Heavy Bolters vs. Autocannons

By Werewindlefr, in Dark Heresy Second Edition Beta

Lasguns are ... better than one expects.

Especially (obviously) with FRFSRF, but considering their price, against most infantry really.

Mainly because they are so cheap.

OK. This has been a long digression :) . From which I extract two things. 1) in TT, if you are planning on going up against infantry of any sort and not vehicles or Monstrous Critters, ALWAYS take the heavy bolter over the autocannon. 2) FFG is not modelling the TT weapons effectively at all. :)

This post is probably slightly misleading though as the ACs relative performance gets better against GEQ-opponents where it ignores armour.

Alex

OK. This has been a long digression :) . From which I extract two things. 1) in TT, if you are planning on going up against infantry of any sort and not vehicles or Monstrous Critters, ALWAYS take the heavy bolter over the autocannon. 2) FFG is not modelling the TT weapons effectively at all. :)

This post is probably slightly misleading though as the ACs relative performance gets better against GEQ-opponents where it ignores armour.

Alex

The heavy bolter also ignores 5+ armour (I assume GEQ means "Guardsman Equivalent").

Actually the AC is worse (relatively) against GEQ because S7 and S5 are identical against T3.

Vs. GEQ:

Autocannon: 1/2 x 5/6 = 5/12 x 2 = 5/6 = 0.83

Heavy bolter: 1/2 x 5/6 = 5/12 x 3 = 15/12 = 1 1/4 = 1.25.

The heavy bolter is 50% better against GEQ than the autocannon (as you would expect, since against GEQ it is effectively a shorter-range autocannon with a 50% higher rate of fire).

In comparison to our 2 lasguns at 12" range:

1/2 x 1/2 x 2/3 = 2/12 = 1/6 x 4 = 2/3 = 0.67

With FRFSRF:

1/6 x 6 = 1

So, against GEQ, the autocannon performs almost identically to 2 lasguns and is about 20% worse if there is FRFSRF. The heavy bolter on the other hand is much better in both cases.

BTW the _real_ heavy infantry killer is the multilaser (which is not man-portable).

Vs. MEQ: 1/2 x 5/6 x 1/3 = 5/36 x 3 = 15/36 = 5/12 = 0.42 (compare to the autocannon's 0.28)

Vs. GEQ: 1/2 x 5/6 x 2/3 = 10/36 = 5/18 x 3 = 15/18 = 1.04 = 0.83 (same as the autocannon)

Like I said, the main advantage of these weapons over simple lasguns against infantry seesm to be range.

Edited by bogi_khaosa

Like I said, the main advantage of these weapons over simple lasguns against infantry seems to be range.

And the AC instagibs T3 multi-wound models. Maybe it doesn't sound very important, but sometimes, you want that Ethereal dead ASAP.

Like I said, the main advantage of these weapons over simple lasguns against infantry seems to be range.

And the AC instagibs T3 multi-wound models. Maybe it doesn't sound very important, but sometimes, you want that Ethereal dead ASAP.

Yeah I mentioned that. :I It's a niche function only applicable to certain armies.

Edited by bogi_khaosa

So, against GEQ, the autocannon performs almost identically to 2 lasguns and is about 20% worse if there is FRFSRF. The heavy bolter on the other hand is much better in both cases.

This is pretty much what was to be expected, no?

Alex

The heavy bolter is 50% better against GEQ than the autocannon (as you would expect, since against GEQ it is effectively a shorter-range autocannon with a 50% higher rate of fire).

And that's where DH2 fails, because extra rate of fire doesn't add much at these rates of fire in the DH rules. Not only that, but a heavy bolter will not reliably kill a slightly tought normal dude where the autocannon will. In other words, using a "Tabletop translator" is a silly idea because GW has already stated that the "real" space marine depicted in the fluff would be worth 100 points, not 15. In other words, it's better to try to achieve some sort of balance, enough to actually justify that the heavy bolter is regularly used and feared as an efficient death dealing machine.

The penalties for recoil are a terrible idea anyway. Most single-shot weapons can be balanced against autofire ones using better power-per-shot or with the accurate trait, or some other trait (good concealability...). The only balance issue is for weapons with multiple firing mode, and the fix for this marginal issue is really damaging the consistency of the armory. In my games, Autofire will be +20 and +1 hit per 2 DoS, and Semi-Auto will be +10/+1 hit per 3 DoS.

Also, I'm introducing a new trait for weapons called "anti-vehicular" which gives a -10 WS penalty because anti-tank weapons are not meant to be as accurate an assault rifle at "short" range. And FFG needs to mix-up "Man-Portable" and "Space-Marine Portable" (I'm looking at you, Lascannon and Autocannon), space marines are not the same as regular humans, even Catachans.

Lascannons, Heavy bolters, auto cannons, plasma cannons being man portable is established fluff via necromunda and some of the imperial guard special characters.

Also, the Sisters of Battle, but they have somewhat of an excuse 'cus they wear strength-enhancing power armor.

Astartes Heavy Bolters should also have Hellfire rounds as an option