I'm legitimately confused here. On this thread, someone is concerned about the domination of swarms (quantity over quality), and they get torn into. Over on the Wave 4 Speculation threads, however, an overwhelming concern is that the new, expensive (quality) ships won't be played because of the efficiency of quantity. Just because they used a Rebel list that is not a true swarm as an example, doesn't mean their point is irrelevant.

I'm not a tournament player, and I'm not that concerned about what's statistically found to be best, so I really don't have that much of an investment in the topic. However, I constantly see threads about how powerful the TIE swarm is. That doesn't mean everyone runs it, and it doesn't mean it's unbeatable, but we shouldn't just ignore it. From what I understand, the basic strategy of the swarm is "focus fire." When people discuss how to beat it though, their strategy is vague, and essentially boils down to "play extremely well." Some might say, "What's wrong with that? You should play well in a tournament." The problem is, when the counter to something really simple is really complex, it's not balanced. It's not rock, paper, scissors, when scissors takes an elaborate gesture that not everyone has the physical dexterity for.

All that said, I'm not saying it's that much of a problem. I honestly don't know, and I have enough experience elsewhere to say that sometimes tournament-dominating strategies aren't always widespread because they're that broken. Sometimes strategies dominate tournaments just because they're the flavor of the month, until someone famously comes up with something new.

I do think it's something FFG should keep an eye on though, because experience has also taught me that this is a precarious game design feature. Why take a special ship that's a huge points investment when you can stick a couple of extra bodies in? Upgrading a ship into a powerhouse instead of running a swarm reminds me of Auras in Magic: The Gathering. Auras, spells that attach to/upgrade existing creatures, are pretty much jokes to any seriously competitive player, because all they do is put all your eggs in one basket, making it really easy for your opponent to gain a huge advantage all at once.

As casual as I am, I can still recognize when I'm massively handicapping myself. In the future, I don't want to know that I'm guaranteeing my defeat by using named pilots and upgrade cards.Y

Are point was that Swarms are not currently as big of a problem as presented in the beginning of this forum. Yes, they are one effective build, but not to the exclusion of other effective builds. Right next to this thread (When I was looking) was another thread written by someone claiming that FFF should not have allowed people to play 2 named YT-1300's because it was unbeatable. If one person is say that 2 falcons is unbeatable and anther is saying that swarms is unbeatable, they kind of prove each other wrong.

I have played this game from the very beginning (okay not really that long), I wouldn't call my self an expert in the sense that I am guaranteed to place in the top three of any tournament I play in, but I think I have seen enough of this game to say that Swarms are not over-powered.

While I think that the OP has over stated how powerful swarms are, I do think that the fact that they have been one of the most powerful lists sense the games creating does speak to the fact that they are a powerful build. And I also agree that most advice that you get when asking how to beat a swarm boils down to "fly better then them." That being said I don't think that there needs to be any large changes to curb swarms.

I would like to see something extra for higher PS pilots, or rather, i'd like to see something that gives a bonus to pilots that, in comparison have a higher PS then their target. I think a rule along the lines of "if your pilot skill is 4(a random number, i've not tested this theory at all) higher then the ship that you are shooting at, or is shooting at you, then you may re-roll one blank (or perhaps one die). Basically it would give Ibtisam's ability to a ship if its PS was a large amount more then the ship it was currently interacting with.

Is it over powered? I'm not sure, like I said I haven't used it. But maybe it would give a slight bump to those high PS ships without completely allowing them to overwhelm a swarm, or low PS list. I know this won't happen but if you're very worried about swarms at your LGS you could give it a try.

Just let me know how it works:D

Jokubas restated my position nicely.

As for the definition of a "swarm", the one I use is "a large-ish number of lower PS ships with few or no upgrades", and usually this means 4-5 rebels or 5+ imperials. 2X2B would be a common rebel example. We've seen these lists easily handle two falcons and every high PS build they've faced. I also personally watched one at the tournament go head-on with a heavy tie bomber ordinance build with assault missiles then blunder straight into seismic charges, and it was a 100-to-0 blowout for the "rebel swarm". The imp didn't do everything right, but it should've been closer!

I feel if you want to be competitive there's almost no reason not to run one of these builds. There are plenty of reasons not to run two falcons, high PS, or even tie swarm (even more susceptible to assault missiles). There is no list, in my *opinion*, that a 2X2B or 4B player can sit down across from and think "I'm screwed". Another rebel "swarm" or tie swarm gives them a good fight, but I'd say those are evenly matched (evidence the FFG world's finals 2X2B vs. tie swarm which ended with 1 surviving B with 1 health left). Consensus seems to be it's almost always worth giving up pilot skills or upgrades for the additional dice and health of another ship.

The upgrade I suggested, in my opinion, provides a soft counter to focused "swarmy" fire, and creates an interesting wrinkle and a more effective role for some of the under-used ships.

Edit: Another of my group observed that my EWAR upgrade + Biggs would break the game, so some kind of unattractive exception would need to be carved out.

I've handled swarms, falcons, and blue AdvS x4 with a 3 man crew of wedge, Jan, and a dagger. I've also done just fine with ABXY squads as well, which *gasp* has an A wing in it. That squad also out performed most opponents, swarms and falcons included (7-1 record with it and funny thing is it died to a 3 man squad). The game is very balanced, you just need to not play to the enemies tune, usually meaning running head long into them and expecting the dice to play in your favor. If you want to do that though, fight fire with fire. Just fly with that mind set and plan on MIN/MAXing your alpha with no regards to late game.

Jokubas restated my position nicely.

As for the definition of a "swarm", the one I use is "a large-ish number of lower PS ships with few or no upgrades", and usually this means 4-5 rebels or 5+ imperials. 2X2B would be a common rebel example. We've seen these lists easily handle two falcons and every high PS build they've faced. I also personally watched one at the tournament go head-on with a heavy tie bomber ordinance build with assault missiles then blunder straight into seismic charges, and it was a 100-to-0 blowout for the "rebel swarm". The imp didn't do everything right, but it should've been closer!

I feel if you want to be competitive there's almost no reason not to run one of these builds. There are plenty of reasons not to run two falcons, high PS, or even tie swarm (even more susceptible to assault missiles). There is no list, in my *opinion*, that a 2X2B or 4B player can sit down across from and think "I'm screwed". Another rebel "swarm" or tie swarm gives them a good fight, but I'd say those are evenly matched (evidence the FFG world's finals 2X2B vs. tie swarm which ended with 1 surviving B with 1 health left). Consensus seems to be it's almost always worth giving up pilot skills or upgrades for the additional dice and health of another ship.

The upgrade I suggested, in my opinion, provides a soft counter to focused "swarmy" fire, and creates an interesting wrinkle and a more effective role for some of the under-used ships.

Edit: Another of my group observed that my EWAR upgrade + Biggs would break the game, so some kind of unattractive exception would need to be carved out.

Ok but FWIW your definition of a swarm is pretty unique to you. A 5 ship Rebel list like AABBB is the closest they get (right now) to something approaching a swarm. 4 ships does not a swarm make.

The upgrade I suggested, in my opinion, provides a soft counter to focused "swarmy" fire, and creates an interesting wrinkle and a more effective role for some of the under-used ships.

Edit: Another of my group observed that my EWAR upgrade + Biggs would break the game, so some kind of unattractive exception would need to be carved out.

The upgrade you suggest would not only be broken, it would be an auto include on every named pilot, or none named pilot that could equip it. Every list you would see would have it. Not only does it break swarm tactics, it also breaks the focus fire of smaller 3 man ships that need it even more desperately and use synergy to achieve their desired effect. I just shiver at the thought of a green A-Wing with this upgrade flying behind Han as he just barrels into groups and not be touched for more than 2 damage a turn.

*yay typos*

The upgrade you suggest would not only be broken, it would be an auto include on every named pilot, or none named pilot that could equip it. Every list you would see would have it. Not only does it break swarm tactics, it also breaks the focus fire of smaller 3 man ships that need it even more desperately and use synergy to achieve their desired effect. I just shiver at the thought of a green A-Wing with this upgrade flying behind Han as he just barrels into groups and not be touched for more than 2 damage a turn.

*yay typos*

Han could do that now if he had Biggs behind him. My card accomplishes about the same only you COULD shoot Han (once) whereas Biggs compels you not to. I suggested the card as either crew or system upgrade. If the card is a system upgrade, Han+Awing can't run it. As a crew card it protects the A-wing, not the Falcon. Also note the card doesn't protect the cardholder ship; it's still subject to the full weight of the swarm firepower.

I don't think that it's as one-sided (quantity over quality) as some people suggest. Just this week, I saw a guy do extremely well (3-1) with a 2-ship build (Solo and Tycho) who only lost his one game because some guy rolled something like 85% hits against him. Overall, FFG has done a great job with balancing and I don't think this is a huge issue, and frankly one that will get improved when the Rebs finally get access to a cheap fighter so they can slip in a pair of bodies to balance out a couple aces.

Overall, if I were to nitpick, I would say that PS is probably SLIGHTLY overpriced, some pilots are nerfed by lack of an EPS upgrade (and substandard innate ability) versus their generics, and the game's mechanics when it comes to overlap and ability denial favor mass ships over elite forces. But the issues are small and the last thing I really want to see is only named pilots and no reason to take grunts. Here, there's clearly advantages to both and if there's an edge, it's small.

Fewer pilots means more pressure on flying mistake-free and more vulnerability to dice, so the biggest mistake I make (and see others make) when trying to fly elite 2/3 ship builds is being way too aggressive or risky, when I should be trying to wait for my opponent to mess up and then punish them for it. The game's only, what, less than 2 years old, and has a small enough base of ships that the meta gets thoroughly rebooted with each expansion. Whatever problem is perceived is being addressed through things like Imperial Aces which is clearly and intentionally trying to beef up high PS interceptors to make them more of a factor.

Jokubas restated my position nicely.

As for the definition of a "swarm", the one I use is "a large-ish number of lower PS ships with few or no upgrades", and usually this means 4-5 rebels or 5+ imperials. 2X2B would be a common rebel example. We've seen these lists easily handle two falcons and every high PS build they've faced. I also personally watched one at the tournament go head-on with a heavy tie bomber ordinance build with assault missiles then blunder straight into seismic charges, and it was a 100-to-0 blowout for the "rebel swarm". The imp didn't do everything right, but it should've been closer!

I feel if you want to be competitive there's almost no reason not to run one of these builds. There are plenty of reasons not to run two falcons, high PS, or even tie swarm (even more susceptible to assault missiles). There is no list, in my *opinion*, that a 2X2B or 4B player can sit down across from and think "I'm screwed". Another rebel "swarm" or tie swarm gives them a good fight, but I'd say those are evenly matched (evidence the FFG world's finals 2X2B vs. tie swarm which ended with 1 surviving B with 1 health left). Consensus seems to be it's almost always worth giving up pilot skills or upgrades for the additional dice and health of another ship.

The upgrade I suggested, in my opinion, provides a soft counter to focused "swarmy" fire, and creates an interesting wrinkle and a more effective role for some of the under-used ships.

Edit: Another of my group observed that my EWAR upgrade + Biggs would break the game, so some kind of unattractive exception would need to be carved out.

Sorry, but your perspective, especially at the "store" level is unique. Take a look at the store championships winner thread. There are several situations where quality beats quantity, evidenced by the winning lists. The TC store tourney was won by a list that included Vader, Turr, and Fel.

Your definition of a swarm is way too broad. There's a reason you think swarms dominate and that's it -- you're calling everything a swarm that isn't a two or three ship list builds. Two or three ship builds mean you not only have elite pilots but you are adding a lot of upgrades to them.

Ironically, the World's tournament is a counter to your argument, simply having enough ships was not the deciding factor. Paul's higher PS and better ships allowed him to hang on and win.

When people talk about quantity over quality (as I have) it's often from a risk/reward point of view and what will consistently win more often, but that doesn't mean that quality never wins over quantity. If quantity is always good, why aren't five ship Imperial builds even better, or why aren't people going with five rebel ships?

Honestly, I think it would be worthwhile to examine other aspects of why these lists are so challenging and what to do to counter them rather than creating a house rule.

The upgrade you suggest would not only be broken, it would be an auto include on every named pilot, or none named pilot that could equip it. Every list you would see would have it. Not only does it break swarm tactics, it also breaks the focus fire of smaller 3 man ships that need it even more desperately and use synergy to achieve their desired effect. I just shiver at the thought of a green A-Wing with this upgrade flying behind Han as he just barrels into groups and not be touched for more than 2 damage a turn.

*yay typos*

Han could do that now if he had Biggs behind him. My card accomplishes about the same only you COULD shoot Han (once) whereas Biggs compels you not to. I suggested the card as either crew or system upgrade. If the card is a system upgrade, Han+Awing can't run it. As a crew card it protects the A-wing, not the Falcon. Also note the card doesn't protect the cardholder ship; it's still subject to the full weight of the swarm firepower.

Ok, then, Biggs has to be able to be fired on for this effect to happen, where yours is not. Also you want the Biggs ability to no longer be unique, causing people to no longer necessarily wanting to use him but instead an E-Wing with a system. Or how about Chewbacca with this behind Han? You just boosted the potency of dual falcons which will just cause massive amounts of other people complaining.System or crew? Ok, TIE phantom, cloaks (depending on what it allows the ship to do), has this upgrade, what do you do now? That firespray/lambda/other phantom will be unable to be hurt near enough.

Like I said, your upgrade is fundamentally broken. I understand that you are having a tough time with a certain squad, and that is reasonable, BUT instead of trying to say its broken, when it isn't, challenge yourself to figure out what you are doing wrong. Is it your squad that you are flying against it? Is it the tactics that you are using not useful in this situation? Are you placing asteroids in areas that would help break up the formation flying of your opponent while giving your squad the advantage? Things like that, but instead ask them in first person. I don't wanna sound like I'm just berating you, but you are making a complaint that many people have before, with just as many people giving you perfect examples of how to beat it with out implementing your own rules and upgrades.

*You think I would learn to spell check before hitting submit.*

This is why I am not a fan of 'house rules' typically we don't make good ones as we are not game designers, nor do we know what the process is that FFG used to balance the game.. often I see house rules that break a game in the favor of the creator... intentional or not, I prefer to use the rules given and enjoy the game.

The OP's speaks a little truth despite the awful presentation.

Statistically, more ships means more hull points and attack dice to throw at your opponents. This is a concept that cannot be ignored.

There is a reason why lists like Howl+7 and XXBB are common in the tournament scene. Anyone overlooking this must be out of their mind. Count it up, go ahead. The Howl list has 8x2 attack dice at range band 3 with re-roll hits on each attempt. The list itself sports a combined 24 hull points. XXBB throws out 12 attack dice and packs a whopping 26 hull points, and all the ships are shielded before taking critical damage.

One list throws out more consistent damage, but is subject to more damage in return = Howlrunner + Friends.

The other list throws out lower damage, but has much more durability, especially vs. Crits = XXBB

Why do 3x or 4x Interceptor lists fail? Or are hardly seen at Nationals or Worlds? Because they have 9-12 Hull Points total and lower damage output than either of these lists. The maneuver dial and higher PS helps, but it does not account for half the durability.

Most of you have figured this out by now: Killing enemy ships results in a very polarizing effect on the battlefield, and that's because he's less capable of doing damage to your ships in return. Less ships means less dice and less dice means less damage to you. Losing 1 Interceptor out of 4 is a lot different than losing 1 Tie out of 8.

Will Imperial Aces change this? I don't think so. Although the one person that truly stands out of that bunch of Carnor Jax and his ability to neuter Tie Swarm if he (or his team) can be piloted into position. Whether or not this actually happens in a tournament match is another thing. I personally think Aces won't change anything, but confirming the grim realization that Interceptors are pretty crummy in the competitive circuit.

Four ships is not a swarm. And check recent battle reports, how many swarms won?

I was in a 26 player tournament yesterday and the biggest swarm I saw was 6 ships and it didn't crack the top ten, while two double YT lists made the top four. Move on, this is no longer a real issue.

Ok, then, Biggs has to be able to be fired on for this effect to happen, where yours is not. Also you want the Biggs ability to no longer be unique, causing people to no longer necessarily wanting to use him but instead an E-Wing with a system. Or how about Chewbacca with this behind Han? You just boosted the potency of dual falcons which will just cause massive amounts of other people complaining.System or crew? Ok, TIE phantom, cloaks (depending on what it allows the ship to do), has this upgrade, what do you do now? That firespray/lambda/other phantom will be unable to be hurt near enough.

Like I said, your upgrade is fundamentally broken. I understand that you are having a tough time with a certain squad, ........

Yeah, Biggs has to stay attack-able to be effective, but my upgrade has to stay at range 1. Biggs can protect a point-blank-ranged ally from way out at range 3 behind an asteroid. This is a different flavor for sure, but I wouldn't call that a game breaking distinction. I feel like Falcons are already going to lose to XXBB pretty easily - XXBB can down a Falcon in about 2 rounds, whereas the falcons probably only kill an xwing. Whether or not it's broken on an Ewing, Phantom, or any other unreleased ship is hard to say as we don't know the details of their abilities or the cloaking mechanic. And we haven't even discussed the cost yet. Biggs costs 2 point over a red squadron. What if this card is 7? Or 8?

The "challenge yourself" is all well and good. In fact, I have, and continue to. I find that these lists are sufficiently maneuverable by reasonably experienced players, even in tight formations, in and around obstacles, to bring their guns to bare on a target of opportunity, and that target probably doesn't survive the first round of combat (unless it's a falcon). Unless the opponent can answer that kill, it's an uphill battle at that point. There's no good way to answer that kill without bringing about as many of your own red dice out to play. Or if there is, it almost certainly requires more cunning than your opponent requires. So why would you handicap yourself by bringing anything else?

The OP's speaks a little truth despite the awful presentation.

Thanks?

How about I go back and call it "rebel schwarm" and define it as "4 or more ships with 12 or more red dice"?

The OP's speaks a little truth despite the awful presentation.

Statistically, more ships means more hull points and attack dice to throw at your opponents. This is a concept that cannot be ignored.

There is a reason why lists like Howl+7 and XXBB are common in the tournament scene. Anyone overlooking this must be out of their mind. Count it up, go ahead. The Howl list has 8x2 attack dice at range band 3 with re-roll hits on each attempt. The list itself sports a combined 24 hull points. XXBB throws out 12 attack dice and packs a whopping 26 hull points, and all the ships are shielded before taking critical damage.

One list throws out more consistent damage, but is subject to more damage in return = Howlrunner + Friends.

The other list throws out lower damage, but has much more durability, especially vs. Crits = XXBB

Why do 3x or 4x Interceptor lists fail? Or are hardly seen at Nationals or Worlds? Because they have 9-12 Hull Points total and lower damage output than either of these lists. The maneuver dial and higher PS helps, but it does not account for half the durability.

Most of you have figured this out by now: Killing enemy ships results in a very polarizing effect on the battlefield, and that's because he's less capable of doing damage to your ships in return. Less ships means less dice and less dice means less damage to you. Losing 1 Interceptor out of 4 is a lot different than losing 1 Tie out of 8.

Will Imperial Aces change this? I don't think so. Although the one person that truly stands out of that bunch of Carnor Jax and his ability to neuter Tie Swarm if he (or his team) can be piloted into position. Whether or not this actually happens in a tournament match is another thing. I personally think Aces won't change anything, but confirming the grim realization that Interceptors are pretty crummy in the competitive circuit.

So you play at 102 point costs? Most howl can support is 6 ties and herself, so 7 ships, with 2 attack each. Yeah its a decent list, but every one at my LGS has tried it, got bored with it due to it being relatively dry game play wise and that is had a very low win ratio. Eh, I'm done on the topic. People will always complain when a list beats their list on a regular basis, its just plain fact. I personally have flown against enough "swarms" and found most of them, meh. The game is balanced, and if it comes down to you losing against that tactic almost every time and having to impose house rules, possibly it isn't the list that is beating you. I personally build 4 ship lists on both sides, it seems to be a sweet spot with my flying, though I do enjoy the elite team builds.

Any how, to each their own. And who knows, wing man might be exactly what you are hoping for to counter swarms.

The OP's speaks a little truth despite the awful presentation.

Statistically, more ships means more hull points and attack dice to throw at your opponents. This is a concept that cannot be ignored.

There is a reason why lists like Howl+7 and XXBB are common in the tournament scene. Anyone overlooking this must be out of their mind. Count it up, go ahead. The Howl list has 8x2 attack dice at range band 3 with re-roll hits on each attempt. The list itself sports a combined 24 hull points. XXBB throws out 12 attack dice and packs a whopping 26 hull points, and all the ships are shielded before taking critical damage.

One list throws out more consistent damage, but is subject to more damage in return = Howlrunner + Friends.

The other list throws out lower damage, but has much more durability, especially vs. Crits = XXBB

Why do 3x or 4x Interceptor lists fail? Or are hardly seen at Nationals or Worlds? Because they have 9-12 Hull Points total and lower damage output than either of these lists. The maneuver dial and higher PS helps, but it does not account for half the durability.

Most of you have figured this out by now: Killing enemy ships results in a very polarizing effect on the battlefield, and that's because he's less capable of doing damage to your ships in return. Less ships means less dice and less dice means less damage to you. Losing 1 Interceptor out of 4 is a lot different than losing 1 Tie out of 8.

Will Imperial Aces change this? I don't think so. Although the one person that truly stands out of that bunch of Carnor Jax and his ability to neuter Tie Swarm if he (or his team) can be piloted into position. Whether or not this actually happens in a tournament match is another thing. I personally think Aces won't change anything, but confirming the grim realization that Interceptors are pretty crummy in the competitive circuit.

No one is overlooking the idea that when you can efficiently spend points on something, you gain an advantage. And right now that efficiency is in B-Wings and still with Imperial Tie swarms with Howlrunner. So, some of your points are valid, if a bit overstated, especially considering Wave 3 was out just over a month or two prior to worlds, so it will be interesting to see the role interceptors play this year. However, there's no doubt that they require good flying when you are paying a premium for the dial and boost in place of shields/hull, a lot of which can sadly be neutralized with a turret or two.

Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, but if you look at the lists that are being posted in the store tournament section, only one was a swarm and only one B-Wing list. There are, in fact, a lot of two ship lists (that include a Falcon), and more than I'd expect including interceptors. This tournament, at Team Covenant, was won by Vader, Turr, Fel: http://teamcovenant.com/zachbunn/2014/02/24/2014-x-wing-store-championship-report/ with a game where the winner took apart a TIE swarm. Whether they hold up on a larger stage and last to a championship round there remains to be seen, but while there are certainly some efficient build in this game, the disparity isn't quite that bad.

Ok, then, Biggs has to be able to be fired on for this effect to happen, where yours is not. Also you want the Biggs ability to no longer be unique, causing people to no longer necessarily wanting to use him but instead an E-Wing with a system. Or how about Chewbacca with this behind Han? You just boosted the potency of dual falcons which will just cause massive amounts of other people complaining.System or crew? Ok, TIE phantom, cloaks (depending on what it allows the ship to do), has this upgrade, what do you do now? That firespray/lambda/other phantom will be unable to be hurt near enough.

Like I said, your upgrade is fundamentally broken. I understand that you are having a tough time with a certain squad, ........

Yeah, Biggs has to stay attack-able to be effective, but my upgrade has to stay at range 1. Biggs can protect a point-blank-ranged ally from way out at range 3 behind an asteroid. This is a different flavor for sure, but I wouldn't call that a game breaking distinction. I feel like Falcons are already going to lose to XXBB pretty easily - XXBB can down a Falcon in about 2 rounds, whereas the falcons probably only kill an xwing. Whether or not it's broken on an Ewing, Phantom, or any other unreleased ship is hard to say as we don't know the details of their abilities or the cloaking mechanic. And we haven't even discussed the cost yet. Biggs costs 2 point over a red squadron. What if this card is 7? Or 8?

The "challenge yourself" is all well and good. In fact, I have, and continue to. I find that these lists are sufficiently maneuverable by reasonably experienced players, even in tight formations, in and around obstacles, to bring their guns to bare on a target of opportunity, and that target probably doesn't survive the first round of combat (unless it's a falcon). Unless the opponent can answer that kill, it's an uphill battle at that point. There's no good way to answer that kill without bringing about as many of your own red dice out to play. Or if there is, it almost certainly requires more cunning than your opponent requires. So why would you handicap yourself by bringing anything else?

The OP's speaks a little truth despite the awful presentation.

Thanks?

How about I go back and call it "rebel schwarm" and define it as "4 or more ships with 12 or more red dice"?

Because it's a somewhat odd definition considering that there are a lot of rebel builds that would fit into it that aren't the exact list you're frustrated with...

Sorry, but what you might be missing is your "four ship rebel swarms" would be able to fit your card in, and with great effect. Maybe that's why it's a problem?

If your opponents are flying this list in tight formation and that's what makes it a challenge, why not incorporate something like a couple assault missiles, with the B-wings as juicy targets to break it up? If they're flying B-wings and X-wings and you're flying interceptors with higher PS, are you having trouble predicting where they might move and bouncing out of their arcs?

Seriously 4 ships is not a swarm furthermore the entire point of the xxbb build is that the higher ps allows it to kill most targets first. Honestly sounds more like the op just wants his specific named builds to be stronger. Although There is a lot of good ideas in this thread it's really not an issue. Even if they made a special EPT that crushed low ps pilots such as ps1-2 you just end up pushing the meta to ps 3-4 pilots. The problem is not swarms it's most named pilots are too expensive and most upgrades are not worth the cost. And honestly the Han shoots first build kinda defeats the whole theory behind this thread.

4 posts and you have this all figured out huh? The dread 4 ship swarm? Stop fixing what is not broken.

The suggested upgrade breaks the game. I haven't seen this brought up yet in the thread, but as either a crew card or a system upgrade, the "EWAR" upgrade is suddenly a must-have--not for small, elite lists, but for swarms. Howlrunner with four TIE Fighters and an EWAR Lambda would instantly be one of the most powerful lists in the game, since it wants to be in formation anyway, and the new upgrade nicely cancels out the swarm's only real weakness. You'll no longer be able to focus fire, which means the swarm remains at full offensive strength much longer, and is correspondingly even more dangerous.

I don't think that it's as one-sided (quantity over quality) as some people suggest. Just this week, I saw a guy do extremely well (3-1) with a 2-ship build (Solo and Tycho) who only lost his one game because some guy rolled something like 85% hits against him. Overall, FFG has done a great job with balancing and I don't think this is a huge issue, and frankly one that will get improved when the Rebs finally get access to a cheap fighter so they can slip in a pair of bodies to balance out a couple aces.

Overall, if I were to nitpick, I would say that PS is probably SLIGHTLY overpriced, some pilots are nerfed by lack of an EPS upgrade (and substandard innate ability) versus their generics, and the game's mechanics when it comes to overlap and ability denial favor mass ships over elite forces. But the issues are small and the last thing I really want to see is only named pilots and no reason to take grunts. Here, there's clearly advantages to both and if there's an edge, it's small.

Fewer pilots means more pressure on flying mistake-free and more vulnerability to dice, so the biggest mistake I make (and see others make) when trying to fly elite 2/3 ship builds is being way too aggressive or risky, when I should be trying to wait for my opponent to mess up and then punish them for it. The game's only, what, less than 2 years old, and has a small enough base of ships that the meta gets thoroughly rebooted with each expansion. Whatever problem is perceived is being addressed through things like Imperial Aces which is clearly and intentionally trying to beef up high PS interceptors to make them more of a factor.

Swarms are awesome. Go ahead, try and outfly them, the dice are still on their side. Cheaper ships, more disruption, and and more shields/HP for the rebels is starting to stack those odds even more. Balance is here but its tenuous and shifting rapidly.

Generic pilots over named pilots basically rule this game.

Just look at nationals and you see the answer.

Basically means that with a few exceptions the named pilots are overpriced vs. What they add to a squadron.

You can argue points and builds all you want but until there is a somewhat even distribution of named pilots in winning tournaments lists, there is something wrong with their pricing.

I don't care what people bring to tournaments, just what people win with.

A tournament with A-wings and Interceptors in the final game? Obviously these results must be ignored, as it might invalidate our beliefs.

Instead of trying to design an upgrade/crew card that might open up more cans of trouble than you bargained for, why not begin by making the playing field larger? That way you can more easily fly around any group giving you trouble and space is a big place after all.

Switching from a larger to a smaller field is also easier to get used to than going without an upgrade that you may have learned to depend on.

This whole argument kind of collapses in on itself anyway, because what's being argued is in fact that there are very few popular/successful lists made up of nothing but named pilots. There are tons of successful lists that use at least one. The swarms that keep getting brought up - conveniently ignored is the fact that Howlrunner's special ability is what makes most of them a legitimate offensive threat.

Biggs sees service in any number of Rebel lists, protecting Wedge, sometimes a Falcon, sometimes acting as a delivery system for B-Wings or other ships.

The Falcon+Wingmen archetype has been popular ever since wave 2. Han Shoots First variants (with - wait for it, Han) still see quite a bit of action. Bluebacca - Chewie and a couple of Blues - is very hot right now, although I've seen variations using X-Wings, A-Wings, Y-Wings, just about anything as wingmen, including named pilots like Jan.

Dutch shows up in quite a few lists. Garven shows up in quite a few lists. Luke remains a popular endgame option. There's a whole other thread complaining about the frequency with which dual named Falcon lists show up in competition.

I've seen competitive lists using any or all of the named Lambda pilots. Both named bomber pilots are quite popular - Jonus shows up in any number of lists, sometimes purely for his ability to act as the Howlrunner of secondary weapons. Kath and Krassis both get a fair amount of play in Firespray lists.

I could go on. And on. And on. If the argument being made is that not a lot of exclusively named pilot lists are running around because of the cost involved limiting the number of ships you can take, that's probably true. I don't know that it makes named pilots as a concept overpriced. It simply means they often function better as the centerpiece of a squadron rather than they do making up the entire squadron.

There are a ton of lists out there - popular, successful, proven lists, that use at least ONE named pilot. And it's entirely possible that's really how they are intended to be used in the first place.