...What I'm really trying to underscore, though, isn't that it certainly will be good but merely that it's plausible that it might be good. Or, to turn that argument around: I don't see any reasonable argument, before we even see its dial let alone get it on the table, that it can't ever be effective.

Basically, "because it's expensive" isn't actually an argument...

But cost is in fact a reason that a ship might not be viable. Look at the TIE Advanced.

It's easy to see that cost alone is never the reason pilots are played or not played. Whether or not a ship is cost-effective is important, but that's not the same thing.

The reason Wedge is played despite his high cost is because people usually use Biggs and perhaps Luke to soak enemy fire and keep him alive. And he's only 2 points more than the cheapest E-Wing. The most expensive E-Wing could be 35 points before upgrades! A squad that runs an E-Wing with upgrades might only be able to fit two more ships, and that's probably not enough firepower and hit points to beat many other competitive squads with much consistency.

That's gives you a high-PS ship with what's shaping up to be a pretty cool ability, and it's fairly survivable with barrel roll, evade, and Artoo to help recover some hit points--it's not Chewie in the Falcon, but (assuming there's a decent amount of green on the E-wing's dial) it will likely be much more durable than a typical X-wing. And you still have 55 points left over, which is enough to run up to 4 more ships in the Wave 4 metagame. In fact, you could still run a second E-wing with two Bandit Squadron Pilots and still have enough left over for some upgrades on the E-wing (R2-A3 and a Fire Control System?) Or you could spread those points out a little bit and run a pair of Rookies with a Bandit.

That squad overall would be a little light on hit points but heavy on Agility, with decent attack. You probably don't want to keep Corran front-and-center, but he'll be an effective flanker--or you can keep him 1-2 range bands back for the first engagement round and then run him in to clean something up early in Round 2.

Again--I don't know that the E-wing will be great, but it's at least plausible that it will be a viable ship in competitive lists.

I would like to point out that people don't even know Corran Horns ability yet. How can you say he is over priced without knowing that? He is not over priced.

...What I'm really trying to underscore, though, isn't that it certainly will be good but merely that it's plausible that it might be good. Or, to turn that argument around: I don't see any reasonable argument, before we even see its dial let alone get it on the table, that it can't ever be effective.

Basically, "because it's expensive" isn't actually an argument...

But cost is in fact a reason that a ship might not be viable. Look at the TIE Advanced.

The base TIE Advanced costs the same as the base X-wing--yet the Rookie is played frequently, and so is the very expensive Darth Vader, but the Tempest is not. A-wings aren't frequently played at 17-25 points, but Firesprays frequently are played at 33-39 points.

It's easy to see that cost alone is never the reason pilots are played or not played. Whether or not a ship is cost-effective is important, but that's not the same thing.

We're clearly talking about cost efficiency here. Any time cost is mentioned when discussing this game, cost efficiency is the matter at hand. C'mon.

The reason Wedge is played despite his high cost is because people usually use Biggs and perhaps Luke to soak enemy fire and keep him alive. And he's only 2 points more than the cheapest E-Wing. The most expensive E-Wing could be 35 points before upgrades! A squad that runs an E-Wing with upgrades might only be able to fit two more ships, and that's probably not enough firepower and hit points to beat many other competitive squads with much consistency.

So say it is 35 points for Corran, plus 3 points for Push the Limit, 4 points for R2-D2, and 3 points for Advanced Sensors. That's a hypothetical total of 45 all loaded up; I probably wouldn't run him that way, but it's a reasonable upper limit.

That's gives you a high-PS ship with what's shaping up to be a pretty cool ability, and it's fairly survivable with barrel roll, evade, and Artoo to help recover some hit points--it's not Chewie in the Falcon, but (assuming there's a decent amount of green on the E-wing's dial) it will likely be much more durable than a typical X-wing. And you still have 55 points left over, which is enough to run up to 4 more ships in the Wave 4 metagame. In fact, you could still run a second E-wing with two Bandit Squadron Pilots and still have enough left over for some upgrades on the E-wing (R2-A3 and a Fire Control System?) Or you could spread those points out a little bit and run a pair of Rookies with a Bandit.

That squad overall would be a little light on hit points but heavy on Agility, with decent attack. You probably don't want to keep Corran front-and-center, but he'll be an effective flanker--or you can keep him 1-2 range bands back for the first engagement round and then run him in to clean something up early in Round 2.

Again--I don't know that the E-wing will be great, but it's at least plausible that it will be a viable ship in competitive lists.

I'll give you that it's plausible. Corran's ability might be great, the dial might be amazing. It's also quite plausible that the E-Wing won't be viable because of its cost (efficiency). At 27 points, it would be the costliest small base in the game (if not for the TIE Defender), and it would have fewer hull and shield points than the Defender, Falcon and Firespray. Maybe higher evade than the Falcon and Firespray will help make up for that, but experience seems to show that evasion dice are less reliable than more hit points.

Viability also means taking into account your other options, and at 27 to 35ish points for a naked E-Wing, I assert there will be better options for squadron builders — which means you won't see many E-Wings at top tournament tables.

I know at least one tournament where it will be prominently played.

Would people fly a ship with equivalent stats to a falcon on a small base for 46 points? Small base is an advantage over a large base for many things. Given upgrades and high p.s. We could easily see 40 points on one of these. If the high agility keeps it alive as well as I think it will with 5 hp, it could very well be cost efficient.

Would people fly a ship with equivalent stats to a falcon on a small base for 46 points? Small base is an advantage over a large base for many things. Given upgrades and high p.s. We could easily see 40 points on one of these. If the high agility keeps it alive as well as I think it will with 5 hp, it could very well be cost efficient.

Of course, it's agility may not seem so high against a Phantom at Range 1. Imperials are also getting a new meta.

He's talking about the E-Wing.

And yeah, it'll probably be pretty worthless in tournaments. Oh well. Just don't buy one. Except you might want one for R7-T1, or for another copy of Flechette Torpedoes, or for whatever Outmaneuver does.

Worthless or not I'm getting three, with a good dial 2 or 3 of those with upgrades will be pretty strong, especially with PTL.

...What I'm really trying to underscore, though, isn't that it certainly will be good but merely that it's plausible that it might be good. Or, to turn that argument around: I don't see any reasonable argument, before we even see its dial let alone get it on the table, that it can't ever be effective.

Basically, "because it's expensive" isn't actually an argument...

But cost is in fact a reason that a ship might not be viable. Look at the TIE Advanced.

The base TIE Advanced costs the same as the base X-wing--yet the Rookie is played frequently, and so is the very expensive Darth Vader, but the Tempest is not. A-wings aren't frequently played at 17-25 points, but Firesprays frequently are played at 33-39 points.

It's easy to see that cost alone is never the reason pilots are played or not played. Whether or not a ship is cost-effective is important, but that's not the same thing.

We're clearly talking about cost efficiency here. Any time cost is mentioned when discussing this game, cost efficiency is the matter at hand. C'mon.

The reason Wedge is played despite his high cost is because people usually use Biggs and perhaps Luke to soak enemy fire and keep him alive. And he's only 2 points more than the cheapest E-Wing. The most expensive E-Wing could be 35 points before upgrades! A squad that runs an E-Wing with upgrades might only be able to fit two more ships, and that's probably not enough firepower and hit points to beat many other competitive squads with much consistency.

So say it is 35 points for Corran, plus 3 points for Push the Limit, 4 points for R2-D2, and 3 points for Advanced Sensors. That's a hypothetical total of 45 all loaded up; I probably wouldn't run him that way, but it's a reasonable upper limit.

That's gives you a high-PS ship with what's shaping up to be a pretty cool ability, and it's fairly survivable with barrel roll, evade, and Artoo to help recover some hit points--it's not Chewie in the Falcon, but (assuming there's a decent amount of green on the E-wing's dial) it will likely be much more durable than a typical X-wing. And you still have 55 points left over, which is enough to run up to 4 more ships in the Wave 4 metagame. In fact, you could still run a second E-wing with two Bandit Squadron Pilots and still have enough left over for some upgrades on the E-wing (R2-A3 and a Fire Control System?) Or you could spread those points out a little bit and run a pair of Rookies with a Bandit.

That squad overall would be a little light on hit points but heavy on Agility, with decent attack. You probably don't want to keep Corran front-and-center, but he'll be an effective flanker--or you can keep him 1-2 range bands back for the first engagement round and then run him in to clean something up early in Round 2.

Again--I don't know that the E-wing will be great, but it's at least plausible that it will be a viable ship in competitive lists.

I'll give you that it's plausible. Corran's ability might be great, the dial might be amazing. It's also quite plausible that the E-Wing won't be viable because of its cost (efficiency). At 27 points, it would be the costliest small base in the game (if not for the TIE Defender), and it would have fewer hull and shield points than the Defender, Falcon and Firespray. Maybe higher evade than the Falcon and Firespray will help make up for that, but experience seems to show that evasion dice are less reliable than more hit points.

Viability also means taking into account your other options, and at 27 to 35ish points for a naked E-Wing, I assert there will be better options for squadron builders — which means you won't see many E-Wings at top tournament tables.

Wouldn't that be the same argument for the Tie Defender? it starts off with 30points, so in a 100 point game, with the lowest skill rated pilots, you can "only" fit 3 Defenders and 'only' have 10 points of upgrades.

The point increase of the E-wing is consistent to an upgraded X-wing (assuming the dials are the same), hull to shield (+1), extra agility (+3) (taking stealth device values, but it is a permanent extra agility, will probably worth 4 or 5), + evade + barrel roll, +systems upgrade

so an E-wing is an upgraded X-wing, it depends on if you like the upgrades or not, if you do, then you have saved the modification slot for something else, if not, you would prefer it to be an easier target to hit? for 6 points less?

I would say for 6 points, that's a good base unit upgrade, we still need to wait and see the dial...

and I do agree with what you said (or maybe I'm putting words in your mouth), that it is up to the player to determine if that extra 6 points is worth the investment.

We're clearly talking about cost efficiency here. Any time cost is mentioned when discussing this game, cost efficiency is the matter at hand. C'mon.

To be fair, I actually thought your argument was about overall cost as well, especially after using Wedge as an example to support your point, since I think many agree he is cost efficient for what he does without Biggs (and people add points to make him even more efficient).

I am very tired of "what will appear at top tournament tables" as the gold standard. That standard has been used to argue that at least three of the ships in Wave 4 are poorly designed. First, that standard is not balance. Ships that instantly appear as top ships (especially without all information) are going to be balanced in the wrong way, and yes, cost efficient, but not in a method that would be good game design.

The E-wing can definitely be competitive, but it IS expensive and will likely need some upgrades. It is obviously designed to be a superiority craft. And if Corran Horn's ability IS to let him attack in the activation phase, you can bet I will give him a go many times. The E-wing will NOT be competitive in an all E-wing list, however, due to its price. And for some reason a lot of players seem to think that mixed squads are less competitive than same ship squads. Etahn Abaht gives a great support ability to a wing of 3 X-wings. Again, if Corran Horn's ability is what has been discussed on the forums, he will be an amazing hit-and-run strike fighter.

The new wave is all about superiority craft, besides the Z95. Single, powerful but expensive ships. No one will run 3 E-wings in a tournament. No one will run 3 Defenders either, which are by the way even more expensive. The defender could be viable if it is able to keep out of front arc, and has some great unique pilots. That is what COULD (speculation, don't know at this point) make a list like a single defender alongside a swarmlet viable, or the Defender competitive to the Firespray in terms of price AND gameplay. The Firespray has a respectable dial but the large base makes it easy to shoot. And Fettigator most easily gives mobility to offense over defense. But, IF the Defender can behave similarly to the Interceptor, and consistently be outside of front arc, supplemented by high agility and high hit points, it may be competitive to have one in your squad.

Neither the E-wing, Defender, or Phantom will be competitive in like groups, but could give each side more options for mixed-ship/mixed-pilot skill squads, especially the Empire.

...And for some reason a lot of players seem to think that mixed squads are less competitive than same ship squads...

...The new wave is all about superiority craft, besides the Z95. Single, powerful but expensive ships...

...Neither the E-wing, Defender, or Phantom will be competitive in like groups, but could give each side more options for mixed-ship/mixed-pilot skill squads, especially the Empire.

Quoted for truth!

What the disagrement seems to be about is a difference of play styles. Danthrax it seems, and I appologize if Im wrong, prefers to run his lists with minimal flare. Focusing instead on redundancy as a means of minimizing the impact of the loss one of his ships. "Efficiency" is certainly achieved like that and is a totally valid playstyle as proven many times over by lists like swarms.

"Blam! There goes one of my ships. Oh Well, I've got five more where that came from. Come at me Bro!"

On the other hand, "efficiency" can also be achieved by building lists that dump a lot of points into a small number of ships and focuses heavily on its one or two strengths that compliment each other. The down side is individually they might have some clear weaknesses. Losing a ship might hurt more, but if you played them right, you did enough damage with it before it went down that it earned its points back, and so it was still an "efficient" list. HSF might fall into here.

Personally, I shoot for the middle of the road between the two (Edit) using mixed squad lists. It is more fun to play and just looks cooler to me. Eeck out as much punch as I can from each ship in my list, but still have enough redundacy that there not a clear "shoot me first" painted on the hull of one of my ships. It is not always easy to do, but hopefully with the addition of wave 4, it might get easier. For the Rebels, the E-Wing is just one more option on the upper end of the spectrum, with the Z-95 to provide some CHEAP filler that still can pack a punch.

Battlepriest has a good point about a basic E-Wing being pretty much an upgraded X-Wing, and I certainly will be looking at adding them into my lists because of that.

I really get tired of seeing these posts. Yes, MAYBE they won't be great in a tournament, MAYBE they will. No one knows yet.

What I do know is that there are more casual players then tournament players and there are reasons to be excited for the new ships other then competitive play.

I fall into the former category and am really excited for the new ships. They new sculpts are amazing(I think) and new upgrade cards are always fun. At my LGS we run all kinds of different scenarios/FFA's and every ship has a place and sometimes performs better then expected.

Relax and enjoy it for what it's supposed to be...a game.

Someone mentioned it before, but "Competitive" is a totally relative term. The Interceptor is a fraking awesome ship, but does not get played as frequently on the tournament scene because of the high risk/reward ratio it has. It is just not predictable enough to be seen in large numbers there.

I am not a "tournament player" of games, even if from time to time I will participate in one. However, having played Crack the Gathering and The-Game-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named 40k, most tournament scenes are a very select and closed off segment of any gaming community. My obsevations have been that a large portion of that group will flux towards a particular build type depending on the flavor of the month.

X-Wing's community has been far and away the best group I have experineced and FFG has done an awesome job of keeping the game balanced. Most Importantly, FFG has done an awesome job of making sure that with each successive wave they releace, they have made the previous waves relevant again.

I have never played a game before that when the next "Shut up and take my money" product comes out, I can go, "Holy crap, this would go awesome with the ships I already have!" I have spent more time reimagining my old stuff in this game than I have ever done in a game before. I dont have buyers remorse and nothing sits on my shelf collecting dust.

Just got done going over new ships and how can a one skill captain with two hull cost 27 points? Who is the ******* or holes who come up with this stuff? Seriously you have a better chance of playing pick up sticks with your butt cheeks than winning with one of these in your squad. Sigh...

It is NOT overpriced. If you'll add the cost of an extra shield to the cost of rookie pilot it would be roughly the cost of an E-wing (27vs.25). However, E-wing has an extra defense point and doubles number of available actions. And it has more upgrades. So I think, that it is worth its points, even being a hull point lower than x-wing (but 3 shields!). So maybe it is a new ship for R2-D2!