Hola everyone! First, I would like to apologize in advance if this has been answered already. I did do a search, and couldn't find anything on Supreme Tirade.

Ok, so a player of mine has taken Supreme Scathing Tirade now, and has asked if he would be able to use his Action to perform (use) Scathing Tirade, then for his Maneuver, perform (use) Scathing Tirade, suffering the strain, all in the same round.

My initial thought was, yeah, since you are suffering strain, you could do that, but now I am thinking maybe not. I almost feel as this is not the intent of the Talent, and that we my be abusing it if used in this way. Now granted, he is taking 1 Strain to do this, but at 14 Strain Tresh. he can do this a lot.

Would he then be able to use his second Maneuver to use this again at -3 Strain?

So for -4 Strain could he use the Scathing Tirade 3 times in a round?

As far as I can tell, as per RAW, he can do this. So I was just curious as to your thoughts on this.

Also, what are your thoughts on this being used on a droid? I think that trying to use this on a Droideka, battle droids, or any military/security type, this would be pretty ineffective, but on a protocol droid, I could see it working. Try yelling at your refrigerator to cool your beer (or other beverage of choice) faster.

Thanks.

Scathing Tirade on Droids...

RAW it doesn't limit it's usage to only once per round so technically he could use his action and 2 maneuvers to triple Scathing Tirade for net 4 Strain.

Just keep in mind to add modifiers to the checks and perhaps escalate the penalties the more he does it in a single encounter in such a short period of time (i.e. multiple times in a turn should get progressively harder). When was the last time you just stood there and paid full attention to someone going off on you? Personally I tune out pretty fast as do a lot of other people.

In a social situation the difficulty may not escalate as quickly, but it would depend on the relationship between the listener(s) and the one delivering the tirade. If the player rolled a Triumph on a Social check as a precursor to this then I'd let them unload full effect with no added difficulty. Otherwise I'd escalate difficulty per successive use in the encounter until specific turning points in the scene which could reset the difficulty.

In a combat situation, I would assign added difficulty and plenty of setback dice to begin with and just upgrade the difficulty per successive attempt. When blasters are firing, you only listen to the enemy taunting you to a minimal point. I'd reset the difficulty back down at turning points that put the outcome in the PCs' favor (i.e. more disheartening to get well timed jabs from a foe who is beating you than the people you are crushing).

That's a lot of nerfing on something that isn't all that powerful to begin with. Doing it multiple times in a turn is going to build up Strain on the guy using it pretty fast, possibly faster than on the target(s).

Keep in mind that highly civilized worlds would probably view Scathing Tirade as a breach of the peace or even assault. On less civilized worlds, it's a great way to start a gunfight if used on the wrong person.

Keep in mind the base difficulty is only 2. Someone who has gotten all the way to Supreme Scathing Tirade most likely has 3 proficiency dice (at least) that they are rolling against that. They will succeed against the base diff most every time.

I mainly advocate escalating the difficulty in the case of a player deciding to spam it. If a player is only using it here and there in the encounter then there's really no issue. However, since the OP was about spamming its use that was where I went with my take on adjudicating it.

Scathing Tirade is fairly easy to regulate. Using it in a firefight? Add at least one setback die due to the noise level (the target has to actually hear what you say). Rolling a lot of Threat, or even Despair? Suddenly everyone that've been affected goes full rage and target the user exclusively. Using it in social situations? Threat or Despair gets you a slap across the face and a challenge to a duel.

Scathing Tirade is nice, but it's not in any way overpowered. No need to nerf it. And remember, it only has short range, so anyone targetted by it can close to melee range in one manoeuvre.

Scathing Tirade is nice, but it's not in any way overpowered. No need to nerf it. And remember, it only has short range, so anyone targetted by it can close to melee range in one manoeuvre.

I completly agree. I built my Politico to only use Scathing Tirade, he has yet to pick up a gun. The problem is in how the dice roll out for me. I always get a bunch of successes and never enough advantages, so it never really does much.

As for ending up in melee range, my character started carrying a Gaffi stick. Or as we re-fluffed it, a cane/pimp-stick. The extra point of melee defense has been so wonderful.

Back to the question at hand, I too think the RAW is that you can do Supreme Scything Tirade a few times a round. The cost is the Strain the character will be building up. There is no quick way to get rid of it and rolling a Cool/Discipline check after the combat can only do so much. After a fight or two, the character will have to be careful how often he spends stain. Remember, Scything Tirade is a skill check, not a combat check. So those advantages can't be spent on recovering Strain.

Back to the question at hand, I too think the RAW is that you can do Supreme Scything Tirade a few times a round. The cost is the Strain the character will be building up. There is no quick way to get rid of it and rolling a Cool/Discipline check after the combat can only do so much. After a fight or two, the character will have to be careful how often he spends stain. Remember, Scything Tirade is a skill check, not a combat check. So those advantages can't be spent on recovering Strain.

Have you been using it heavily like that with your character? Do you run into a lot of high level Rivals (ones that track Strain separately)? What is your dice pool for your Scathing Tirade checks?

Just curious about the circumstances under which this is happening so I can get a better insight.

Also, the pimp cane gaffi stick made my afternoon... does he refer to himself as A Pimp Named Slickback?

RAW it doesn't limit it's usage to only once per round so technically he could use his action and 2 maneuvers to triple Scathing Tirade for net 4 Strain.

You can only do 2 maneuvers per turn, even if you give up an action to do so.

RAW it doesn't limit it's usage to only once per round so technically he could use his action and 2 maneuvers to triple Scathing Tirade for net 4 Strain.

You can only do 2 maneuvers per turn, even if you give up an action to do so.

The triple use proposed by the OP comes from 2 done as Maneuvers and one done as Action. Which is a fair amount of Strain but one good roll could wipe most of that.

RAW it doesn't limit it's usage to only once per round so technically he could use his action and 2 maneuvers to triple Scathing Tirade for net 4 Strain.

You can only do 2 maneuvers per turn, even if you give up an action to do so.

2 Maneuvers + 1 action = 3 Scathing Tirade in a turn.

@Liloki - I'm 5 skill, 3 stat for Scathing Tirade. Honestly, I don't feel like I do anything with it. The best effect is the black die I give the bad guys. I keep rolling 4 successes and maybe 1 or 2 advantages, so the damage I put out isn't much. Usually only a guy or two is within range so I'm only doing 1 or 2 damage. And yes, I've only used Scathing Tirade in combat. It's my go-to power every round. As far as Rivals, we haven't gone up against many, but when we do it's usually the black die I'm more worried about giving them instead of strain.

You can only do 2 maneuvers per turn, even if you give up an action to do so.

2 Maneuvers + 1 action = 3 Scathing Tirade in a turn.

*sigh* Page 200, bottom, bolded: "...a single character may not perform more than two maneuvers during his turn."

So you can either convert your action to a maneuver; or you can spend strain to take a second maneuver, but you can't then convert your action to a third maneuver.

@whafrog: To triple Scathing Tirade, you perform one instance of it as an ACTION. Then take Strain for an 2nd Maneuver as well as take the Strain that allows you to perform Scathing Tirade as MANEUVERS. That's how we're all getting the triple use case.

@whafrog: To triple Scathing Tirade, you perform one instance of it as an ACTION. Then take Strain for an 2nd Maneuver as well as take the Strain that allows you to perform Scathing Tirade as MANEUVERS. That's how we're all getting the triple use case.

This is correct. You can absolutely do this three times in a round.

@Liloki - I'm 5 skill, 3 stat for Scathing Tirade. Honestly, I don't feel like I do anything with it. The best effect is the black die I give the bad guys. I keep rolling 4 successes and maybe 1 or 2 advantages, so the damage I put out isn't much. Usually only a guy or two is within range so I'm only doing 1 or 2 damage. And yes, I've only used Scathing Tirade in combat. It's my go-to power every round. As far as Rivals, we haven't gone up against many, but when we do it's usually the black die I'm more worried about giving them instead of strain.

Thanks for the numbers. The players in my group are at the point where they utterly crush standard difficulty when using their primary skill clusters (the 3-4 skills they each focused on). So my take on things is based on seeing that. Our Politico just skipped Scathing Tirade and went all vibro-knife stab-happy so I'm only extrapolating based on their typical rolls versus Difficulty 2. Given your numbers though it is clear that Scathing Tirade spam doesn't need to get extra difficulty.

@whafrog: To triple Scathing Tirade, you perform one instance of it as an ACTION. Then take Strain for an 2nd Maneuver as well as take the Strain that allows you to perform Scathing Tirade as MANEUVERS. That's how we're all getting the triple use case.

The point of Supreme Scathing Tirade is to be able to perform "Scathing Tirade" as a maneuver, which makes it available twice. Using it again as an action seems like...cheating.

Is there a FAQ ruling on this? If not, I wouldn't allow it at my table, RAI seems pretty clear.

@whafrog: To triple Scathing Tirade, you perform one instance of it as an ACTION. Then take Strain for an 2nd Maneuver as well as take the Strain that allows you to perform Scathing Tirade as MANEUVERS. That's how we're all getting the triple use case.

The point of Supreme Scathing Tirade is to be able to perform "Scathing Tirade" as a maneuver, which makes it available twice. Using it again as an action seems like...cheating.

Is there a FAQ ruling on this? If not, I wouldn't allow it at my table, RAI seems pretty clear.

No FAQ ruling as far as I know, so while it does seem like cheating, it would be possible to use it multiple times in a turn, if the PC's willing to burn through a fair portion of their Strain Threshold to do so. Should a PC do this too often, they might find themselves in a bad way should they get pelted with a Stun attack by someone they annoyed with their constant tirades...

Or maybe even an Imperial Inquisitor that opts for the Vader method of shutting someone up

@Liloki - I'm 5 skill, 3 stat for Scathing Tirade. Honestly, I don't feel like I do anything with it. The best effect is the black die I give the bad guys. I keep rolling 4 successes and maybe 1 or 2 advantages, so the damage I put out isn't much. Usually only a guy or two is within range so I'm only doing 1 or 2 damage. And yes, I've only used Scathing Tirade in combat. It's my go-to power every round. As far as Rivals, we haven't gone up against many, but when we do it's usually the black die I'm more worried about giving them instead of strain.

Thanks for the numbers. The players in my group are at the point where they utterly crush standard difficulty when using their primary skill clusters (the 3-4 skills they each focused on). So my take on things is based on seeing that. Our Politico just skipped Scathing Tirade and went all vibro-knife stab-happy so I'm only extrapolating based on their typical rolls versus Difficulty 2. Given your numbers though it is clear that Scathing Tirade spam doesn't need to get extra difficulty.

Oh, I forgot to add that I'm also force sensitive and have the talent to throw a force die too. I never get light side pips, so I always forget about it.

The beauty of Scathing Tirade's design is what keeps it from being broken. Successes for extra targets, advantages for extra damage. Now, if I could convert successes into advantages then I could pour the damage into a single target. As it stands, my luck tends to roll me a ton more success than advantages. Now, if I was using a gun or knife, I'd be killing things left or right. But that's not the point of my character. It's fun being the loudmouth politician who runs through combat shouting at everyone while dodging blaster fire. Good times.

I agree,it feels like cheating. I wish there was a base rule that said you could only use a Talent once per turn. That would solve this. As it is, my character doesn't use Scathing Tirade more than once a turn. I prefer to spend my other actions on the Leadership ability in the same turn. Rounds things out quite nicely.

Ok, thanks for the thoughts and opinions on this. I am kind of concerned about a couple of posts on here though. First, I am not saying anything here to be mean, or disrespectful. I DO appreciate the comments everyone has made, but now I would like to counter point some of them. Some posters have said that I only shoot down all the things that people try to help me out on. That is not the case!!!! Nor is this an outburst.

@whafrog: To triple Scathing Tirade, you perform one instance of it as an ACTION. Then take Strain for an 2nd Maneuver as well as take the Strain that allows you to perform Scathing Tirade as MANEUVERS. That's how we're all getting the triple use case.

The point of Supreme Scathing Tirade is to be able to perform "Scathing Tirade" as a maneuver, which makes it available twice. Using it again as an action seems like...cheating.

Is there a FAQ ruling on this? If not, I wouldn't allow it at my table, RAI seems pretty clear.

OK, now that I have gotten that out of the way. Whafrog. I find you to be hilarious man. You argue that you can't use this as I had written it out. Then after proved you can, you say it feels like cheating. I don't see how using this game as Rules as Written is cheating. We do not know what the Rules as Intended was, so that should have no bearing. I just fail to see it. All players get this. It is not something that only one player can do.

1. Action (Tirade)

2. Maneuver (Supreme Tirade) -1 Strain

3. Extra Maneuver -2 (Supreme Tirade) -1 Strain

Just keep in mind to add modifiers to the checks and perhaps escalate the penalties the more he does it in a single encounter in such a short period of time (i.e. multiple times in a turn should get progressively harder). When was the last time you just stood there and paid full attention to someone going off on you? Personally I tune out pretty fast as do a lot of other people.

Well, here I feel this is cheating. Adding in setback dice is nice, but with 2 Plausible Deniability he can remove 2 setback dice. Escalate the penalties? What penalties? Why should I penalize my player for doing his actions? Making it Harder? Maybe, but in the Talent description is says make a Average Coercion check. So upping the difficulty just because seems wrong to me. So if another player does two maneuvers then performs his action, does their difficulty get upgraded as well?

I agree,it feels like cheating. I wish there was a base rule that said you could only use a Talent once per turn. That would solve this. As it is, my character doesn't use Scathing Tirade more than once a turn. I prefer to spend my other actions on the Leadership ability in the same turn. Rounds things out quite nicely.

If Errata does come out and say you can only use a talent once per round would change this.

Improved Tirade does state that the setback dice do not stack with it's self. So the NPC's only get one setback for Scathing Tirade, no matter if it used twice in a round or twice in two rounds. It lasts for a number of rounds equal to ranks in Coercion.

The intent of this? I'm not sure. Do I expect my player to use this a lot? No, taking -4 Strain each time will be very unwise. The player did ask about using twice in a round. Still even at -1 Strain to use it twice is costly. I feel that the idea of this was to allow the player to use Tirade and still shoot, or do another action. I could see the player shooting, and taking the -1 Strain to do Tirade, and any attack Advantages he gets to recover Strain. I feel that would be the best combination for this.

For those that say this is not that powerful. Compared to some other attacks, maybe. But only the Nemesis suffers Strain damage. Minions and Rivals don't have Strain, so Tirade goes against wound points. My player rolls three Proficiency against two Difficulty. I usually give him a boost die for his Role Playing the action out. So that is on (about) average 4 points of damage on about 2-3 NPCs per turn. Not too bad. But if used three times, that could be quite awesome.

With the -4 Strain on the player, I feel this balances this out quite nicely. This is definitely not something that you can use repeatedly. But if he is in a jam, without a weapon, this can be very effective.

So to wrap up. I feel that Tirade can be used 3 times in a round at -4 Strain. I don't feel that this is nerfing or spamming the Talent, or cheating. The penalties for doing this twice is - 8 Strain. I feel that is penalty enough, and keeps this from being over used. I can see this being used in this manner once every few adventures, in times of dire need. I wanted to work this out with the Forum members before it came up in my sessions. Again, thanks to everyone for helping me work this out, and really see the positive and negatives of this potential use.

Speaking of Scathing Tirade, how do you guys handle triumphs on the roll? Bonus advantages? Something else?

OK, now that I have gotten that out of the way. Whafrog. I find you to be hilarious man. You argue that you can't use this as I had written it out. Then after proved you can, you say it feels like cheating. I don't see how using this game as Rules as Written is cheating. We do not know what the Rules as Intended was, so that should have no bearing. I just fail to see it. All players get this. It is not something that only one player can do.

1. Action (Tirade)

2. Maneuver (Supreme Tirade) -1 Strain

3. Extra Maneuver -2 (Supreme Tirade) -1 Strain

So, in short, I find it funny that at first you say it can't be done, then after it is shown you can, now it is cheating...

Yeah, you're right about proving that you *could* do it, it never occurred to me that someone would stoop to that level. My bad.

Speaking of Scathing Tirade, how do you guys handle triumphs on the roll? Bonus advantages? Something else?

Improved Tirade does state that the setback dice do not stack with it's self. So the NPC's only get one setback for Scathing Tirade, no matter if it used twice in a round or twice in two rounds. It lasts for a number of rounds equal to ranks in Coercion.

The intent of this? I'm not sure. Do I expect my player to use this a lot? No, taking -4 Strain each time will be very unwise. The player did ask about using twice in a round. Still even at -1 Strain to use it twice is costly. I feel that the idea of this was to allow the player to use Tirade and still shoot, or do another action. I could see the player shooting, and taking the -1 Strain to do Tirade, and any attack Advantages he gets to recover Strain. I feel that would be the best combination for this.

For those that say this is not that powerful. Compared to some other attacks, maybe. But only the Nemesis suffers Strain damage. Minions and Rivals don't have Strain, so Tirade goes against wound points. My player rolls three Proficiency against two Difficulty. I usually give him a boost die for his Role Playing the action out. So that is on (about) average 4 points of damage on about 2-3 NPCs per turn. Not too bad. But if used three times, that could be quite awesome.

With the -4 Strain on the player, I feel this balances this out quite nicely. This is definitely not something that you can use repeatedly. But if he is in a jam, without a weapon, this can be very effective.

So to wrap up. I feel that Tirade can be used 3 times in a round at -4 Strain. I don't feel that this is nerfing or spamming the Talent, or cheating. The penalties for doing this twice is - 8 Strain. I feel that is penalty enough, and keeps this from being over used. I can see this being used in this manner once every few adventures, in times of dire need. I wanted to work this out with the Forum members before it came up in my sessions. Again, thanks to everyone for helping me work this out, and really see the positive and negatives of this potential use.

I'm glad Improved Tirade doesn't stack. Keeps the setback dice low and keeps from powergaming the talent.

A handful of damage is useful, especially with the setback die. However, it's a bit spaced out amoungst opponets for my taste. Although, that's mostly my die rolls that do that. Rolling nothing but successes is great, except for when you want advantages. If I was trying to maximize damage with this character I would've given up on Scathing Tirade long ago. It's a neat trick, but nowhere near as dangerous as a trusty blaster at your side.

I agree, the strain cost of doing Scything Tirade three times in a turn keeps the power in check. I don see any need to houserule anything. If you do feel there is abuse going on, sometimes the enemy likes to go after the loud annoying guy who keeps shouting at them. After a few baddies target the Politico, he'll run for cover and out of shouting range soon enough. Also, some badguys might be carrying stun weapons. Land a stun hit on the Politico and he'll run out of strain for constant shouting.

Another piece of advice, my Politico enjoys doing the Guarded Stance manuever. It adds a Setback die to all combat checks the character makes for +1 melee defense. Scything Tirade isn't a combat check, so it's not affected. When I'm going all out and popping strain like nobody's business my Action and two Manuevers are spent on Scything Tirade, Inspiring Rhetoric, and Guarded Stance or Assist.

Speaking of Scathing Tirade, how do you guys handle triumphs on the roll? Bonus advantages? Something else?

Even though it's not a combat check, it seems a lot of people look at the list of suggested advantages/triumphs in the CRB for when a triumph comes up. Usually things like dropping weapons or giving extra setback die. An ally was inspired by what I mean things I just shouted, give a boost die. Enemy was so taken aback by what was said, knock them prone. I feel that since Scathing Tirade is more narritive, I try to come up with a narritive result and say what kinds of things my character is saying. A little more role playing should be involved. Also look at the Coercion skill listing in the CRB for more ideas.