When we roll for Initiative, can the winner chose whether or not to take iniative? It's a small thing, I know, but if I win the roll, sometimes I want to defer.

We spend all this time making lists, and having initiative can occassionally throw the whole thing off.

Just a polite request.

When we roll for Initiative, can the winner chose whether or not to take iniative? It's a small thing, I know, but if I win the roll, sometimes I want to defer.

This comes up a bit, and it's highly unlikely they'll change the rules. Winning or losing Initiative, shouldn't really change the outcome of the game, if it does you need to rethink how you play or how you build your list.

Init can force you to change how you play, but shouldn't stop you from winning.

When we roll for Initiative, can the winner chose whether or not to take iniative? It's a small thing, I know, but if I win the roll, sometimes I want to defer.

This comes up a bit, and it's highly unlikely they'll change the rules. Winning or losing Initiative, shouldn't really change the outcome of the game, if it does you need to rethink how you play or how you build your list.

Init can force you to change how you play, but shouldn't stop you from winning.

It's less about winning/losing and more about having options. Win the coin toss in football, and you get to decide what you want.

If you win the roll, you should get to decide what's best for your squad. Not be automatically forced to take Init whether you want it or not.

I always thought the winner of the coin flip decides if he wants initiative. It's not so much, you win or lose based on initiative but benifits some builds not to have it. The aces are a week away and a build I've been testing is:

Royal Guard Pilot (22) Push the Limits (3) 25

Royal Guard Pilot (22) Push the Limits (3) 25

Royal Guard Pilot (22) Push the Limits (3) 25

Royal Guard Pilot (22) Push the Limits (3) 25

Total 100

At pilot skill 6, these guys will shoot before most ships. There are other pilot skill 6 guys out there. Having the other 6's shoot first is not such a big deal but the moving matters. The list is trying to stay out of the way and having the enemy 6's move first gives the guards a chance to abuse the PTL as much as possible.

A coin toss is used to resolve a dispute between two parties. I guess there is nothing to stop you offering your opponent initiative though id be suspicious. As long as your TO is aware. And has ruled its okay.

This is not saying you can decide to stop using asteroids for example which would change the game mechanics, but rather you are just removing the dispute of initiative.

In the end I've seen players not have a coin so they have rolled three dice most focuses wins etc. As long as both parties and the TO are comfortable with the way initiative is decided does it matter.

Though if your opponent forces the issue it be a coin toss.

I personally build squads I can use with or without initiative.

I guess send it to FFG as a rules question.

A coin toss is used to resolve a dispute between two parties. I guess there is nothing to stop you offering your opponent initiative though id be suspicious. As long as your TO is aware. And has ruled its okay.

This is not saying you can decide to stop using asteroids for example which would change the game mechanics, but rather you are just removing the dispute of initiative.

In the end I've seen players not have a coin so they have rolled three dice most focuses wins etc. As long as both parties and the TO are comfortable with the way initiative is decided does it matter.

Though if your opponent forces the issue it be a coin toss.

I personally build squads I can use with or without initiative.

I guess send it to FFG as a rules question.

I disagree with your assessment. It seems clear that when the points are equal a coin toss determines initiative with the winner of said toss having initiative. Even if you would prefer to defer the rules don't support that.

Not that it really matters, but in cases where you don't want initiative, think of calling the toss correctly as "losing" the coin toss. That fixes everything, you get what you want if you win and what you don't want if you lose.

Galactic Funk What part do you disagree with?

The idea two players can agree to sort out initiative or people can use other objects if a coin is not available.

Your argument only has one problem you need a coin to toss, what happens if everyone turns up with out a coin the only possible outcome will be as no one can roll for initiative the entire tournament gets cancelled.

Your argument only has one problem you need a coin to toss, what happens if everyone turns up with out a coin the only possible outcome will be as no one can roll for initiative the entire tournament gets cancelled.

There is zero rules question or ambiguity surrounding initiative. The method for determining it is well defined, with no problems. There is no choice involved - like it or not, he who wins the "toss" gets initiative.

I'm willing to bet that players can resolve issues just fine if the Magical Coin Munching Monster shows up.

Not everything in the game is within your control or choice. Initiative is one of those things. There are several things you can do to control turn order. If you want to go first, bid for a higher-PS squad. If you don't, take lower PS pilots and short your squad. The initiative determination is not supposed to be an "I win, so I get it the way I want." It's merely a random determination which can go either way. That seems very intentional, and I for one hope they don't change it.

Edit: Am I remembering wrong that the official stance from FFG was to roll 3 dice and whoever has the most eyeballs wins initiative? I know we didn't make that up ourselves, because I actually hate it, but the current rules doc is back to coin toss... Was this just what they did at GenCon?

Edit: Am I remembering wrong that the official stance from FFG was to roll 3 dice and whoever has the most eyeballs wins initiative? I know we didn't make that up ourselves, because I actually hate it, but the current rules doc is back to coin toss... Was this just what they did at GenCon?

No, I remember reading that somewhere as well.

Yea, my comment wasn't about questioning how to determine initiative, merely suggesting that the player who won the roll should get the choice.

Your argument only has one problem you need a coin to toss, what happens if everyone turns up with out a coin the only possible outcome will be as no one can roll for initiative the entire tournament gets cancelled.

There is zero rules question or ambiguity surrounding initiative. The method for determining it is well defined, with no problems. There is no choice involved - like it or not, he who wins the "toss" gets initiative.

I'm willing to bet that players can resolve issues just fine if the Magical Coin Munching Monster shows up.

Not everything in the game is within your control or choice. Initiative is one of those things. There are several things you can do to control turn order. If you want to go first, bid for a higher-PS squad. If you don't, take lower PS pilots and short your squad. The initiative determination is not supposed to be an "I win, so I get it the way I want." It's merely a random determination which can go either way. That seems very intentional, and I for one hope they don't change it.

Edit: Am I remembering wrong that the official stance from FFG was to roll 3 dice and whoever has the most eyeballs wins initiative? I know we didn't make that up ourselves, because I actually hate it, but the current rules doc is back to coin toss... Was this just what they did at GenCon?

Then by your own argument your entire suggestion of not using critical hit tokens in a previous thread when you suffering critical damage has also no ambiguity as the rules are clear on that one as well.

As your entire argument there is relying on your opponent agreeing not to use them.

Galactic Funk What part do you disagree with?

The idea two players can agree to sort out initiative or people can use other objects if a coin is not available.

Your argument only has one problem you need a coin to toss, what happens if everyone turns up with out a coin the only possible outcome will be as no one can roll for initiative the entire tournament gets cancelled.

I wasn't so much concerned with the coin toss itself (or any other randomizer if a coin isn't prssent) but rather the notion of the 2 parties agreeing to let one defer initiative, regardless of the TO's involvememt.

The rules don't support the entire concept of deferring therefore imo it's not a legal or valid option in a sanctioned tournament.

I'm all for keeping it simple. Flip a coin (or roll dice) and the winner has init. No need to complicate it any further.

Then by your own argument your entire suggestion of not using critical hit tokens in a previous thread when you suffering critical damage has also no ambiguity as the rules are clear on that one as well.

Then by your own argument your entire suggestion of not using critical hit tokens in a previous thread when you suffering critical damage has also no ambiguity as the rules are clear on that one as well.

So... just to make sure here... I'm suggesting at this point that players can agree to use a method other than an actual physical coin toss to determine initiative, and it'll be fine. I have, in the past, suggested that we don't use crit tokens here locally because we don't think they do much good, and I've said explicitly that this only applies if the players both agree.

If I'm understanding this correctly, you're accusing me of... consistency??

<shrug> I guess I'll have to find a way to live with myself.

Now if you're saying that you would, as a player in a magical coin-less tournament, object to using anything other than coins to determine initiative and thereby single-handedly bring the entire tournament to a halt through your intransigence... that I would (a) completely expect of you, and (b) tell you as a TO that we were doing it differently, and invite you to the door if you didn't like it so that the rest of us could play on.

Just to check

Your saying as a TO you would kick someone out for suggesting you should follow the rules? Or are you suggesting you would kick someone out for suggesting you can use something else?

Because I do believe I have indeed used coins and dice when we didn't have a coin to determine initiative.

I also believe ive said that in this thread.

But then id expect you to misquote someone.

Just to check

The only way you couldn't understand what he said is because you're being intentionally obtuse.

Because I do believe I have indeed used coins and dice when we didn't have a coin to determine initiative.

I also believe ive said that in this thread.

But then id expect you to misquote someone.

Just to be clear, you do understand that if you have multiple coins, you can use just one of them, right?

Because I do believe I have indeed used coins and dice when we didn't have a coin to determine initiative.

So... you've used coins when you didn't have coins?

Mind... blown.

Just to be clear: This is why punctuation is your friend.

It's late and I'm having a hard time finding the particular rule for the coin flip. Is it in the rule book or tournament rules?

It's late and I'm having a hard time finding the particular rule for the coin flip. Is it in the rule book or tournament rules?

Tournament rules. The base rule is that Imperials always have initiative, but the tournament rules even it up too a random chance, both for fairness and to handle mirror matches.

It's late and I'm having a hard time finding the particular rule for the coin flip. Is it in the rule book or tournament rules?

Tournament rules. The base rule is that Imperials always have initiative, but the tournament rules even it up too a random chance, both for fairness and to handle mirror matches.

Thanks Kevin

4. Players determine initiative. Initiative goes to the player with the lowest squad point total. If both players are tied with the same squad point total, initiative goes to the player who wins a coin toss.

The rules are clear in this matter, winner of the coin toss gets initiative. So back to the request of the OP, I would also ask FFG for the chance to defer the winning of the coin toss.

Most people generally either roll 3 attack dice and see who has the most hits/crits (which can get tedious when you roll like four ties in a row), or the far superior "one person calls hits or misses, the other person rolls a die and you both get on with your lives" method.

I think if somebody wants initiative so badly because of how their list operates then you just need to make sure you get it by virtue of coming up short enough on points.

Now if you absolutely do not want initiative then you build to 100 and you are 50/50 on rolls.

Now if you have the option to defer available and your squad is so dependant on init a good player would recognize that most of the time and choose accordingly to not give you that advantage you are looking at. So again that's a 50/50 roll.

That's an unnecessary complication imo. If this was a significant factor in determining the outcome of games then I would think that it would come up more often.

Keep it simple.

Really it's a matter of perspective anyway...

If you want Init, and correctly call the coin or what ever method is used, you win. If you don't want it and call it, then you lose.

Same result either way, it's all a matter of if you want init or not. But as Galactic Funk says, it's better to keep it simple. Allowing people to chose to decline init is going to make issues more complex, because then you have to decide if having it/not having it helps you more then giving it to the other guy does.

The oft overlooked fact is that in elimination rounds, complete ties go the the one with initiative.