A while back, I asked Sam Stewart a question regarding what looked to be a conflict between a bit of rules text on page 278 and the individual descriptions of various Force power upgrades.

The rule text in question is the last sentence found in the second column, third paragraph of page 278, which states:

"Unless specified otherwise, each ability may be activated multiple times."

Single sentence, stuck at the end of a paragraph, and fairly easy to miss.

Now, if you look at some of the Upgrades, such as the Duration Upgrades for Move and Influence, or the Range Upgrades for any of three powers, they all end with a version of the following sentence:

"The Force user may activate this multiple times, increasing the (Upgrade) multiple times. However, remember the Force user must still spend Force points to activate the power's actual effects."

Now, the answer I got back from Sam was that, in effect, the above text was completely redundant, and that by his answer, you can activate any upgrade or basic effect of a Force Power multiple times so long as you have the Force Points to pay for it all.

So for instance, you could trigger the Strength Upgrade of Move multiple times, even though it doesn't have the "may activate multiple times" game text that other Move Upgrades have, thus potentially allowing for Force-based stunts in the vein of Force Unleashed (aka the gold standard for overpowered Force-users) on a semi-regular basis with a Force Rating 3, gaining the ability to potentially hurl capital ships around with your mind. Or if you rolled two Light Side points when using Sense's basic effect, you could both sense all life forms within Short Range and the emotions of one Engaged person. Perhaps most worrisome effect is that a Force-user could trigger the basic effect of Influence several times on the same target, in effect dealing 1 point of Strain per each Force Point spent on the target (which coincidentally would largely cover Vader's Force grip/choke that we see in the films, figuring he was using on Rival-tier NPCs).

So while I do have to eat some crow in regards to being able to activate a Force ability several times as the default, this really does worry me in light of Force & Destiny being on the horizon. I asked a follow-up in regards to Ongoing Effects and committing multiple Force dice to the same effect (which I've long read to be that you can't do), but it might be a while before I get an answer, which given the above response to the initial question I'm kind of dreading.

For my own games, I'll probably stick with my initial interpretation and strike that sentence found on page 278 so as to keep Force-users in check. While I'm a big fan of the Jedi, I really don't want to see this system suffer the "Jedi superhero" problems that prior editions of the game were subject to. I really do hope this gets a second look in light of Force & Destiny allowing PCs to go past Force Rating 3. To be blunt, in spite of all the talk of all three games being designed as a universal whole, the above regarding Force-users (with a long and notorious history of being unbalanced) feels to be very short-sighted.

I can see your trepidation but I'm still at the wait and see stage. Right now (EotE & AoR) Force users are still somewhat limited compared to other focused Careers, their powers are used mostly to support other skills/combat abilities and have the similar costs as other comparable Talents. With F&D will come more powers but also more information and hopefully the tools for balancing those powers.

I expect the Damage potential, as well as other skills and abilities, for a Force user (Jedi or whatever) will be on the same par as the current careers just skinned differently. There will likely be other powers that could overshadow "normal" careers but those will likely come with other costs and/or related to the Destiny mechanic.

This sounds like an oversight to me, none of the upgrades actually say they can't be activated multiple time, do they? Why even include an "Unless specified otherwise" clause if nothing takes advantage of it? I think a lack of text saying you can activate it multiple times may be a sign that you shouldn't be activating it multiple times. I mean, if someone has all the strength upgrades on Move they could be moving around sillhouette 8 objects with just two light-side points.

This sounds like an oversight to me, none of the upgrades actually say they can't be activated multiple time, do they? Why even include an "Unless specified otherwise" clause if nothing takes advantage of it? I think a lack of text saying you can activate it multiple times may be a sign that you shouldn't be activating it multiple times. I mean, if someone has all the strength upgrades on Move they could be moving around sillhouette 8 objects with just two light-side points.

This isn't the only forward written rule in the RAW, I imagine there will be powers in F&D that won't be able to be activated multiple times and it will be called out then.

This sounds like an oversight to me, none of the upgrades actually say they can't be activated multiple time, do they? Why even include an "Unless specified otherwise" clause if nothing takes advantage of it? I think a lack of text saying you can activate it multiple times may be a sign that you shouldn't be activating it multiple times. I mean, if someone has all the strength upgrades on Move they could be moving around sillhouette 8 objects with just two light-side points.

Wouldn't that require 3 points?

Once for the base power

once for the upgrade

once for the reapplication of the upgrade

I heard back from Sam on the Ongoing Effects bit, and on that part at least I was right, in that you can't commit multiple Force dice to the same Ongoing Effect.

FuriousGreg,

I'm also of the "wait and see" camp, though I did mention in my response to Sam that maybe this is something that needs to be looked at in light of Force & Destiny, and will be something I'll suggest during the F&D Beta test period. The "activate anything multiple times" isn't a big deal when dealing for PCs that only have a Force Rating of 1 or 2, but becomes more worrisome at Force Rating 3 (possibly with AoR's Force Emergent), and will only grow as a concern as PCs gain the ability to purchase even higher Force Ratings. I know there's a camp of folks that have allowed their players to use Dedication to increase one's Force Rating, so they're bound to run into the issue a lot sooner.

Revanchist7,

It could be an oversight, a hold-over from the Beta (which did specify the "can activate multiple times" for certain Upgrades during the Week 2 revision of Force Powers), or a bit of "future-proofing" as FuriousGreg indicated.

I'll admit that my weakest area of understanding so far in the game is the Force Powers, so I'm coming at this with the Core Rulebook open, and am still getting my head around them. The way I'm reading this is that a Force Rating 3 character tops out at a Silhouette 4 object, period... even if a power can be activated multiple times.

Let's assume a Force Rating 3 character, who for whatever reason activates a Move power and has not reserved any dice for defense or other purposes. Said character has spent the experience points to get all four strength upgrades. Assuming a phenomenal roll, and the force user generates 6 light side pips. They spend 1 pip to activate move, and spend 1 more pip to increase the strength, which means they can move up to 1 silhouette 4 object. They have 4 pips left over, and then activate move again for 1 pip and strength upgrade for 1 more pip... and possibly one more time.

The question is, does the second activation push the silhouette up to 8, or even 12, OR does the strength upgrade top out at 4? I tend to put this into the same category as "does armour stack" --ie. use the maximum value, rather than add it up.

Even with multiple activation, I'm seeing this topping out at Silhouette 4 period. Move can be triggered multiple times, but I don't see the silhouette values stacking. So triggering it multiple times on a single object would be effectively redundant. However, I do see the above force user being able to effectively juggle/move around 3 YT-1300s with such an awesome roll.

Since the force power: move tree maxes out a Strength Upgrade of 4, hurling star destroyers around isn't going to happen. Still, flinging freighters around isn't anything to sneeze at, but pulling star destroyers out of orbit isn't on the list.

This sounds like an oversight to me, none of the upgrades actually say they can't be activated multiple time, do they? Why even include an "Unless specified otherwise" clause if nothing takes advantage of it? I think a lack of text saying you can activate it multiple times may be a sign that you shouldn't be activating it multiple times. I mean, if someone has all the strength upgrades on Move they could be moving around sillhouette 8 objects with just two light-side points.

Wouldn't that require 3 points?

Once for the base power

once for the upgrade

once for the reapplication of the upgrade

Quick observation: my previous post assumed that one upgrade is applied only once. But that having been said, even if the upgrade can be applied more than once, it is still dependent upon the strength upgrade purchased, not the amount of force pips applied, so it still tops out at 4 maximum...

So, a question I have is: if you activate a base power multiple times, do you have to activate an upgrade for each power, or do activated upgrades apply to all activations of the base power?

For example, if I activate Influence three times to cause 3 strain, do I need to spend 1 point, or 3 points, to upgrade the range for all the activations?

Quick observation: my previous post assumed that one upgrade is applied only once. But that having been said, even if the upgrade can be applied more than once, it is still dependent upon the strength upgrade purchased, not the amount of force pips applied, so it still tops out at 4 maximum...

That would make sense, but it doesn't seem to be the case, and that's the issue. Nothing says there is a maximum at the number of upgrades you've purchased, just that the sillhouette increases proportionatly with your ranks. So someone with all the upgrades is using them four per light-side point.

On the whole, it does knock up their power a bit, but I don't see it as a big problem for most powers available right now.

In terms of base power activation, for things like Move, in the short term (lower force ratings), speaking only about the weaponized version, it does provide access to tossing more things at an enemy without needing to auto-fire (which would increase that discipline check, and require the 2 advantage each time to use, and obviously needs at least 1 magnitude upgrade), but still requires another force pip to use. In the long run (higher force ratings), it will let players use things like Move to toss multiple things multiple times across multiple discipline checks - this means they don't need to generate all the advantage they need for auto-fire in one go, but can break it up across multiple tries. THIS is where things can get a bit out of control. But it's important to remember that a player still needs to do their discipline checks, and things like ranged defense and adversary (despairs can be a good way of ceasing Move from being used again the rest of the turn or even multiple turns) apply to the rolls. Not to mention that throwing tons of stuff will end up leaving nothing worth throwing in the room after a while, One question though, does normal range difficulties apply? Like short range adds 1 difficulty on top of the silhouette's difficulty, medium and engaged adds 2 difficulty, etc.?

In terms of the upgrades activating multiple times, this isn't really a surprise. Many upgrades tend to say that they can be used multiple times by paying extra force pips.

I think silhouette size is still going to be limited by the number of ranks purchased. Multiple activations of Move don't mean you've increased the ranks you've purchased, you still only have 4 ranks available to buy so I think it's 4 regardless.

I think force rating will be capped like a skill at 5, that will let a Jedi buff a couple attributes and do some other force trickery maybe.

In regards to people allowing dedication to raise Force Rating, that is just flat out breaking the rules.

The text under Basic Power for Influence on p. 281 states that "The basic power has one effect that can be triggered multiple times on the same or different targets." so already per RAW a force user can cause more than one Strain to a target.

Also, since the Strength upgrade for Move doesn't mention the use of the upgrade multiple times, but the Magnitude and Range ones do (in the non-chart text), I'm of the mind that the text on p.278 is faulty.

(Although this particular power seems to be the only place it really makes a big deal, I don't see precedence outside of Force Unleashed for tossing around capital ships. Perhaps someone should specifically ask Sam if the intent for Move was to be this powerful or not.)

Im a little unsure why the OP is worried that Jedi are going to be overpowered, at least compared to EotE and AoR characters. They will be. Hopefully it wont be as bad as in previous games, but the Jedi wouldn't stand out much if they were on the same power level as regular soldiers and ne'er-do-wells. For Force users to be worth anything they have to be more powerful than other Careers. The trade off will be a lack of specialization and requiring more XP to get to the top of their powers. Im wondering if part of the balance will be that you wont see as many Triumphs coming from Force users. Just look at the Enhance power in AoR. On face value it seems incredibly strong, giving, allowing a character without many skills or high ability scores to boost their power, yet that leaves them unable to gain triumphs, just flat success and advantage. It looks to me like you'll see force users as being stronger across the board, but "normal" folks will be able to outshine in their chosen fields.

Quick observation: my previous post assumed that one upgrade is applied only once. But that having been said, even if the upgrade can be applied more than once, it is still dependent upon the strength upgrade purchased, not the amount of force pips applied, so it still tops out at 4 maximum...

Nope. According to Sam (and I included the Strength Upgrade to Move as a specific example in my question), the only existing limit is how many Force Points you spend to trigger the Strength Upgrade.

So if a PC has purchases two Strength Upgrades, they could trigger it three times (assuming they generate enough Force Points in the first place) to affect a Silhouette 6 object. Granted, you're talking a fairly powerful Force-user (Force Rating 3 at least) in order to pull this off with any kind of regularity, but the potential is there, especially once Force & Destiny enters circulation.

So, a question I have is: if you activate a base power multiple times, do you have to activate an upgrade for each power, or do activated upgrades apply to all activations of the base power?

For example, if I activate Influence three times to cause 3 strain, do I need to spend 1 point, or 3 points, to upgrade the range for all the activations?

From my reading, it'd be one 1 Force Point to activate the Range Upgrade, making it a total cost of 4 Force Points in this particularly instance.

Im a little unsure why the OP is worried that Jedi are going to be overpowered, at least compared to EotE and AoR characters. They will be. Hopefully it wont be as bad as in previous games, but the Jedi wouldn't stand out much if they were on the same power level as regular soldiers and ne'er-do-wells. For Force users to be worth anything they have to be more powerful than other Careers. The trade off will be a lack of specialization and requiring more XP to get to the top of their powers. Im wondering if part of the balance will be that you wont see as many Triumphs coming from Force users. Just look at the Enhance power in AoR. On face value it seems incredibly strong, giving, allowing a character without many skills or high ability scores to boost their power, yet that leaves them unable to gain triumphs, just flat success and advantage. It looks to me like you'll see force users as being stronger across the board, but "normal" folks will be able to outshine in their chosen fields.

The problem is that West End Games' D6 version of Star Wars was built along a similar line. And in that system, once the Force-users got their Force skills up to the point they could reliably activate them, they very quickly made the other characters look weak by comparison. Add in a lightsaber and even the best shot in the galaxy couldn't compete with the raw damage output a Jedi had; a mundane PC could manage to damage a TIE Fighter with a really lucky shot, while a Jedi Knight could hew through that same TIE Fighter without too much trouble.

Consider just the Influence power, which right now is the only means of direct damage available to a Force-user. On the surface of things, 1 point of Strain damage per activation doesn't look like much, especially in comparison to a blaster rifle (Damage 9) or heavy blaster rifle (Damage 10 with Pierce 2).

However, Strain damage bypasses Soak Value, and there's no means for the target to resist the effects of the basic Influence power. At Force Rating 1 or 2, it's not a huge deal because the PC won't be able to generate a lot of Force Points, but as they hit Force Rating 3 and higher, they'll have a greater likelihood of rolling lots of Light Side Force Points, and it's not that much XP to purchase the Strength Upgrade to make it 2 points of Strain damage per activation. And since both minions and rivals stuffer Strain as Wound damage, that means a powerful Force-user will have the means to take out those targets in a single attempt, where the guy with the rifle has to contend with the target's Soak Value and any defensive traits (Adversary talent or defense ratings) they might have.

Again, while not really an issue for purely EotE or AoR games, which a Force-user is capped at Force Rating 2 (or 3 if the GM permits a PC to take the universal Force-Sensitive specializations from both books), it will be a concern once Force & Destiny rolls around. During the early days of EotE, there was a lot of folks worried about Jedi being the superhumans that we saw in prior RPG systems and video games (Force Unleashed in particular and even the Jedi Knight games to a degree) as well as in recent media such as The Clone Wars and even some of the novels (It's been joked that most writers have to spend more time keeping post-RotJ Luke some simply resolving the book's plot in a few pages than how other folks might work to resolve the same plot).

I fully understand that, and in the context of EotE and AoR, they seem to be relatively on par with the other careers. In Force and Destiny though, they should be "God Mode" compared to a Character built from the other careers. Otherwise the whole book will seem rather flat imo. You should see Jedi leaping and flipping through the air, deflecting blaster bolts with ease, and Sith Acolytes Force Lightning the beejezus out of shmucks left and right. I really hope its a Deathwatch vs Dark Heresy power scaling if previous products by FFG are any indicator.

I really hope its a Deathwatch vs Dark Heresy power scaling if previous products by FFG are any indicator.

Which make it totally against what FFG has said they will be doing with the line. All three core books and lines are being designed to be played together. If they create "god mode" F&D that will defeat their intended purpose.

Well as I use to say, I prefer canon that balance. GM have the power to negate players to pick up Force/Jedi chars.

I just want that Jedi can do things that do in Clone Wars and movies just becose thats the reality of SW. A friend of mine never used NPC elves in LotR because he hates elves XD

GM is the last balancing tool. Don't let pick up Force chars if you don't wish OP chars, or limitate upgrade option to "you need a master or a learning source" (in Rebelion Era that is almost impossible). So I prefer that FFG create a canon version, and I personally would take care about the game "balance".

I have a few doubts about powers and their mechanics but, I hope that some new FAQ/Errata or in the new book they clarify this.

Until the moment I'm 99% happy with Edge (The last 1% is the shield "concept")

Take care people!

I dont think they are "meant" to be played together so much as that they CAN be played together. The 40k line could be "played together" but due to certain talents, traits, and psyker powers changing from CRB to CRB it quickly became a nightmare. Not to mention the sheer difference in power of a Deathwatch Marine vs even a DH: Ascension character. If you cant make a Jedi Knight that doesnt stand head and shoulders above a non-force user in Force and Destiny, then im not sure what they're going to put in the book that they already haven't in the other two. Force users duking it out is a weight class that characters from EotE or AoR shouldnt even be contending in. Then it becomes a GM issue of making sure you arent trying to run an Edge game with one player rolling a Jedi Knight from Force and Destiny. Of course hes going to disrupt the game, hes not meant to be there.

I think of Jedi in terms of glass jaw. I think they will be able to do amazing things but in the PT clearly they can be gunned down by either an experienced opponent ie Jango Fett, or massed fire from a bunch of troopers. At some point their abilities can be overwhelmed.

I'm also reasonably certain F&D will have more in depth explanation and examples of force use, it's almost a given really.

I agree, i dont think they should be nigh invulnerable murder machines, but they should be capable of amazing feats, well out of the ordinary from other PCs. Just look at the enhance power. 3 upgrades and you can jump nearly 100 feet straight up. Can any other Career do that? Heck no. But that doesnt mean the enhance power is broken. The Force is what sets the Star Wars universe apart from other Sci-Fi realms. If the Force powers are artificially weak and nerfed then what incentive is there to be playing Star Wars? Yes, yes i know plenty of people like the setting for reasons other than the Force, but thats whats iconic about it. Other wise you have a story about a band of ragtag freedom fighters rebelling against the evil galactic evil guys, and i've seen/read dozens of those stories.

I dont think they are "meant" to be played together so much as that they CAN be played together. The 40k line could be "played together" but due to certain talents, traits, and psyker powers changing from CRB to CRB it quickly became a nightmare.

Then that completely goes against their intention of making them compatible. They end up creating the same situation that they inherited with the 40K line. And from what has been said they have no intention of recreating that scenario.