forums seems a pretty hopeless proposition, so I won't pursue the topic again.

Suffice it to say I strongly disagree with the idea that force users should be better than everyone else. That's simply not the Star Wars I see on my TV screen.

Nope, I'm not saying that Force users are just better that the other in general therms. I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm exposing my point of view and I'm open to change. I don't use to say "that no one can convince me" because I will listen, and if your idea is better than my own, I will change and "upgrade" it.

Cade Bane uses his cunning and tricks and even sometimes direct combat to fight Obi and Ani. He uses to win, or at least survive. Force can do things that people without technology or beeing from another specie can't usually do. While a Jedi can pick a speeder with the Force to some droids but at that time, 20 droids fire at the Jedi with blasters. Wich option is better?

As I say, a char like Padme is awesome, but probably she can't fight Darth Maul or Count Dooku. Jango or Bane can.

Force uses to give a great advantage, but a turbolaser is better than a push XDD Jedis from the temple sometime lack of field experience.

As conclusion, Force users have A LOT of advantage, but this doesn't mean that is the best option or that Jedi are better than anyone else.

Pfft. Jedi or not. I can best them all... because I'm the GM. That makes me God, yo.

Valid concerns, but I trust in FFG to provide a (largely) balanced game system that works well. Not failed us yet on this, nai?

YMMV

They've been planning this since long before any of the three games went to playtest even. Leaving the Jeeedaai book until last was very smart - they've had that much longer to see where the basic Force rules cause problems.

I think you're right - they're going to get it right (for me, at least).

You're just saying that 'cause you're a penguin.