It is 100% the Falcon.

I don't disagree, but look at the top 16 for the last few big tournaments, and how many Falcons do you see?Now maybe it's that the Interceptors all get weeded out early because there's more Falcons in the bottom half of the rankings or something.The Falcon or a Y-Wing with a Ion Turret is deadly to an Interceptor, but I wonder how much of the lack of them in Tourney's is because people don't bring them, because they don't think they can win with them. That and the swarm is simply a safer bet as a all comers list.

Yea, personally I'd love to run at least two interceptors in any imperial list I make. I think they are fantastic and can not wait to play them against any list my friends can come up. I ain't skerred - only way to get good with a ship is to practice flying it anyways.

All that needs to happen, is the feeling that Falcons will be played.

True, but I think that simply reinforces my opinion that the biggest reason you don't see more interceptors in tournaments, is because people don't think they can win. Even though you might never face the hard counter to them. The Tournament format more or less requires a 'all comers' type list, which in this game on the Imperial side means things like the Tie Swarm.

It's honestly not that the Interceptor is such a bad ship, or can't win. I've won a number of games with a 4 Interceptor list. But it's just more susceptible to a Rock, so it doesn't work well in the Tournament format.

But I'm not so sure that being viable in that format should be the only or even main thing we base viability on.

It is 100% the Falcon.

I don't disagree, but look at the top 16 for the last few big tournaments, and how many Falcons do you see?

The Falcon can intimidate whether it's there or not, but even more importantly, it doesn't have to WIN in order to completely hose Interceptors.

Just because the Falcon is below swarms or XXBB lists doesn't mean it's not still devastating to Interceptors.

The Tournament format more or less requires a 'all comers' type list, which in this game on the Imperial side means things like the Tie Swarm.

It's honestly not that the Interceptor is such a bad ship, or can't win. I've won a number of games with a 4 Interceptor list. But it's just more susceptible to a Rock, so it doesn't work well in the Tournament format.

Do you normally build your lists with knowledge of what your opponent is running?

In pretty much every game, that sort of scouting or counter-building is considered extremely poor form. So pretty much EVERY list we build, for any game or style, is an all-comers list.

It may be a little more forgiving in that area since you're likely to just play one game with one opponent, rather than 4-7, but the vulnerability is there no matter what. Honestly, if anything it's a little riskier - we almost never play mirror matches in casual play, which means the chances of your Interceptors ending up against a Falcon is even higher.

So pretty much EVERY list we build, for any game or style, is an all-comers list.

Sure, and the Interceptor is as I said, more susceptible to the Rock to it's Scissors then other lists are.

But it does seem like some people are ready to write off the Interceptor without even trying to come up with a different method of making them work. Most of us wrote off the Shuttle when it came out, but with some work it's not become a bit of a staple of Imperial list building.

Sure, and the Interceptor is as I said, more susceptible to the Rock to it's Scissors then other lists are.

But it does seem like some people are ready to write off the Interceptor without even trying to come up with a different method of making them work. Most of us wrote off the Shuttle when it came out, but with some work it's not become a bit of a staple of Imperial list building.

A few people manage to make shuttles work, but I wouldn't go anywhere near calling it a "staple". Out of 22 players at the last store championship I played in, there were 2 shuttles. Want to guess how many B-wings?

The problem is that we just added another rock to the meta. It's not Rock Paper Scissors any more - it's Rock Rock ('till you drop) Rock Paper Scissors. There's a certain point where picking scissors is just dumb.

I think a couple bombers with APTs and flechettes plus a squint or two could be a fantastic all-comers list that would love to see a falcon on the opposite side of the table. I actually think ion pulse would be awesome to include as well and would further compound issues for the "a large tanky Death Star" type ship. Once the falcon is locked up and dead from those APTs the squints can mop up the rest and should do swimmingly against the 2 B or 2 X. Especially if it's my boy, Turr Phennir.

Sigh. Are we still talking 'Woe is me Interceptors'?

I think a lot of existing B-Wing lists will fold to a couple of interceptors sprinkled into an otherwise ubiquitous Imperial list. People are just so afraid to try them and/or bad with them that it causes the mob mentality to be that they can't win. I think that's a fail.

I think the Interceptor has been held down for a while due to the popularity of the Falcon/Ion Turrets. However, at least in my experience, we are starting to see fewer Falcon lists for sure, and the other turret weapons only make small appearances here/there.Because of this, more daring players are starting to sprinkle Ints back into their lists, since they make a great counter to a lot of the slower/higher HP ships.

I do not think a couple of Unique X-Wings or a single droid will do nearly as much damage to the Int's viability as the Falcon did, especially since a lot of players will struggle to even play these new guys regularly. I think what is going to happen after Wave 4 is there will be much less 'top lists' and a lot of varied lists based on play style and experience. There will simply be so many possible combinations that it will be difficult to say any one list is the most powerful. Even now, there a lot of really great variations on the XXBB list that everyone is so afraid of.

First, if you take Advanced Sensors away from the B-wing, it's still a pretty impressive ship - it hits hard, it's pretty durable, and while you may not be able to make it dance like you could with Advanced Sensors it still has a pretty good dial.

If you remove the red maneuvers from all three dials, though--that is, if all three ships begin the Activation phase with at least one stress token--the B-wing and HWK now have exactly the same dial, and the only difference between that dial and the Lambda is that the shuttle is missing the turn-2. A B-wing with stress becomes ponderous and predictable.

Here's the question I'm very curious about for all the "It's fine" crowd: You rarely see Interceptors in competitive play, primarily because turret ships like the Falcon are such an effective counter. With the meta introduction of another very, VERY effective counter to Interceptors which will be broadly useful otherwise, do you really expect it not to impact their use??

R3-A2 is a droid. He can appear on just two ships, and because he's unique, he can appear exactly once in a single list. Alone, he doesn't turn PTL off entirely--he forces you to think carefully about when you use PTL, and perhaps to focus more on maneuverability than you ordinarily would. And using him also causes stress to the ship to which he's attached, which is not a trivial cost considering the set of green maneuvers available to X-wings or (particularly) Y-wings. Likewise, Flechette Torpedoes are a single-shot weapon. They're dangerous in large numbers, which will be interesting because most players don't currently run ordnance across multiple ships, and they're certainly dangerous when deployed together with R3-A2. But once they're gone, they're gone, and you can go back to merrily raining PTL down on your opponent's head.

But the rule is already that if you're flying Interceptors, you don't joust; the rule remains if you're flying Interceptors, you don't joust. If my Soontir makes a head-to-head pass against that Rookie + Flechette + R3-A2, there's about a 40% chance that he won't make it to the end of the second round--so don't make that head-to-head pass.

And let me ask you a question in return: why does R3-A2 represent a larger threat to Interceptors thanHoming Missiles, Gunner, Autoblaster, Ten Numb, Kath Scarlet, Rebel Captive, and the Darth Vader crew card combined?

If you remove the red maneuvers from all three dials, though--that is, if all three ships begin the Activation phase with at least one stress token--the B-wing and HWK now have exactly the same dial, and the only difference between that dial and the Lambda is that the shuttle is missing the turn-2. A B-wing with stress becomes ponderous and predictable.

I see it differently. I see a dial that below Speed 3 is nearly identical to the X-wing. Speed 3 moves rarely keep an opponent in front of you anyway.

And let me ask you a question in return: why does R3-A2 represent a larger threat to Interceptors thanHoming Missiles, Gunner, Autoblaster, Ten Numb, Kath Scarlet, Rebel Captive, and the Darth Vader crew card combined?

Well, let's compare:

Ten: A PtL Interceptor should have an evade token; Ten's ability is irrelevant

Rebel Captive: You can choose where the stress ends up, not your opponent

Darth Vader: Certainly nasty, but shouldn't get more than one hit off in a game (if you let him get 5, you deserve the loss). Probably the closest comparison in nastiness, but requires your opponent to self-kill a 25+ point ship to use him.

Kath: 41 points by the time you add Marksmanship. Even then, it's a long way from guaranteed

Autoblaster: Expensive. Only usable at Range 1, and you yourself have expounded at length on how useless it is.

Homing Missiles: Can't hit at Range 1, and even then is vulnerable to tokens.

All this compares to a 2-point droid that can drop on any X-wing, has no range limitations, lets you choose who to stress, can be used at will for the entire game, is perfectly reliable, and is also extremely useful against other targets. Compare to Ten: his ability rarely matters because low-agility ships aren't going to dodge it anyway. I've played Ten quite a bit, and an incompetent yakuza could still count the number of times his ability has mattered without running out of fingers. Same with Kath and the Autoblaster both - their abilities are consolation prizes.

The new stress-inflicting options take all the worst parts of that list, and paper over all the weaknesses. No hit required. Tokens are irrelevant. No range limitations. Broad use against many targets. What's not to like?

The B-Wing does not have a terrible dial. It is not very fast, true, but it is unparalleled as an in-close dogfighter. Particularly with advanced sensors, it can fly extremely unpredictably and be maddeningly hard to pin down. Calling it a terrible dial simply because it's a very focused one is very misleading.

I beginning to think people don't fly interceptors the way I do or that my opponents are much better pilots than I anticipated.

How do interceptors play well?

Use mobility to stay out of arcs or at least minimize # of shots you take in the engagement round, get at range 1 and load up on tokens, unload damage, and then get out of arcs again or use tokens for defense. Is that now how you fly interceptors?

Now if you can't 100% avoid arcs, impossible to do if your opponent focuses on your interceptor, you get shot at and that means you lose the mobility and the extra actions you paid for.

If your answer is "stay out of arcs", I ask you to try to do so vs. Turrets. ADD xwings that can kturn and still get all their actions. They don't have to hit you, they just have to shoot at you. 2 options that cost 3pts or less that do this and one xwing that strips your tokens to boot. EVERY rebel ship now has access to one of these hard counters.

If your answer is "stress effects interceptors less because of all their green" allow me to introduce an imperial ship that first hit always ignore shields. I mean, rebels all have extra right, so it doesn't actually hurt as much. Stress/ion especially together turns off the 9-15pts you paid for an elite interceptor. Stress/ion does not do that to an x or y, they still have the hp/turret/or R2 unit...b's have almost 3 times the health. You lose a lot less of your "investment" to that 2-3pt upgrade... difference between ties and interceptors are much bigger (in cost and ability) than the cost/stat change on rebel ships due to how they are built.

These things are not "replacing" the threat of turrets (and the sudden focus on "The Falcon" keeping the interceptor down) they are now ADDING an extra threat that the interceptor can not get around. As someone posted earlier... you're adding another Rock to RPS, not replacing the rock.

If you think the interceptor isn't getting impacted by these new developments you need to play interceptors more... or at least against them more. Now you'll probably play with and against them EVEN LESS.

Probably worth a look for anyone debating Interceptors and how to fly them.

Some interesting thoughts in there from an extremely experienced squint pilot.

http://teamcovenant.com/theorist/2014/03/07/how-to-fly-the-ptl-interceptor/

And let me ask you a question in return: why does R3-A2 represent a larger threat to Interceptors thanHoming Missiles, Gunner, Autoblaster, Ten Numb, Kath Scarlet, Rebel Captive, and the Darth Vader crew card combined?

Because everyone still has their panties in a bunch over the fact that the attack doesn't have to hit... And apparently that's more scary because it's guaranteed stress. The fact that Homing missiles (w/ focus) has a 34% chance of one shotting Fel w/ 2 focus tokens and an evade isn't scary apparently. Even though the cheapest platform for that would be a 17pt prototype... Meanwhile R2-D6 can go on a 21 point rookie!!! That's totally OP'd. The fact that you can have multiple homing missiles isn't unfair at all, because they only have a 34% to ONE SHOT the interceptor... the R2-D6 gives you a 100% to stress Fel!!!

As for gunner, it's because you'd be an idiot to not token stack with an interceptor, obviously... And so you have two tokens, so the gunner isn't scary because you should just take the 1 hit instead of spending the evade token.

Autoblaster isn't scary because interceptors will always use boost/BR to get out of arc, no ship that can take an autoblaster can keep in R1 of an interceptor... people would just be stupid to do anything besides boost/br to get out of arc with their interceptors.

Ten Numb is a lollercoaster... thanks for spotting me 34+ points. He'll never be able to touch me because I can just outfly that sluggish B wing.

Kath is scary. But seriously, if they want to pay 38+ points for a ship, it should be scary. The R2-D6 can go on a 18 point Gold squadron!!! That's like half the cost of Kath!

Rebel captive isn't scary because that can only affect one ship, and I choose which one. R2-D6 can target whichever ship he wants and just give that person a stress with no recourse.

Darth Vader... ha! See above notes about Ten. Obviously that shuttle will never get a shot off on an interceptor. And the firespray has just a slightly higher chance of that happening.

But that R2-K6 is scary!!! you can put it on a cheap platform. And you don't even have to hit. And interceptors can't do jack about it. And obviously once the enemy is stressed, I'm not going to do my 2 speed turn to line up a nice R1 kill shot against that stressed Y wing that had to go forward.

</sarcasm> (in case it wasn't clear in my typed tone)

I beginning to think people don't fly interceptors the way I do or that my opponents are much better pilots than I anticipated.

How do interceptors play well?

Use mobility to stay out of arcs or at least minimize # of shots you take in the engagement round, get at range 1 and load up on tokens, unload damage, and then get out of arcs again or use tokens for defense. Is that now how you fly interceptors?

Now if you can't 100% avoid arcs, impossible to do if your opponent focuses on your interceptor, you get shot at and that means you lose the mobility and the extra actions you paid for.

If your answer is "stay out of arcs", I ask you to try to do so vs. Turrets. ADD xwings that can kturn and still get all their actions. They don't have to hit you, they just have to shoot at you. 2 options that cost 3pts or less that do this and one xwing that strips your tokens to boot.

If your answer is "stress effects interceptors less because of all their green" allow me to introduce an imperial ship that first hit always ignore shields. I mean, you've got extra right, so it doesn't actually hurt as much. Stress/ion especially together turns off the 9-15pts you paid for an elite interceptor. Stress/ion does not do that to an x or y, they still have the hp/turret/or R2 unit...b's have almost 3 times the health.

These things are not "replacing" the threat of turrets (and the sudden focus on "The Falcon" keeping the interceptor down) they are now ADDING an extra threat that the interceptor can not get around. As someone posted earlier... you're adding another Rock to RPS, not replacing the rock.

If you think the interceptor isn't getting impacted by these new developments you need to play interceptors more... or at least against them more. Now you'll probably play with and against them EVEN LESS.

I dont think anyone is arguing that turrets are bad for interceptors. What I,and imo several others, are arguing is that the new stuff will see less play than you expect and have less impact than you are claiming.

The droid is unique. if its a problem, then kill it. on an X thats 5hp in most cases. On a Y its much less of an issue since you should be able to get away from it.

The Xs will have to be shoe-horned into lists and none of them are as bad as many people are making them out to be. Sure Porkins CAN K-turn every turn. Until he kills himself. Sure, Hobbie CAN get around stress, but not every turn.

And I am asserting that turrets are being seen less often now, and I expect that it will slow even further the more ships they put out.

When you add all of that up, it boggles my mind that INT pilots are upset.

Because everyone still has their panties in a bunch over the fact that the attack doesn't have to hit... And apparently that's more scary because it's guaranteed stress. The fact that Homing missiles (w/ focus) has a 34% chance of one shotting Fel w/ 2 focus tokens and an evade isn't scary apparently. Even though the cheapest platform for that would be a 17pt prototype... Meanwhile R2-D6 can go on a 21 point rookie!!! That's totally OP'd. The fact that you can have multiple homing missiles isn't unfair at all, because they only have a 34% to ONE SHOT the interceptor... the R2-D6 gives you a 100% to stress Fel!!!

Uhm... What?

According to http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1537547/chrisdk?size=original (helpful) the chances of 3+ hits in a 4 attack vs. 3 defense, with TL+F on the attacking side and E+F on the defending side is 4.1%.

If you're going to break out the sarcasm and snark, you should probably try to do it in a way which isn't so provably ludicrous and completely demolishes any sense of your credibility.

The B-Wing does not have a terrible dial. It is not very fast, true, but it is unparalleled as an in-close dogfighter. Particularly with advanced sensors, it can fly extremely unpredictably and be maddeningly hard to pin down. Calling it a terrible dial simply because it's a very focused one is very misleading.

As I said--people think the B-wing's dial is good because we tend to think about the way it flies when it has Advanced Sensors attached. With Advanced Sensors (and without stress), it flies like the Falcon would if the Falcon were mounted on a smaller base and could barrel roll. But that doesn't mean it has a good dial--it means that Advanced Sensors is a fantastic upgrade.

Oh, Advanced Sensors absolutely change a lot about the B-wing's dial. If it starts its turn with stress, though, it doesn't get that early action, and the best parts of the dial (particularly that important turn-1) are no longer accessible. The bits of the dial that are left leave it unable to turn quickly and unable to run.

As I said--people think the B-wing's dial is good because we tend to think about the way it flies when it has Advanced Sensors attached. With Advanced Sensors (and without stress), it flies like the Falcon would if the Falcon were mounted on a smaller base and could barrel roll. But that doesn't mean it has a good dial--it means that Advanced Sensors is a fantastic upgrade.

So you think the X-wing has a horrible dial too, then? I'm confused.

Because again, the only thing the B lacks compared to the X is the Speed 3 bank/turn. Personally, I rarely find that to be terribly relevant in a dogfight. Especially since we're discussing move options when stressed, trying to run with the X-wing likely ends with you still stressed and an opponent on your tail taking shots at will.

I don't see a lot of difference between the B and the X, honestly.

I have flown B-Wings almost constantly since they came out, with and without Advanced Sensors. While there is no question that they seem to have been custom made for the B-Wing and are a great tool, the B-Wings dial still gets an unfair knock on its own merits. It's not a bad dial, if you know how to fly them. If you fly them like an X-Wing, or god forbid an A-Wing or Interceptor or something, yeah, you're going to be in for a bad day. If you fly them to maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses, however, they are a scary ship that can outposition most anything in close quarters. People struggle to get there, and write the dial off as bad.

You can throw a fish into a tree - that doesn't make him a lousy bird or squirrel. It just means that he needs to bait you into coming in the water with him to be effective.

According to http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1537547/chrisdk?size=original (helpful) the chances of 3+ hits in a 4 attack vs. 3 defense, with TL+F on the attacking side and E+F on the defending side is 4.1%.

According to http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1537547/chrisdk?size=original (helpful) the chances of 3+ hits in a 4 attack vs. 3 defense, with TL+F on the attacking side and E+F on the defending side is 4.1%.

You're looking at the wrong column--you can't spend an evade token against Homing Missiles, so it's 25.5% to one-shot an Interceptor with a TL+Focus stack Homing Missile.

Fair enough - forgot the evade limitation. Still well lower than advertised.

Because everyone still has their panties in a bunch over the fact that the attack doesn't have to hit... And apparently that's more scary because it's guaranteed stress. The fact that Homing missiles (w/ focus) has a 34% chance of one shotting Fel w/ 2 focus tokens and an evade isn't scary apparently. Even though the cheapest platform for that would be a 17pt prototype... Meanwhile R2-D6 can go on a 21 point rookie!!! That's totally OP'd. The fact that you can have multiple homing missiles isn't unfair at all, because they only have a 34% to ONE SHOT the interceptor... the R2-D6 gives you a 100% to stress Fel!!!

Uhm... What?

According to http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1537547/chrisdk?size=original (helpful) the chances of 3+ hits in a 4 attack vs. 3 defense, with TL+F on the attacking side and E+F on the defending side is 4.1%.

If you're going to break out the sarcasm and snark, you should probably try to do it in a way which isn't so provably ludicrous and completely demolishes any sense of your credibility.

Chance of rolling 4 hits = 77%

Chance of rolling 3 hits = 21%

Chance of rolling 1 evade = 26%

Chance of rolling 0 evade = 5%

4H * (1E + 0E) + 3H * (0E) = 25%

You're right in that I must have missed typed something in the calculator. Thanks for catching that. It doesn't change my argument though.

I would argue that, flown right, the B-Wing has a better dial than an X-Wing. Yes, several of its best moves - the 1 turn (which the X-Wing doesn't even have), the 3 bank, and the 4 forward are red. That just means their use is very situational. It also means that many players ignore them entirely, other players then forget they're there, and when you DO bust one out at the right time, it often throws people off their game.

The B-Wing can also make up a half base length of speed by rolling, though, which means when closing it can 3-forward, roll forward, and wind up half a base shy of a 4 forward. Not far. So they approach a little slower, and the can't do big fast banks without stress. That's about the extend of the limitations of their dial. The 2k is terrifying in a furball, the barrel roll gives them an incredible amount of versatility in deciding where it's going to land - arc dodging and/or setting up unanswerable shots.

If you fly them the same way you'd fly another fighter in the game, yes - you will think they're terrible. They're just a tricky, finicky beast that takes a little practice to master. Once you get your head around the dial, those ships can dance. And yes, AdvS makes them even better at it. But just about everything goes well with them, and they don't need AdvS to be scary ships against someone who knows how to fly them.

According to http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1537547/chrisdk?size=original (helpful) the chances of 3+ hits in a 4 attack vs. 3 defense, with TL+F on the attacking side and E+F on the defending side is 4.1%.

You're looking at the wrong column--you can't spend an evade token against Homing Missiles, so it's 25.5% to one-shot an Interceptor with a TL+Focus stack Homing Missile.

Fair enough - forgot the evade limitation. Still well lower than advertised.

Oh the irony.

I would argue that, flown right, the B-Wing has a better dial than an X-Wing. Yes, several of its best moves - the 1 turn (which the X-Wing doesn't even have), the 3 bank, and the 4 forward are red. That just means their use is very situational. It also means that many players ignore them entirely, other players then forget they're there, and when you DO bust one out at the right time, it often throws people off their game.

The B-Wing can also make up a half base length of speed by rolling, though, which means when closing it can 3-forward, roll forward, and wind up half a base shy of a 4 forward. Not far. So they approach a little slower, and the can't do big fast banks without stress. That's about the extend of the limitations of their dial. The 2k is terrifying in a furball, the barrel roll gives them an incredible amount of versatility in deciding where it's going to land - arc dodging and/or setting up unanswerable shots.

If you fly them the same way you'd fly another fighter in the game, yes - you will think they're terrible. They're just a tricky, finicky beast that takes a little practice to master. Once you get your head around the dial, those ships can dance. And yes, AdvS makes them even better at it. But just about everything goes well with them, and they don't need AdvS to be scary ships against someone who knows how to fly them.

CW, you have repeatedly ignored what he said.

WITH A STRESS TOKEN, the b-wing dial is one of the worst. Not IN GENERAL.

His argument as I understand it is that the new Droid hurts the dreaded B-Wing more than the much maligned INT. Which is relevant because everyone is boohooing the INT