This is a long interesting thread. Nice to see all the different scenarios that you all come up with. Thanks.

And I do think it's a solid dial in and of itself - what IS a dial, if not the maneuvers it grants you? - which is why I was debating the point while getting hollered at about Advanced Sensors and stress.

Though, I agree that you can exploit that against players who aren't as saw has you by timing things right, that aspect doesn't improve the dial in and of itself.

Well and perhaps part of my point is "what makes a dial 'good' or 'bad?'" That's such an incredibly subjective term to begin with, even if you feel that, say, a HWK dial is inherently 'worse' than an X-Wing dial, or the Lambda dial is inherently "worse" than the TIE dial. Any TIE dial.

I think the B-Wing has an excellent dial for what it was designed to do, and that a lot of the furor over it comes from attempting to fly the ship in a way it is not intended to be flown - unless you're pushing it to within an inch of its life to pull out something unexpected.

IMO, and for once, this is something that is a true opinion unsupported by even fuzzy math, the reason you don't see more interceptors in the top 4/16/32 has nothing to do with stress, PTL, # of agility, or even cost. An interceptor has a 5% chance to roll 0 evades even if they have a focus (okay, I guess a bit of math).

Over 3 games, if an interceptor is attacked an average of 3 times in a game, he has a 27% of wiffing on his defensive roll. This still isn't that big of a deal. Which is why in single games, and small tourneys, interceptors are still used, and deadly at that. Especially since they can action stack.

However, once you start getting to worlds and nationals and vassal, and even regionals, you're no longer playing 3 games. You're now playing 6+ games. Now you have a 60% chance of whiffing. And really all it takes is one bad roll and 1/3 of your points are knocked out. Since the more games you play, the more likely you will experience that bad roll, players with interceptors will find themselves quickly without an interceptor at some point throughout the event. And against equally skilled players, that might as well be game set.

I know when I see interceptors set up across from me, I know that B wing I have is going to die. Real fast. And there's not too much I can do about that. Nerfing them in a single game situation makes sense to me because they truly are deadly creatures. But due to their frail state, they don't do well in large tourneys. But as others have said - not everything needs to be balanced around 100 point Worlds competition.

Okay, so maybe there was a fair amount of math, but it was just used as a reference for my non-math based hypothesis.

Neither does intentionally misreading and misrepresenting my argument.

I'm doing no such thing.

You started off talking about Homing missiles and how they can one shot a Interceptor, then said...

Compared to a 2-point upgrade that does it every turn for the entire game.

Which prompted the question I asked, because it seems pretty clear you are equating the two things.

It can leave a PtL Interceptor with no tokens on the next turn, every turn. At which point it is very likely dead.

Or am I intentionally misreading this statement too?

But I had thought you were better than that sort of blatantly dishonest intentional misreading.

I thought you were better then such massive hyperbole to make a point, so I called you on it. But I also said a number of times I agree with you in general that the Interceptor does function best with PtL, and the new stuff coming out does make PtL harder to use.

But apparently you'd rather resort to even more ad hominem attacks instead of owning up to your own statements.

Horton with R2/Push the Limit/Protorp/Protorp

Rookie

Rookie

Rookie

=100pts

Horton with R2/Push the Limit/Protorp/Protorp

Rookie

Rookie

Rookie

=100pts

Completely off topic, <3 your signature.

Horton with R2/Push the Limit/Protorp/Protorp

Rookie

Rookie

Rookie

=100pts

That's not a legal list, since Horton doesn't have an EPT.

Ok, but aside from it being an illegal list and completely off topic, I think he raises some really interesting points.

Horton with R2/Push the Limit/Protorp/Protorp

Rookie

Rookie

Rookie

=100pts

That's not a legal list, since Horton doesn't have an EPT.

He meant the new R2D6 droid.

And I just realized that I was calling out the wrong droid earlier... I meant R3-D2 since that's the dude that gives out the stress. My mistake... All of this new info in such a short period of time, it's hard to keep all the names and abilities straight.

I have to ask... how exactly does R3-A2 cause an Interceptor to lose all it's actions every turn?

If you don't have a stress currently, and it gives you one. You can preform a green maneuver to remove that stress, then use PtL. If at that point the ship with R3 can target you again, yes you get a 2nd stress token.

But the worse case here isn't every turn, it's 2 turns out of 3, and that's assuming that the ship with R3 can get the interceptor in question in it's arc every turn. Between Barrel Role and Boost, that's not exactly a given.

So no, R3-A2 does not in fact make PtL pointless, it makes it less useful yes. But it can only give out 1 stress per turn, and it can only be on one ship, which would I assume be the first target you're going to take out.

I meant R3-D2 since that's the dude that gives out the stress.

It's R3-A2...

I meant R3-D2 since that's the dude that gives out the stress.

It's R3-A2...

Apparently I should just give up and have a few beers.

Neither does intentionally misreading and misrepresenting my argument.

I'm doing no such thing.

You started off talking about Homing missiles and how they can one shot a Interceptor, then said...

Compared to a 2-point upgrade that does it every turn for the entire game.

Which prompted the question I asked, because it seems pretty clear you are equating the two things.

It can leave a PtL Interceptor with no tokens on the next turn, every turn. At which point it is very likely dead.

Or am I intentionally misreading this statement too?

But I had thought you were better than that sort of blatantly dishonest intentional misreading.

I thought you were better then such massive hyperbole to make a point, so I called you on it. But I also said a number of times I agree with you in general that the Interceptor does function best with PtL, and the new stuff coming out does make PtL harder to use.

But apparently you'd rather resort to even more ad hominem attacks instead of owning up to your own statements.

Okay, deep breath and a step back because this is getting dumb.

A double-stressed Interceptor is almost certainly dead next turn. It's going to get focused, and it's going to die. I'd suggest that the chances of a token-less Interceptor dying in a turn is higher than the 30% chance it'll get one-shotted by a Homing Missile, but that's obviously situation.

That's not the same as being one-shotted, but it's still a very dead ship, and a very expensive one for an Imperial list. At a minimum, it dies as easily as an Academy but costs 50% more. At worst, Fel dies just as easily as an Academy but costs almost 3x more.

That's the statement I was trying to make. If you want to continue bashing my poor framing, fine, have at it. But you're going after a hyperbolic statement that you invented and pasted over my argument, not anything I'm actually saying.

If you want to continue bashing my poor framing, fine, have at it.

I had no intention of bashing you. Just pointing out that you were heading off into the realms of Hyperbole, which is not at all like you.

Then you started accusing me of being dishonest, just like you accused Khyros of being.

I was simply trying to point out how some of your statements were not really doing your argument any favors. And once again, I said a number of times that I agreed with your over all point.

A double stressed Interceptor is in serious trouble, no doubt. But there are things you can do to avoid it being blown up.

Like say a Green 2 turn, or a green 3 or 4 straight, either of those may get the interceptor out of the line of fire. If not the white 5 straight should.

Point is, that you seem to have simply written off the Interceptor as being completely worthless, which I and others simply don't agree with.

I have to ask... how exactly does R3-A2 cause an Interceptor to lose all it's actions every turn?

If you don't have a stress currently, and it gives you one. You can preform a green maneuver to remove that stress, then use PtL. If at that point the ship with R3 can target you again, yes you get a 2nd stress token.

But the worse case here isn't every turn, it's 2 turns out of 3, and that's assuming that the ship with R3 can get the interceptor in question in it's arc every turn. Between Barrel Role and Boost, that's not exactly a given.

So no, R3-A2 does not in fact make PtL pointless, it makes it less useful yes. But it can only give out 1 stress per turn, and it can only be on one ship, which would I assume be the first target you're going to take out.

If you use PtL in a round where it can fire at you, you're action-locked for the next turn. That will continue until you manage to get out of the arc.

And that's assuming you don't have the obvious (and cheap) Flechette Torpedo combo'ed with it, which will guarantee 1-2 turns depending on whether you used PtL. That one's obviously not repeatable, but it's terrifying for a very expensive Interceptor like Fel or Turr.

It really wasn't where I was going, but it was worth looking at...

Homing Missile+Focus vs. Interceptor+Focus: 30% chance to one-shot, including critical chances.

Range 1 X-wing shot+Focus vs. Interceptor with no tokens: 32% chance to one shot, NOT factoring crits (crits added about +5% to Khyros' other case, should be the same here so say 37%)

If we figure the double token of the Homing Missile attack is close to needing SOMEONE in your squad close to the squint to take the shot... It actually does enable a higher chance to one-shot than the Homing Missile, and it's not one use.

So it really wasn't what I was intending to say, but I'm not sure it's all that hyperbolic.

If you use PtL in a round where it can fire at you, you're action-locked for the next turn.

Yes, but you can use the interceptors speed and maneuverability to help get out of the arc. If a interceptor really wants to get away a X-Wing is going to have trouble stopping it, even if the int can't use boost or barrel roll.

But you still have R3-A2 on a single X-Wing, so while he's chasing down that Interceptor, everything else free to focus on it. X-Wings are good but they won't last long with that big of a bullseye painted on it.

We got off on a tangent and I take responsibility for that... But to get back on track.

I agree that Interceptors with PtL did not need another counter to them, but clearly we're getting stuff that will make them harder to use. But that doesn't mean we should throw in the towel and give up on them either.

That one's obviously not repeatable, but it's terrifying for a very expensive Interceptor like Fel or Turr.

No argument here.

It really wasn't where I was going, but it was worth looking at...

Homing Missile+Focus vs. Interceptor+Focus: 30% chance to one-shot, including critical chances.

Range 1 X-wing shot+Focus vs. Interceptor with no tokens: 32% chance to one shot, NOT factoring crits (crits added about +5% to Khyros' other case, should be the same here so say 37%)

If we figure the double token of the Homing Missile attack is close to needing SOMEONE in your squad close to the squint to take the shot... It actually does enable a higher chance to one-shot than the Homing Missile, and it's not one use.

So it really wasn't what I was intending to say, but I'm not sure it's all that hyperbolic.

But in the case of the stress, it's over 2 turns. In the case of the Homing, it's over 1 turn. So now on the second turn, that A wing, or Falcon could shoot at something else.

As for the stress, the X wing shoots at it, gains a stress himself, and ends up with the PTL 'ceptor at 2 stress. But he still has tokens. So now the next turn, the 'ceptor can maneuver pretty much wherever, though we can say green to clear one of the stresses, and that means either 2 speed turn/bank or straight. If we go on the assumption that the 'ceptor is a higher PS, then even a 2 straight will pretty much move it out of R1 of the X wing... if the X wing maneuvered half a base behind the interceptor, then it would be R1, but most likely it'll either be R1 w/o actions or R2-3. Yes, there are scenarios where the X could be offset to the right, but in that case, the X has to be worried about you turning left and him not getting a shot at all... So still, he should be at R2.

A Focused R2 attack X wing vs. Interceptor is only 1.22 average damage. And it only has a 10% chance to one shot. It is not a dead Interceptor from 1 on 1 attacks. Even if we say that the interceptor was doing a head on attack... for whatever reason... A R1 attack comes out to 1.91 damage. So it's far from auto dead. Especially if you're protecting your fragile ship with a hull and/or shield upgrade.

If we go on the assumption that the 'ceptor is a higher PS, then even a 2 straight will pretty much move it out of R1 of the X wing... if the X wing maneuvered half a base behind the interceptor, then it would be R1, but most likely it'll either be R1 w/o actions or R2-3. Yes, there are scenarios where the X could be offset to the right, but in that case, the X has to be worried about you turning left and him not getting a shot at all... So still, he should be at R2.

...

Especially if you're protecting your fragile ship with a hull and/or shield upgrade.

The problem with this equation is that you're extending your homing missile concept and only assuming a single ship. The Interceptor doesn't have to stay at R2 from the R3-A2 ship - it has to stay away from EVERYTHING. Once it's stressed, that opportunity presents itself to any Rebel ship in the squadron. R3-A2 not requiring hits to do its thing means that it will function exceptionally well hanging back to cover the maximum possible area, which would mean other ships being closer is almost guaranteed.

Hull and Shield Upgrades can certainly toughen up an Interceptor, but they're also expensive... 28 points for a baseline Interceptor like that (before PtL) means that you're at a very small squad size. Is a PS4 Interceptor at 1 Shield/4 Hull valued within one point of Wedge? Would Fel be worth it at 40 points? I have a hard time seeing it.

The Interceptor doesn't have to stay at R2 from the R3-A2 ship - it has to stay away from EVERYTHING.

You're right, but at the same time, you also have to consider that the ship with the R3 unit will be a huge target, so to keep it effective you have to protect it just like the interceptor with 2 stress needs to be protected.

Horton with R2/Push the Limit/Protorp/Protorp

Rookie

Rookie

Rookie

=100pts

Old =P

Horton with PtL and a pair of proton torps might be the most frightening missile carrier now...

I'd just like to take this time to point out that this squad will be possible:

Horton Salm + Proton Torpedo + Proton Torpedo + R2-D6 + Push the Limit (37)

Rookie Pilot (21)

Rookie Pilot (21)

Rookie Pilot (21)

TOTAL: 100

Well and perhaps part of my point is "what makes a dial 'good' or 'bad?'" That's such an incredibly subjective term to begin with, even if you feel that, say, a HWK dial is inherently 'worse' than an X-Wing dial, or the Lambda dial is inherently "worse" than the TIE dial. Any TIE dial.

I think the B-Wing has an excellent dial for what it was designed to do, and that a lot of the furor over it comes from attempting to fly the ship in a way it is not intended to be flown - unless you're pushing it to within an inch of its life to pull out something unexpected.

I'd call what you're talking about an "overall well-designed ship."

In the context of this discussion, in today's meta a ship's dial is useful and important. In a meta where stress is more prevalent having more/less green, white,and red makes the dial a larger factor than it currently is. Right now, a player is the one limiting his own options more often than not and deciding to stress or not. In the future that won't be quite the case.

I appreciate the discussion, btw, and am just continuing it because of that, and not because I think a point is being missed.

I can appreciate an intelligent discussion, as opposed to random dial-bashing being tossed in offhandedly somehow in a discussion about PTL vs Stress.

I don't know, I guess with that ship, I tend to look at the dial a little differently. Oddly enough I think it's the red moves, as you implied, which make it the target of a lot of grief. If you took those off the dial entirely (minus the 2k, of course) I think it actually gets a lot less vitriol.

Look at just those for a second; green 1 straight and banks, green 2 straight, white banks and turn, white 3 straight, and it's a slow but not bad dial. I tend to think of them as almost being bonus moves that come with a bit of a cost, since so many people avoid using them entirely.

Which on a side note, I've always found a bit odd. Nobody (ignoring again the added stress options for a moment) thinks twice about stressing on a k-turn, but people get really weirdly squeamish about stressing on any other dial move. I tend to look at them the exact same way I look at a k-turn; as an optional, potentially very powerful, but definitely situational move. Unless you're Ibtisam, in which case they're yummy.

I guess a counter-question would be: the B-wing has a fair amount of red on its dial, true, but does it have a lot less green than most comparable ships?

The X-wing only has 3 - the same 3. Falcon? Same 3 greens. HWK? Same 3 greens.

The TIE only has 3 green moves - they're just faster ones. Firespray? Those same earlier 3 greens. The TIE Bomber, oddly enough has 4, clearing stress at higher speeds. Lambda? Those same ever-present 3 greens.

So ignoring the interceptor type ships for a moment, only one other fighter in the game has more greens on the dial than the B-Wing - and it's, weirdly, the TIE Bomber. Which means that aside from the fast ships and the Bomber ( ) no other ship in the game clears stress any better or worse than the B-Wing does. And that, to me, is an important measure of a dial, as well, probably more so than how many ways it has to generate stress, since those tend to be so rarely used anyway.

The X-wing only has 3 - the same 3. Falcon? Same 3 greens. HWK? Same 3 greens.

The TIE only has 3 green moves - they're just faster ones. Firespray? Those same earlier 3 greens. The TIE Bomber, oddly enough has 4, clearing stress at higher speeds. Lambda? Those same ever-present 3 greens.

Minor correction here - the TIE Fighter has 4 greens - 2 and 3 ahead, and the Speed 2 banks.

But generally, this was the point I was trying to make. A dial isn't inherently better simply because it has more options, or even more green. A lot of it depends on how often you want/need those maneuvers.

IMHO, the 3 speed maneuvers the B is lacking (or has as red) simply aren't all that commonly useful once you're engaged. The Speed 1 and 2 maneuvers are far more useful, and in that realm the B is just as good as the X.

To inject another example, the dials of the YT and Firespray are identical with one exception - the YT has a 1 turn but lacks a 3 turn, and the Firespray is the opposite. That difference is a big part of what makes the YT so much easier to fly than the Firespray - that 1 turn is tight, snappy, and predictable. The 3 turn, no so much. I hold that as a broadly applicable standard.