Agreed, the Astartes generally don't side with radicals, they hunt them down. However depending on what chapter( blood ravens, relictors) they might join if some kind esoteric artifact or ancient knowledge were at stake.

I'd be hesitant to put too much railroading into the story line, just because if the players catch on and they feel like they hit an invisible wall where they can't do something they should be able to do just because the GM doesn't want the plot device killed, it can unravel the suspension of belief for them.

What would happen if he were to die? Are you able to recover from that and still have a fun plot line? Or is it all resting on his survival?

Another incentive is authority. You could simply have an Inquisitor or watch Commander order the group to bring the NPC in alive.

The Watch Commander would probably be the superior choice. In FFG's version of the setting, the Deathwatch is merely allied to the Inquisition, rather than being a part of it, so unless the group has houseruled this part of the background, an Inquisitor would not have command authority over the player characters. He or she could still try to reason with the PCs, but the consequences of the player characters simply saying "no" are much less severe than disobeying a superior from their own organisation,

In fairness an Inquisitor isn't just 'some bloke' even to a normal Space Marine Chapter it's just that the Astartes are less intimidated by the position.

However if an Inquisitor makes a reasonable request of the Astartes it will generally be agreed to.

On the rare occassions that an Inquisitor feels he needs to order an Astartes to do something that is such a rare occasion in its own right that most Astartes would think carefully before disobeying. An example would be the invovlement of the Inquisition in the Badab War. On the orders of the Inquisition even the successionist Chapters of the Mantis Warriors, Lamenters and Executioners provided gene-samples and the Executioners allowed an Inquisitorial delgation to inspect their homeworld. Only the Astral Claws refused. It is is notable that after the war the Astral Claw prisoners were all executed.

In addition the loyalist Chapters of the Fire Hawks and the Marines Errant also submitted to Inquisitorial investigation to prove their orthodoxy.

Finally in the same conflict the distrust of the Inquisitorial Legate was enough to ensure that the Red Scorpions agreed to the Raptors withdrawing from the conflict.

In short an Inquisitor does have authority over Astartes it's just that for various military and political reasons they don't exercise it in the same way that they would with general Imperial citizenry.

A really good real life example would be the way that the Inquisition (the real-world Inquisition) interacted with the Knights of Malta . btw I would really really recommend every Deathwatch GM reading about the Knights Of Malta, not only were they boss but they also give a great insight into how an actual Knightly Order with parallels to the Deathwatch (i.e one drawing knights from across Europe for tours of duty) might operate.

As for the Deathwatch, they are the Chambers Militant of the Ordo Xenos. At a fundamental level they have sworn an oath to this effect. Sure there might be wriggle room, and more so in the FFG version but if a Kill Team consistently disobeys, ignores, undermines and even abuses Inquisitorial agents then they might find themselves being called out as Oathbreakers and not necessarily by the Inquisition but by fellow marines. And then things get really messy.

From the POV of the Imperium (including the Astartes) the Inqusition are the secret guardians of humanity fighting against hidden terrors. They also act as the final arbiters of what is acceptable conduct. I would guess from a modern perspective it would seem the Inquisition is made up of interfering busy-bodies at best and religious fanatics at worst. But from an Imperial citizens point of view (and this includes Astartes) to be denounced as a heretic is a huge deal. Not only is it a formal denouncment that you are putting your soul in peril but it is also a warning to all others dealing with you.

A Space Marine Chapter may or may not be follow the the Imperial Creed but an Inquisitorial declaration of heresy would already take into account that the Marines don't follow the Imperial Creed, it is a declaration of Heresy over and above that!

In addition it would have massive political effects. A Marine Chapter may not give a flying monkey what an inquisitor thinks of them but the Administratum sure as **** do. Any supply lines from Hive Worlds are likely to dry up. Navigator Houses will be more reluctant to work with the Chapter. Vassals on worlds owned by the Chapter may grow restless knowing their masters are heretics. For fleet based Chapters worlds that provided new recruits may refuse to do so. Imperial forces grow unco-operative and unwilling to come to the Chapters help if it is requested. Imperial Navy may run blockades or interceptions on Chapter vessels. Even the Adeptus Mechanicus might rethink any contracts they have.

The role/view of Inquisitors isn't helped by GW/FFG current trend of having most Inquisitors either being mentally unstable psychopaths or secretly summoning deamons and generally abusing their position. My personal view is that 75% of Inquisitors are basically on the level, incredibly competant and widely respected. They may have radical philosophies but they don't go overboard. So for example an Isstavanian may simply espouse a wider colonisation of Deathworlds to foster conflict and wouldn't dream of helping actual rebels.

In a sense the question is mostly immaterial to me. When a KT has been assigned to an Inquisitor, he can command them. When the KT meets an Inquisitor on their mission, the KT can be seen as being already under inquisitorial command (via the DW hierarchy). He can only request. When an Inquisitor meets a KT between missions in the Watch Fortess, he can likewise initially request only - without going through the DW hierarchy and making a formal request. The KT might be en route to a briefing or have some other assignment after all.

That said, which Astartes would refuse a request from an Inquisitor - unless it was clearly an ill request? This is a complete freak occurrence. Codex chapters would be especially eager to comply. First Founding chapters, otoh, might be less blindly obedient given their status.

The Astartes and Inquisitors being partners seems to be more at the upper marines echelon. If an Inquisitor has an unreasonable request, the Watch Captain may or may not have the authority to deny it. At which point the Inquisitor would probably move up the chain of command. The Watch Commander certainly has a veto right.

The one caveat I have is that if an Inquisitor gave a command in a way that would perceived by a Kill-Team as a slight of honor. The consequences of that are less foreseeable. Unless we're talking Space Wolves, then it would be totally predictable!

Alex

When the KT meets an Inquisitor on their mission, the KT can be seen as being already under inquisitorial command (via the DW hierarchy).

The FFG Deathwatch doesn't work that way - this much is explicitly pointed out in the core rulebook, p.305. The Inquisition is merely a partner, not a higher echelon. The Kill-Team is under command of the Watch Captain, and that's it.

Or were you referring to how you personally run your game? If so, disregard this post.

Agreed, the Astartes generally don't side with radicals, they hunt them down. However depending on what chapter( blood ravens, relictors) they might join if some kind esoteric artifact or ancient knowledge were at stake.

That assumes that the DW knows a lot about secretive, insular, (largely) unofficial Inquisition factions, where even the Throne Agents may not understand their master's true nature or view. A Radical can cloak his goals and ends through very Puritan means. Radical factions don't survive in the social Darwin atmosphere of the =][= if they're openly Chaotic Stupid.

The FFG Deathwatch doesn't work that way - this much is explicitly pointed out in the core rulebook, p.305. The Inquisition is merely a partner, not a higher echelon. The Kill-Team is under command of the Watch Captain, and that's it.

Or were you referring to how you personally run your game? If so, disregard this post.

I meant that if an Inq meets a KT that's on a mission, it's as if one his peers had commanded them to do this. Unless he's an Inquisitor Lord perhaps, he can't order them to abandon their mission and comply with his wishes. He can request assistance if it doesn't interfere with their mission. That's all I have been trying to say.

Also, the quote from DW is... well, FFG should have added that unless there are extraordinary circumstances, the requests of an Inquisitor are complied with. That's one of the main purposes of the Deathwatch after all - to help out (especially Ordo Xenos) Inquisitors.

Alex

Also, the quote from DW is... well, FFG should have added that unless there are extraordinary circumstances, the requests of an Inquisitor are complied with. That's one of the main purposes of the Deathwatch after all - to help out (especially Ordo Xenos) Inquisitors.

Or the Inquisitor is supposed to help out the Kill-team. That's how a partnership of equals works. Either way, there is no authority and no command involved - that is what they decided for their version of 40k.

Or the Inquisitor is supposed to help out the Kill-team. That's how a partnership of equals works. Either way, there is no authority and no command involved - that is what they decided for their version of 40k.

However, isn't if far more logical (according to all fluff) that the Inquisition and the Ordo Xenos in particular would take the lead? I find that the Deathwatch is very well placed to put an armoured fist in the face of any threat of the Imperium, but I find them a lot less suited for intelligence gathering. After all, a kill team is hardly inconspicous at the best of times and (in my experience) all stealth goes out of the window when they put on their powerarmour. Furthermore, the average Space Marine has the social skills of a raging bull. To top it off, they are not dumb per se , ( au contraire, they are very skilled and intelligent when it comes to battle, war or any other type of violence), but as far as I can make out, they are not the brains of the organisation when it comes to detecting heresy or other hidden threats.

That's were the Inquisition comes in. They are equipped to discover foul play, hidden heresies and stealthy Xeno operations. In my opinion, the one who has the information, can produce counteractions and thus issues the orders.

Don't get me wrong. Whenever the kill team is involved in a fight, their command is absolute. Pulverising the foes, it's what they do. But when the dust settles down it'll be the inquisitor who orders them to go find the next target.

However, isn't if far more logical (according to all fluff) that the Inquisition and the Ordo Xenos in particular would take the lead? I find that the Deathwatch is very well placed to put an armoured fist in the face of any threat of the Imperium, but I find them a lot less suited for intelligence gathering.

That's one of the reasons of why I prefer GW's fluff on the subject, and why in our game my team operates under direct command of an (NPC) Inquisitor - combat or no combat. That being said, I think your assessment makes sense in the scope of the DW RPG, too - it's just that it sounds as if it should be roleplayed as a voluntary cooperation rather than a relationship between superior and subordinate, with both sides voicing suggestions and advice rather than giving commands.

A fine but potentially important difference, if you consider what motivations and ideas some Inquisitors may have. For example, in this RPG the Kill-team, not being "under orders" (unless their Watch Captain specifically said so) can simply disregard an Inquisitor's demands if they think his or her ideas are silly or even dangerous. In GW's fluff, this would constitute a case of mutiny - much more serious, and possibly something that would keep at least some Marines from taking this step even where it would have been the better option.

However, isn't if far more logical (according to all fluff) that the Inquisition and the Ordo Xenos in particular would take the lead? I find that the Deathwatch is very well placed to put an armoured fist in the face of any threat of the Imperium, but I find them a lot less suited for intelligence gathering.

That's one of the reasons of why I prefer GW's fluff on the subject, and why in our game my team operates under direct command of an (NPC) Inquisitor - combat or no combat. That being said, I think your assessment makes sense in the scope of the DW RPG, too - it's just that it sounds as if it should be roleplayed as a voluntary cooperation rather than a relationship between superior and subordinate, with both sides voicing suggestions and advice rather than giving commands.

A fine but potentially important difference, if you consider what motivations and ideas some Inquisitors may have. For example, in this RPG the Kill-team, not being "under orders" (unless their Watch Captain specifically said so) can simply disregard an Inquisitor's demands if they think his or her ideas are silly or even dangerous. In GW's fluff, this would constitute a case of mutiny - much more serious, and possibly something that would keep at least some Marines from taking this step even where it would have been the better option.

In my experience, the subtlety you describe (suggestions and advice) is non-existant (at least in the game I played). The Inquisition ordered the Deathwatch to do task A (whether it is taking out a Tau-base, convince a planet to join the Imperium, or what else), but on the terrain, when the inquisitor accompagnies the kill team and the **** hits the fan, the space marines, order the inquisitor around ("Take cover!", "Shoot the daemon!" or "Run away!").

So although there is a partnership, commands are given on a top level from Inquisition to Deathwatch, but on a microlevel this can easily be turned around.

However, the above is only based on my limited experience with DW.

Besides that, in no fluff or no account from any player, I've seen the opposite being described, namely: the Deathwatch commanding the Inquisition on a strategic level (although not seeing a black swan, doesn't prove it doesn't exist).

Is this experience based on how your GM interpreted the setting, or what it says in some FFG adventure?

It'd be a weird discrepancy if the core rulebook said one thing, and an official adventure the opposite.

Also, the quote from DW is... well, FFG should have added that unless there are extraordinary circumstances, the requests of an Inquisitor are complied with. That's one of the main purposes of the Deathwatch after all - to help out (especially Ordo Xenos) Inquisitors.

Or the Inquisitor is supposed to help out the Kill-team. That's how a partnership of equals works. Either way, there is no authority and no command involved - that is what they decided for their version of 40k.

That's an interesting question though: if an OX inquisitor denied a Watch Captain's request, perhaps without explanation, would the Watch Captain/Commander turn down that Inquisitor's request next time? Probably not, if the Inquisitor had a good case.

Yes, it's a partnership but that does not mean that it is a de facto partnership of equals - in the sense that the average Watch-Captain probably tends to be more honor-bound than an Inquisitor on average. Every Watch-Captain has a significant sense of honour; not every Inquisitor does.

Alex

True. Though this is not relevant to either my comment, the average Kill-team, or the background description in the book. You're addressing a different topic than command structure, whilst at the same time demonstrating what this partnership of equals means: that neither the KT nor the Inquisitor are subject to one another, and any sort of assistance as well as acceptance of leadership happening on a voluntary basis.

A lot of Space Marine Chapters are also honor-bound to render assistance to Imperial worlds in proximity, but that does not change anything about the governor's inability to give them orders.

When the KT meets an Inquisitor on their mission, the KT can be seen as being already under inquisitorial command (via the DW hierarchy).

The FFG Deathwatch doesn't work that way - this much is explicitly pointed out in the core rulebook, p.305. The Inquisition is merely a partner, not a higher echelon. The Kill-Team is under command of the Watch Captain, and that's it.

Or were you referring to how you personally run your game? If so, disregard this post.

Depending on how you read in other lore to it, at least from what I've found on the wiki, Inquisitors have autonomous authority paralleled to the Emperor himself. They have the authority to call in entire chapters, fleets, and what have you in order to quell a threat of corruption/chaos/warp/etc. Your Kill-Team could make their own decisions to add spice to the story, but when an Inquisitor commands, the Imperium is supposed to act.

To avoid making the players an Inquisitor lap-dog, that bit of lore might be better off not being honored for the sake of the Deathwatch game.

Is this experience based on how your GM interpreted the setting, or what it says in some FFG adventure?

It'd be a weird discrepancy if the core rulebook said one thing, and an official adventure the opposite.

Interpretation of the GM

But I stand by the argument. FFG should alter the fluff

Depending on how you read in other lore to it, at least from what I've found on the wiki, Inquisitors have autonomous authority paralleled to the Emperor himself. They have the authority to call in entire chapters, fleets, and what have you in order to quell a threat of corruption/chaos/warp/etc. Your Kill-Team could make their own decisions to add spice to the story, but when an Inquisitor commands, the Imperium is supposed to act.

Yeah, there's quite a few things where FFG's vision of the setting is different...

Though it already started with Black Industries and Dark Heresy (possibly influenced by Dan Abnett's participation?).

But I stand by the argument. FFG should alter the fluff

Personally, I found these changes to be either unnecessary or even highly negative, especially where they alter the appearance/perception and key features of entire factions. I can sort-of understand why they did stuff like, for example, female Vostroyans or mixing Storm Troopers with grunt squads (-> to give players more freedom in creating their characters), but that doesn't mean I have to think this actually makes the game better rather than just "more casual" (in regards to in-universe limitations) and watered down. Next thing we know, they might add female Space Marines too!

But that's a matter of taste and preferences - for what it's worth, I think the majority of fans actually prefers the "FFG-verse".

Personally, I found these changes to be either unnecessary or even highly negative, especially where they alter the appearance/perception and key features of entire factions. I can sort-of understand why they did stuff like, for example, female Vostroyans or mixing Storm Troopers with grunt squads (-> to give players more freedom in creating their characters), but that doesn't mean I have to think this actually makes the game better rather than just "more casual" (in regards to in-universe limitations) and watered down. Next thing we know, they might add female Space Marines too!

But that's a matter of taste and preferences - for what it's worth, I think the majority of fans actually prefers the "FFG-verse".

Bear in mind that the GM can also enforce the fluff - just say "don't take Stormtroopers." Also, female Vostroyans have shown up in the BL fiction- they aren't required to enlist, so those that do so and succeed are all the more respected.

Hammer of the Emperor gave you all the tools you needed to make a "Stormtrooper regiment."

I've been re-reading Eisenhorn and the 'limitless authority of the Inquisition' has seemed a little less limitless than I had recalled. They may be able to requisition support from any Imperial institution, but the Astartes fall outside that heirarchy; this means that Inquisitor George has to ask the Space Wolves for help. Nicely, if he knows what's good for him.

Of course, I still assume that the Deathwatch and Grey Knights are 'wholly owned subsidiaries' of their Ordos, if you will- the DW may have some autonomy when not being used, but when the Ordo Xenos calls, they come. This may not agree with FFG, but it's by fluff to manipulate and use as I will.

Also, female Vostroyans have shown up in the BL fiction- they aren't required to enlist, so those that do so and succeed are all the more respected.

Hmm. It always said "the sons" in GW fluff, but I could actually see voluntary service (and a resulting much smaller number of female recruits) being ignored in the bigger picture. I admit, it's an interesting/clever cop-out!

That was just a few examples, though. Another thing that springs to mind was the controversy regarding lasgun charge sliders that were introduced with the final version of Only War, now presented as a standard feature of all small arms las weapons - even though Black Crusade mentioned it was a heretical modification, and even though in GW's own books only the Triplex-pattern had this feature.

The real irony is that this change was driven by the players themselves, who campaigned in the Beta forums to make the game closer to the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer - which a lot of fans seem to know better than the actual Guard Codex. For once, FFG's first idea was actually an exact copy of how GW had previously described it, but people didn't want it.

Hammer of the Emperor gave you all the tools you needed to make a "Stormtrooper regiment."

Haven't read it. That said, I think making a Storm Trooper unit was already possible with the core rulebook. That's the good thing about rules that already include options to easily modify them - it makes GM enforcing (their version of) the fluff easier.

I also came up with my own version of Valhallans long before Hammer of the Emperor (which I believe includes an official version). It can be a lot of fun working with a system that lets you customise stuff!

I've been re-reading Eisenhorn and the 'limitless authority of the Inquisition' has seemed a little less limitless than I had recalled. They may be able to requisition support from any Imperial institution, but the Astartes fall outside that heirarchy

That's directly contradicted by the TT rulebooks, though - kind of reinforcing my point:

"Each Inquisitor is a peer of the Imperium, one of a finite elite who hold ultimate authority over mankind. As such, an Inquisitor can recruit any military or civilian force in the pursuit of Imperial duties, from hive world security details through entire Space Marine Chapters, Titan Legions and vessels of the Imperial Navy."

Unless you are referring to the small but important difference between official authority and real life? But then again, a random Guardsman can always say "no" to an Inquisitor as well. He'll just have a somewhat harder time getting away with it.

I've been talking about this interesting semi-political detail at greater length (and with more quotes) here , if you're interested.

Thanks for the link, that was interesting. I didn't do a follow-on post because I am hesitant to do a fourth-month necro.

I may be branded heretic for this, but I put the GW codex "inquisitors have absolute authority" interpretation in the "everything I have been told is a lie/propaganda/rumour" category. They may have authority over the offices of the Imperium, but I still consider the Astartes autonomous... mostly.

I think of each chapter as a small nation unto itself whose primary economic export is murder. They trade murder for economic support, and most of them hold the governorship of a patch of land- whatever world their chapter keep sits on.

For those chapters who maintain distant rule, they're just renters and that doesn't give the Inquisition much power over them. Conversely, in the case of those who maintain direct rule (*cough* smurfs *cough*), since they maintain an Imperial governorship in their own right an Inquisitor could go to them directly and say "Governor Calgar, I require your most elite forces for such-and-such a task," and he would be legally bound by that directive. It's all a matter of going to the chapter masters who hold an Imperial title, rank or duty.

This mental model makes me happy because A) it portrays some Astartes as more independent and therefore Imperial organization as less monolithic, which suits me B) it allows for more politicking, which suits me and C) it allows for dicking with the Ultramarines, which suits me.

Bear in mind that, under this model, the Deathwatch and Grey Knights both hold Imperial positions as Chambers Militant, making them expressly subservient to the big ][.