For those who play warmachine you are familiar with tier lists. That, I think would add some fun.

That wouldn't be a bad thing. I liked the tier list idea in Warmahordes... It added some fluff to the list building without really effecting the meta drastically.

I don't know that FFG would do something like that, but it could be a fun house rule thing to work out.

in my opinion, when it really comes down to it the person with more ships will win the match. I know there are some quality lists that tend to win tournaments. And it is due to the high skill of the player. However it can also be attributed to one other thing, luck.

Lists with more ships just have a much greater chance of winning. If the dice rolls are average, the player with more ships will win hands down. Now sometimes the dice rolls can be hot and the quality list will get the victory. But three quarters of the time the quality list will suffer and will fail. I saw this all the time at Worlds. Almost everybody on this thread is a pointing out all these quality lists that win. Well those players had a good day. I'm sorry but if the dice rolls do not work in your favor in this game your strategy doesn't mean anything. If I line up a good shot and hit with all three or four dice, and that swarm ship evades enough for it to stay alive, my high pilot skill will not mean anything. The game is just set up where list with more ships win.

It also comes down to we're not getting that many units out for this game. How is that in two Worlds in a row, swarm lists always make it to the top 16. There was one list that was 3 ships with a Falcon. That right there tells you if you want to win bring more ship. Where were the Interceptor lists, the TIE quality lists, and the Han shot first lists? They were packing up and leaving.

I agree that there really isn't anything change it. The meta has been set up so that the more ships you have the better off you will be. Sure Imperial aces will come out, and people play with higher point ships for a while. But I guarantee you at Worlds you'll see. the majority of Lists be swarm lists. Because if you have a swarm and you can fly it you are almost on beatable. There's no getting around it and there's no changing it. It`s just how the game is. The only difference will be the headhunter will make good players win with rebel swarm lists

in my opinion, when it really comes down to it the person with more ships will win the match.

This is simply untrue. The popularity of the HSF lists is proof of this if nothing else is. A 4 rebel ship vs a Tie Swarm, even the 7 Tie w/Howlrunner can and does win. It's not like it's an occasional fluke either, it happens quite often in friendly games and in Tourney's.

How is that in two Worlds in a row, swarm lists always make it to the top 16.

Because swarm lists are good lists. But there were lots of other kinds of lists in the top 16 in Worlds. This along with pretty much everything you said is simply false and been proven false in thousands upon thousands of games played in which swarms are beaten by 3-4 ship lists.

If what you were saying, then the top 16 as well as the winners of most tournaments should be swam lists, yet that hasn't happened.

Yeah, that is a bit too much of an assumption. Is the TIE Swarm going anywhere, no. Is 4 ship builds (which is an extremely vague descriptor) going anywhere, no. But we only had 2 TIE swarms in the top 16 last year. Hardly dominant. Both of which were different. If you want to confine the meta analysis to only number of ships, that's fine. But number of ships doesn't tell the true story of the meta.

Is the TIE Swarm going anywhere, no.

There's no question or debate really that the Tie Swarm is a good list. It's not easy to fly effectively in rocks. But it's a good list, it has a lot going for it. But it's far from unbeatable or even dominate in the current meta.

It's not even the only competitive Imperial list. Out of the top 8 at worlds, 4 lists were Imperial and only 2 of them were swarms.

There wasn`t just TIE swarms. It was 5 ship rebel lists. And I apologize I was using the term swarm wrong. What I meant to say was hits. If your list does not have at least 30 hits you will lose.

Don`t get me wrong good piloting is a huge factor. And sometimes the 3 and 4 ship lists do win a tourney or two. But if the pilot quality is the same and no one`s dice is better, the more ships win. 30 hits beats 15 due to attrition and sheer bump factor. In this game a 5 TIE bomber list with Howlrunner beats Wedge, Biggs and Luke hands down.

As for the quality lists that won, i will read and see if dice or was not a factor.

In this game a 5 TIE bomber list with Howlrunner beats Wedge, Biggs and Luke hands down.

No it does not. If both sides flew like newbies and did nothing but k-turn jousting then perhaps that might be true. But anyone who has any skill in flying their ships can remove the advantage in pure HP's.

Saying 30 hit's wins every time is an amazingly simplistic way to look at it, and doesn't even fit with what actually happens when people play the game.

It's not that 3-4 ships win a tourney or two, they win as consistently as anything else does. Because again, Tie Swarms do not win every or even a majority of tourney's.

There wasn`t just TIE swarms. It was 5 ship rebel lists. And I apologize I was using the term swarm wrong. What I meant to say was hits. If your list does not have at least 30 hits you will lose.

The current world champion list has 26 hit points; the world champion before that had 20.

I need to look at the lists again, but 5 ship Rebels wasn't exactly a large percentage of the top 16.

And again, look how many forget where Luke/Wedge/Biggs placed at Gencon.

My favorite Imperial list is the 3 Saber Squad and Turr w/PtL. That only has 12 HP's total, yet I've both won with it, and lost to it a number of times. Dice wasn't the fact either, it was good use of boost/barrel roll to stay out of the fire arc of the enemy ships.

I've also played 4 Tie Bomber lists, Firespray + 4 Tie Fighter, and even shuttle lists. None of those have your magic 30HP needed to win.

The classic 4 X-Wing list which as done very well since the game came out, has 20HP, Even the XXBB list only has 26hp. HSF has 23HP. You have to start getting into the 4 B-Wing, 4 Y-Wing list to get to 30 or past. Even the 7 Tie Swarm only has 21 HP's.

So based on your logic, the 4 Y-Wing list should of dominated the Meta since wave 1 seeing that until the B-Wing nothing could even come close to this 30 hits you claim is needed to win.

That said, a 4 Scimitar list with Holwrunner wouldn't do anywhere nearly as well as you seem to think. Howlrunner is a massive and easily removed target in that list, you can't even give her a Stealth Device, and once she's gone you have 5 naked Bombers.

There wasn`t just TIE swarms. It was 5 ship rebel lists. And I apologize I was using the term swarm wrong. What I meant to say was hits. If your list does not have at least 30 hits you will lose.

The current world champion list has 26 hit points; the world champion before that had 20.

I recently took 2nd in a tournament of 8 with a list that had 12 (four Interceptors)

There wasn`t just TIE swarms. It was 5 ship rebel lists. And I apologize I was using the term swarm wrong. What I meant to say was hits. If your list does not have at least 30 hits you will lose.

Don`t get me wrong good piloting is a huge factor. And sometimes the 3 and 4 ship lists do win a tourney or two. But if the pilot quality is the same and no one`s dice is better, the more ships win. 30 hits beats 15 due to attrition and sheer bump factor. In this game a 5 TIE bomber list with Howlrunner beats Wedge, Biggs and Luke hands down.

As for the quality lists that won, i will read and see if dice or was not a factor.

This is one of the most disingenuous stances anyone has taken in regards to the game. It's completely ignorant of event results and goes a step further with the absurd expectations and implications.

So you'll determine if dice were a factor or not? By that you mean you'll throw out results that don't fit your hypothesis.

It's completely ignorant of event results and goes a step further with the absurd expectations and implications.

I think the thing that I keep coming back as perhaps the most absurd thing he said is this 30 hit value he mentions.

Because again, if what he is saying was true at all then consider the following lists.

5 Y-Wings should of dominated Wave 1 and continue to dominate the meta, 5 Y-wings come in at a whopping 40hps. Nothing else comes close to this. In Wave 2 3 YT's and 3 Firesprays come close at 30hp each. With Wave 3, we have the 4 B-Wing list with 32hp and the 5 Tie Bomber list with 36hps. So clearly at 40hp nothing should be able to stand up to the 5 Y-Wing list...

It's proven that the above is wrong, Y-Wings are considered sub-par by many, but is IMO a great ship, yet it should of ruled the meta and continue to do so based on what we know of wave 4... The triple Firespray and YT does work, but hasn't won any major tourney that I know of. Same goes for the 6 Tie Bomber list.

I don't always fly into a swarm, but when I do, I like to bring along my little friend, the assault missle. Our the prox mine or other bomb if I am flying Empire. Just having it forces your opponent to break up formation. I'll still say one of the most powerful lists out there is the tie swarm. Now that's a swarm. I also think that the arrival of a cheap missle carrier for the rebels may change things up a lot as well.