This is an interesting thought that I've been pondering recently... When holding Two-Weapons one must add an additional Difficulty Die when making attacks to trigger extra damage. But, what I'm curious about, is what it takes to trigger a off-hand weapon's quality.

For instance: PC has a Blaster Pistol and a Vibro-Blade. So, PC never uses Two-Weapon fighting - they just use the pistol by itself. However, does the 'Defensive' quality from the Vibro-Blade still upgrade the PC's defense up to rating using a maneuver? Theoretically, one could have a Vibro-Blade / Pistol Combination and have no penalty to firing a Pistol normally, but also gain the ability to pop a 'Defensive' quality maneuver of the Vibro-Blade, with no penalty, other than Encumbrance. Is this correct?

This seems like they are trying to scheme the rules and I would use normal dual wield rules. Having an additional weapon in your off hand is a distraction period and requires +1 difficulty.

If I didn't do that then it just becomes a pain. You should require before each round what weapon they are going to use for that round and not allow them to use the other one. Allowing a player to interchange weapons during combat with no penalty again to me is breaking the spirit of the game.

This seems like they are trying to scheme the rules and I would use normal dual wield rules. Having an additional weapon in your off hand is a distraction period and requires +1 difficulty.

I've been under the assumption that Dual Wield was like Auto-Fire, you have to state that you'd like to use your offhand weapon, or weapon quality, if I'm not mistaken, then upgrade the difficulty. Are you forced to upgrade the attacks of the Pistol when have a Vibro-Blade in your off-hand if you're not trying to attack with it per RAW?

First it's Two Weapon Fighting not Dual Wield, I'm not trying to pedantic but one is an EotE rule and the other can cause confusion because Dual Wielding rules in other systems can work very differently. Best to keep the nomenclature specific.

The key thing here is what constitutes use of the Blade because if you want to gain the benefit of a weapon's Quality you have be be using it not just holding onto it. Further the Two Weapon Fighting rule requires taking a penalty to be effective, no penalty no Benefit, so in this case to gain the Defensive Quality you either have to use the TWF rule to get both effects or only use the melee weapon to get the Defensive Quality.

In the case you've laid out this is how it looks like the RAW would handle it:

A PC has a pistol in one hand and a Vibro-Blade (Defensive Quality Melee) in the other.

A) Attacking with Both weapons - Use the Two Weapon Fighting RAW (not going to explain it here) - You Get the Defensive Bonus against any Melee Attacks as well.

B) Attacking with only the V-Blade - Normal and you get the Defensive Bonus but you cannot attack or do any other action with the Pistol, you are just holding it.

C) Attacking with only the Pistol - Make a regular Attack however because you did not take the penalty for TWF if you are subject to a Melee Attack you do not get the Defensive Bonus because in this case you are only holding the Vibro-Blade not using it.

Fair enough - about Dual Wielding and Two-Weapon Fighting.

Your descriptions seems well enough, as the confusions was to the passive bonuses of one of the weapons, so what you say makes sense. This is described under the Two-Weapon fighting section in the CRB, correct? I just want to make sure I get to the right page to show my player.

Well, I'm not sure if it explicitly states you must be using a weapon not just holding it because all the combat rules are written as if you are using the weapon. This is a special case where you want to benefit from two different weapons at the same time in two different types of combat (Melee and Ranged) and to do that you need to use the Two Weapon Fighting rules. Otherwise you must choose one weapon to gain it's effects.

The hitch in this case, is that the two-weapon combat for the pistol and the vibroblade would be only in engaged combat. In determining the attack, one always goes with the lowest skill and the lowest characteristic. In addition, the two-weapon combat assumes that both weapons are able to be used in a given attack. In this case, the defensive quality of the vibroblade could only be activated if the two-weapon wielder was actually at engaged range with the target. Otherwise, the character would simply be holding the blade and firing with the pistol.

Trying an example. A Corellian Captain is swashbuckling with a vibroblade and pistol. He has Brawn 3, Agility 2. And a Melee skill of 1 and ranged (light) 2.

At anything other than engaged, he'd be attacking only with the pistol. with YY., rolling against range per usual.

At engaged ranged, he could choose to simply fight with the Vibroblade, at GGY versus PP.

Two-weapon fighting, he uses the lower stat (agility), and the lower skill (melee), for GY.

At Engaged range, both the pistol and the vibroblade attacks would be PP. (ranged light P+P, vibroblade simple PP)

The difficulty is then increased by 2 dice because the two skills are different. So the Captain would be rolling GY vs. PPPP(!)

In this case, the Captain only has about a 30% chance to hit, period... but if he does, and generates 2 advantages as well (unlikely) he can also hit with the vibroblade.

Now, after all this, the Defensive characteristic of the Vibroblade is passive. In other words, the defensive nature is always active for melee defense only. Since advantage can only be spent to activate an active quality of a weapon, and not a passive quality, the point is basically moot.

Edit: On a further read, the Captain could elect to shoot at engaged range, having the shot being YY vs. PP and still benefit from the vibroblade's defensive capabilities, but only against melee attacks, and none of the vibroblade's offensive qualities could be used. Someone shooting him at engaged range is still a ranged attack, so the defensive benefits of the vibroblade wouldn't work.

Being passive I would think it would be active all the time. Think.. if the vibrosword/gun guy went last in combat he wouldn't be able to use a "passive" weapon quality's effects until after he takes his first turn..... that's not cool. It's also not very narritive, which is what truly breaks the spirit of the game.

if you need it in RAW:

pg 154. under "Item qualities," second paragraph, second sentence: "Passive qualities are ALWAYS on and require NO activation on the part of the user."

Now, after all this, the Defensive characteristic of the Vibroblade is passive. In other words, the defensive nature is always active for melee defense only. Since advantage can only be spent to activate an active quality of a weapon, and not a passive quality, the point is basically moot.

if you need it in RAW:

pg 154. under "Item qualities," second paragraph, second sentence: "Passive qualities are ALWAYS on and require NO activation on the part of the user."

This is what I recall reading, so holding the Vibro-Blade, by my player's interpretation gives the passive benefit, regardless of it's use. The tradeoff he claims, is increased encumbrance to the PC. Thanks for the help guys!

Now, after all this, the Defensive characteristic of the Vibroblade is passive. In other words, the defensive nature is always active for melee defense only. Since advantage can only be spent to activate an active quality of a weapon, and not a passive quality, the point is basically moot.

if you need it in RAW:

pg 154. under "Item qualities," second paragraph, second sentence: "Passive qualities are ALWAYS on and require NO activation on the part of the user."

This is what I recall reading, so holding the Vibro-Blade, by my player's interpretation gives the passive benefit, regardless of it's use. The tradeoff he claims, is increased encumbrance to the PC. Thanks for the help guys!

I agree that the tradeoff is adding Enc plus the downside of not having the other hand for using a larger weapon (like rifles or big melee weapons) or to use for something else (grenade, stimpack, comlink,etc.).

if you need it in RAW:

pg 154. under "Item qualities," second paragraph, second sentence: "Passive qualities are ALWAYS on and require NO activation on the part of the user."

The problem I tried to describe is use. Holding a weapon is not necessarily using a weapon especially if you are Attacking with another weapon. In this case the important thing is the PC's action, if they are using the pistol (Attacking) and are not using the TWF rule (and not taking the penalty associated with it) then they are not using the second weapon merely holding on to it and as such cannot/should not gain it's benefits.

The RAW doesn't delineate holding and using because the entire combat section assumes you are using it to make an attack but that doesn't mean there isn't a distinction in the case of Two Weapon Fighting.

if you need it in RAW:

pg 154. under "Item qualities," second paragraph, second sentence: "Passive qualities are ALWAYS on and require NO activation on the part of the user."

The problem I tried to describe is use. Holding a weapon is not necessarily using a weapon especially if you are Attacking with another weapon. In this case the important thing is the PC's action, if they are using the pistol (Attacking) and are not using the TWF rule (and not taking the penalty associated with it) then they are not using the second weapon merely holding on to it and as such cannot/should not gain it's benefits.

The RAW doesn't delineate holding and using because the entire combat section assumes you are using it to make an attack but that doesn't mean there isn't a distinction in the case of Two Weapon Fighting.

On paper, this may seem to be reasonable... but again, the vibroblade's defensive characteristics are only against incoming melee attacks. Two-weapon fighting is attempting to hit something with both weapons. The wielder has the choice to simply attack with only one of the weapons, rather than trying to hit with both. In this case, wielding the vibroblade along with a pistol has the vibroblade working more as a shield vs. melee attacks only. I think it is entirely possible to favour the pistol over the sword, but if someone is trying to hit you with their own vibro-axe, chances are you're not letting that vibroblade sit idly in your hand even if you are trying to shoot your opponent in the face. You may be not using it to attack, but because it is out and on the passive defense quality is definitely in play.

Just think of other passive quilities and how they come into play..

Cortosis, Slow-Firing, Prepare, Ion, Inaccurate, etc.... the effects of which are not activated they are a PASSIVE effect.

The vibrosword's defensive quility is "in effect" even if it is just lying on the floor....in that case the sword would get the defensive 1 against attacks targeting it even with no one "wielding" it......

It is an innate property of the item NOT a "feature" that must be "triggered" such as auto-fire, burn, guided, blast, etc......

I equate this to the player essentially carrying a shield into battle, he's got this thing he's carrying to try to block his opponents attacks. It's certainly not unreasonable that in between taking potshots he'd try to bat away attacks from anyone attempting to clobber him.

Plus we're talking about getting 1 Setback against melee attacks, at the cost of not being able to interact with the environment or use important things like stimpacks. It doesn't seem gamebreaking.

On paper, this may seem to be reasonable... but again, the vibroblade's defensive characteristics are only against incoming melee attacks. Two-weapon fighting is attempting to hit something with both weapons. The wielder has the choice to simply attack with only one of the weapons, rather than trying to hit with both. In this case, wielding the vibroblade along with a pistol has the vibroblade working more as a shield vs. melee attacks only. I think it is entirely possible to favour the pistol over the sword, but if someone is trying to hit you with their own vibro-axe, chances are you're not letting that vibroblade sit idly in your hand even if you are trying to shoot your opponent in the face. You may be not using it to attack, but because it is out and on the passive defense quality is definitely in play.

I think this was the type of mechanic the player was trying to address with his question in my game. Basically, he wants to use a Vibro-Blade as a 'parrying dagger', mostly to fend off melee attackers when they get near, rather than to use it offensively.

On paper, this may seem to be reasonable... but again, the vibroblade's defensive characteristics are only against incoming melee attacks. Two-weapon fighting is attempting to hit something with both weapons. The wielder has the choice to simply attack with only one of the weapons, rather than trying to hit with both. In this case, wielding the vibroblade along with a pistol has the vibroblade working more as a shield vs. melee attacks only. I think it is entirely possible to favour the pistol over the sword, but if someone is trying to hit you with their own vibro-axe, chances are you're not letting that vibroblade sit idly in your hand even if you are trying to shoot your opponent in the face. You may be not using it to attack, but because it is out and on the passive defense quality is definitely in play.

I think this was the type of mechanic the player was trying to address with his question in my game. Basically, he wants to use a Vibro-Blade as a 'parrying dagger', mostly to fend off melee attackers when they get near, rather than to use it offensively.

It seems perfectly reasonable to me. One point of melee defense is hardly going to break the game and he's paying for it in credits, Encumbrance, and the opportunity of cost of giving up other options in using that hand.

I think this was the type of mechanic the player was trying to address with his question in my game. Basically, he wants to use a Vibro-Blade as a 'parrying dagger', mostly to fend off melee attackers when they get near, rather than to use it offensively.

I think the player is trying to get a free bonus for no penalty and scheming the rules. I think Furious Greg sums it up perfectly.

I think this was the type of mechanic the player was trying to address with his question in my game. Basically, he wants to use a Vibro-Blade as a 'parrying dagger', mostly to fend off melee attackers when they get near, rather than to use it offensively.

I think the player is trying to get a free bonus for no penalty and scheming the rules. I think Furious Greg sums it up perfectly.

No penalty other than the cost in credits for the additional weapon, the added encumbrance, and the inability to use comlinks, stimpacks, or doors without spending an extra maneuver to put away one of the two held weapons or using an incidental to drop a weapon and risk having it stolen, left behind, kicked over the side of a cliff, eaten, etc.

If you have the sword, ready in your hand, you can use it defensively. These aren't 1/2 a second combat rounds, you should have plenty of time to shoot a pistol before you parry an incoming axe.

I've actually got some experience in this realm, given my time with the study and practice of historical swordsmanship.

This seems like they are trying to scheme the rules and I would use normal dual wield rules. Having an additional weapon in your off hand is a distraction period and requires +1 difficulty.

There is a lot of truth to this on one hand. When you first start training with an off-hand either parrying device or off-hand weapon, your ability to think, move, and react instinctively deminishes. There was one time I went into a bout with a second weapon and it functioned as a handicap, because I was just learning how to do it. Though once your brain adapts to the new extension of your arm, your muscle memory gets more attuned, you learn the strategy of a new parrying device, and you get more attuned to moving with a second weapon, then it eventually becomes an advantage.

Just think of other passive quilities and how they come into play..

Cortosis, Slow-Firing, Prepare, Ion, Inaccurate, etc.... the effects of which are not activated they are a PASSIVE effect.

The vibrosword's defensive quility is "in effect" even if it is just lying on the floor....in that case the sword would get the defensive 1 against attacks targeting it even with no one "wielding" it......

It is an innate property of the item NOT a "feature" that must be "triggered" such as auto-fire, burn, guided, blast, etc......

It really is a matter of how you use them. A sword just sitting there in someone's hand is a dead and useless thing. Being about three pounds of steel, it's something an attacker can easily manuever around in an instant. A buckler is kind of the same way. If someone is just holding it there, then it doesn't do much. If someone knows how to wield it, then it becomes a much different ballgame altogether.

If you have the sword, ready in your hand, you can use it defensively. These aren't 1/2 a second combat rounds, you should have plenty of time to shoot a pistol before you parry an incoming axe.

This is also rings true with my experience. If you know what you're doing with an item like this, you hardly need any reaction time at all. If you don't know what you're doing you can tell someone that you're going to aim at the top left side of their head, line up a blow, deliver it at half speed, and STILL hit the person. The difference is training.

Since training is reflected in talents and XP use, would your player consent to spending some "training time" with the weapon, and spent XP in order to gain the benefit?

Since training is reflected in talents and XP use, would your player consent to spending some "training time" with the weapon, and spent XP in order to gain the benefit?

Might work from an RP perspective. I haven't asked, but good point.

I don't see an issue. It is only melee defense. It only comes into play if the if the target is attacked in melee. I would consider anyone with ranks in the Melee skill "trained" to take advantage of the Defensive Quality. I don't see it as game-breaking and it captures a nice swashbuckling feel.

I'm not sure where to weigh in on this issue. I think it'd be a narritve choice that depends on the GM and the goals of the character.

One of my characters, a Politico, carries a Gaffi stick (cane) for the defensive quality. He has never attacked with it, but he has also never attacked period. He only does Scathing Tirade in combat, so I see no issue with him holding onto a melee weapon for defense when someone gets up in his face. Even though he has no skill points in melee weapons, I don't see an issue since he isn't attacking with any other weapons on his turns.

My other character is a Doctor brawler. I'd love to do the Gaffi stick trick with him too, but I just can't justify it to myself. I could make an argument that he brawls with his free hand and legs, but that just isn't the same to me. Maybe if I bought a point of melee fighting skill I could justify it to myself, but not before then.

This discussion does make me want to recreate one of my old characters in SAGA who fought with pistol and sword. A caracter who always has out a pistol and sword and normally fights with the gun, but has a sword ready for when people get into melee. I would ask my GM about using the defense quality of the sword in melee. My argument would be that he expects to fight this way, and has training in melee weapons, so he should get the defense quality for when he's just holding the sword.

If I was the GM, I'd have a discussion with the player who wants to hold a sword for just in case. If they want to shoot a gun and just hold the sword to use defense, then I'd want them to buy at least one rank of melee weapons and narritivly say they are practicing with their gun and sword technique. I'd be happy with them actually doing two weapon fighting in a fight every once in a while or just a throw away line saying they are practicing every few game sessions, such as on a long hyperspace trip.

So the situation I'm imagining is one where Ms. Swashbuckle (armed with sword and pistol) is being attacked by a Gamorrean axe-wielder, and is trying to ward off his blows using her sword. Then, Swashbuckle looks over and sees one of her friends being menaced by another foe, so she tries to fire a blaster bolt at this distant opponent.

In such a situation, would you require Two-Weapon Fighting, or are the various penalties (ranged attack while Engaged, not attacking your immediate threat, both hands being full, etc.) sufficient?

My take is that the player is trying to game the system. So what?

It's one point of Defense. 1 point. A third of the time that black die does absolutely nothing. The other two thirds it helps some. It's not enough to make Darth Vader miss. Only enough to make his inevitable crit hit a little less hard.

Letting your players get some defensive help isn't likely to have people crying foul. It just means you can send meaner people to kill him.