Hey guys, I did search the forums first, and I did not find the answer to the exact question I'm asking, so here comes (yet) another rules question:

Is Swarm Tactics mandatory once you've put that upgrade on your ship?

Here's the scenario: I had Vader and 3 Saber Squadron Pilots all with the Elite Talent upgrade so that I could chain ST and make everyone 9 PS. I checked the forums to make sure this was legit, and apparently it is. Anyhow, my opponent proceeds to get some shots in on Vader and the critical hit I received was "Damaged Cockpit", which makes my PS 0 starting on the next round. That's fine, but it got me to thinking, (and the wording seems vague at best), "Is Swarm Tactics mandatory?"

Meaning, do I have to do ST since I upgraded my ship(s) with it, or is it optional? The wording on ST says " At the start of the Combat phase, choose 1 friendly ship ..." I can take this to mean I have to choose a ship, and in effect, my Sabers become PS 0 as well. Or I don't have to, and only Vader remains PS 0 and the Sabers are still PS 4. I'm not sure what the correct answer is. Thought I'd ask this great community for their thoughts on this.

As it was, we played it as Vader had PS 0 and did not have to use ST as the card does not specifially say " must choose", and the Sabers remained PS 4. (Although, in typing this query out, it occured to me that the Sabers could've just chained ST back to Vader and just made him a PS 4 also. Lol, need to log more games).

Thanks in advance for your help with this!

mandatory. You must trigger swarm tactics.

same for R5K6, Determination and a few other cards here and there.

Hey guys, I did search the forums first, and I did not find the answer to the exact question I'm asking ...

link

What's more, the answer is in the rulebook. Page 19: Unless a card ability uses the word “may” or has the “Action:” or “Attack:” headers, then the ability is mandatory and must be followed.

Is Swarm Tactics mandatory once you've put that upgrade on your ship?

Swarm Tactics uses none of the three words. So using it is indeed mandatory.

Edit:

Saber with ST costs 23 points. If you just want to chain through it, I'd consider a Royal Guard Pilot with VI instead once the aces box gets released. Same cost but PS8 in his own right.

Just a note, after vader chooses a saber to be PS0, another saber could choose that same target and reset it's PS. You couldn't have the sabers override the damage card and give vader their PS for the turn, but you can fiddle with who you select so that, even though you have to select someone with vader, it ends up having no effect.

(I think I'm right about this, you did say that the sabers have Swarm Tactics as well)

Just a note, after vader chooses a saber to be PS0, another saber could choose that same target and reset it's PS. You couldn't have the sabers override the damage card and give vader their PS for the turn, but you can fiddle with who you select so that, even though you have to select someone with vader, it ends up having no effect.

(I think I'm right about this, you did say that the sabers have Swarm Tactics as well)

I'm not sure that will work.

ST does not override the damage card? You may be right. If two effects change the same thing the worst effect stands. That's a general principle derived from the FAQ about damaged engine and R2. If you apply that to ST with damaged cockpit you also have to apply the same principle when two ships use ST on the same target.

Example 1:

Saber with ST helps Vader with damaged cockpit. Two effects change the same thing, the worst result applies. Vader stays at PS0. (Vader still needs to use ST himself after that!)

Example 2:

Saber with ST and Vader with ST and damaged cockpit both use ST on the same ship. Two effects change the same thing, the worst result applies. The target ship gets PS0.

If you do not apply that general principle you can have saber with ST help Vader with damaged cockpit to PS 4.

I dont think it is a matter of the worse effect overrides a better effect, I think it is a case of a Damage Card overrides an effect from an upgrade. So you could swarm tactics vader but the damage card would reset the new pilot skill to 0, but targeting the same ship with multiple ST, I would expect them to take effect in the order they were used, so the last one used would stick.

Look at it this way, take the damage card out of the picture for a minute and say you had vader and howlrunner both with ST and 2 academy TIEs. You use Howl to give one Tie PS 8 then discover that the other Tie is out of range Vader's ST and so he has to target the same Tie as Howl. Is that Academy Tie PS 8 or 9? I would expect 9 because you did Vader last. This is the same situation. The damage card only effects Vader, once that is taken into account you just have a ship with Swarm Tactics and PS0 and other ships with Swarm Tactics and PS4 and the order you use them determines the order they take effect.

Thanks for the quick responses, guys.

Guess I should reread the rulebook from time to time.

I dont think it is a matter of the worse effect overrides a better effect, I think it is a case of a Damage Card overrides an effect from an upgrade.

This isn't what the FAQ says, though.

Q: If two or more game effects conflict in changing the difficulty of a maneuver, which effect takes priority?

A: An effect that increases the difficulty of a maneuver takes priority over an effect that decreases the difficulty.

It doesn't make any distinction about where either effect is coming from. So if we got a pilot whose ability was (for example) "All turns are red", then even if you put an R2 on that ship the turn would still be red.

So I think dvor has this correct. If a pilot is reduced to PS 0, you cannot use Swarm Tactics to improve it. Likewise, if for some reason you used Swarm from both Howlrunner and Vader on the same ship, it would end up as an 8.

but that would go against the "you can chain swarm tactics" ruling, because if we took the worst case scenario ruling, the swarm tactics would not be able to chain at all

Pilot skills start at 1 and work upwards, to imply you have a pilot skill zero is to say you don't have a pilot skill to increase.

Some abilities on cards conflict with the general rules. In case of a conflict, card text overrides the general rules. If one card ability forbids an effect, while another ability allows it, the effect is forbidden. Main rule book page twenty.

A very simple answer would be, Swarm tactics allows you to increase the pilot skill while the damage card has forbidden it.

Pilot skills start at 1 and work upwards, to imply you have a pilot skill zero is to say you don't have a pilot skill to increase.

No. 0 is a number, just like any other, and there are no special restrictions on upper or lower bounds for the legal values.

but that would go against the "you can chain swarm tactics" ruling, because if we took the worst case scenario ruling, the swarm tactics would not be able to chain at all

Not really, because there's only ever one modifying effect for each pilot in a chain. This is the same distinction that led to the R2/Daredevil ruling.

There is no "worst case wins" in X-wing. There is a precedent that when two effects modify the same thing, the worse one wins. Very different things.

Likewise, if for some reason you used Swarm from both Howlrunner and Vader on the same ship, it would end up as an 8.

That's peculiar, because in this case, both abilities 'in conflict' IMPROVE the base PS.

This is is not a case of: 'one ability decreases and the other improves, so the one that decreases prevails'... Both abilities are bonuses in this example, but it seems that you are interpreting that since one of them is a bit smaller bonus than the other, it performs as a penalty, rather than a bonus.

Pilot skills start at 1 and work upwards, to imply you have a pilot skill zero is to say you don't have a pilot skill to increase.

No. 0 is a number, just like any other, and there are no special restrictions on upper or lower bounds for the legal values.

In that case if vader had swarm tactics and a damage card reducing his pilot skill to zero, and if the above arguments about swarm tactics being mandatory then vader has to swarm someone else at zero. According to your sugestion no restrictions apply.

but that would go against the "you can chain swarm tactics" ruling, ...

That's why I am not sure about applying the damaged engine/R2 ruling to swarm tactics.

... because if we took the worst case scenario ruling, the swarm tactics would not be able to chain at all

Not worst case scenario, only worst of those effects that change something. The original unchanged value is out no matter what.

That's peculiar, because in this case, both abilities 'in conflict' IMPROVE the base PS.

This is is not a case of: 'one ability decreases and the other improves, so the one that decreases prevails'... Both abilities are bonuses in this example, but it seems that you are interpreting that since one of them is a bit smaller bonus than the other, it performs as a penalty, rather than a bonus.

The way that most players interpret it is not that "increase beats decrease" but "worse wins". There's not really anything that says firmly that it goes one way or another, it's just how the community has a whole has chosen to interpret it.

I think it's by far the more generalized (and cleaner) approach. It's easy enough to say "Worst mod wins" based on absolute value, but if you start getting into "Which is a bigger improvement?" it gets messy.

In that case if vader had swarm tactics and a damage card reducing his pilot skill to zero, and if the above arguments about swarm tactics being mandatory then vader has to swarm someone else at zero. According to your sugestion no restrictions apply.

I do think Vader has to use Swarm Tactics, because it's not optional. If he's got a Damaged Cockpit, that would mean he'd have to Swarm someone down to zero.

See the link above for the previous discussion on how to get around that, which seems to hold nicely under the rules.

That's peculiar, because in this case, both abilities 'in conflict' IMPROVE the base PS.

This is is not a case of: 'one ability decreases and the other improves, so the one that decreases prevails'... Both abilities are bonuses in this example, but it seems that you are interpreting that since one of them is a bit smaller bonus than the other, it performs as a penalty, rather than a bonus.

The way that most players interpret it is not that "increase beats decrease" but "worse wins". There's not really anything that says firmly that it goes one way or another, it's just how the community has a whole has chosen to interpret it.

I think it's by far the more generalized (and cleaner) approach. It's easy enough to say "Worst mod wins" based on absolute value, but if you start getting into "Which is a bigger improvement?" it gets messy.

Fine, I can buy that interpretation of 'worst mod wins', but I still find a problem with the subject.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe it was consensuated the Swarm Tactics had a 'timing' effect inherently built into it. Precisely because the Swarm-Chain could not exist if the upgrades were triggered simultaneously. In order to 'pass' the pilot skill to next ship, then to the next, each card could only be activated in a timely succession.

This was further justified by the rule which states that when 2+ events trigger at the same time, you choose the order of resolution. Thus, 1st could pass its PS to 2nd, then 2nd to 3rd, and so on, instead of everyone simultaneosly passing its PS to 'the ship at their right'... Because we can choose the order of resolution.

So, if we can choose the order of activation, for this particular example, Howlrunner would first modify academy pilot's PS to 8, and then Vader will further modify it to 9. However you are applying both effects simultaneosly and conceding prevalence to the 'worst'... For unknown reasons, really.

Furthermore, we can analyze the case of Howlrunner and Vader each with ST, and being both of them the only ships in range. According to the mandatory nature of ST, both pilots have to modify each other. If we follow that 'worst must prevail' interpretation, both ships would end at 8 PS... But why? Why suddenly the effects are applied simultaneously when the rules clearly states that we can choose the order of resolution?

We can simply choose to activate Vader's ST first, modify Howlrunner to 9, and then activate Howl's ST, modifying Vader to 9 (thus, no effect).

Another matter is the critical effect (damaged cockpit) vs Swarm Tactics. In that case, yes, there is a conflict between a 'bad effect' vs 'good effect', which may concede prevalence to the 'worse effect'. But in the case of chaining Swarm effects, I believe it is clear that each 'swarm step' takes full effect before passing into the next one.

This was further justified by the rule which states that when 2+ events trigger at the same time, you choose the order of resolution. Thus, 1st could pass its PS to 2nd, then 2nd to 3rd, and so on, instead of everyone simultaneosly passing its PS to 'the ship at their right'... Because we can choose the order of resolution.

So, if we can choose the order of activation, for this particular example, Howlrunner would first modify academy pilot's PS to 8, and then Vader will further modify it to 9. However you are applying both effects simultaneosly and conceding prevalence to the 'worst'... For unknown reasons, really.

Not really all that unknown if you know what the card does. Here's the key part you seem to be missing:

" Until the end of this phase ..."

All Swarm Tactics go off at the same time, which means you resolve them per appropriate ordering (initiative if both players have them choice for a player's). But that resolution creates an effect which lasts for the rest of the phase. It's not done and gone - the effect lingers. That means that if (for some strange reason) you put two Swarm Tactics on the same pilot you resolve each in order, and then you have two effects on the ship - one modifying the pilot skill to 8, one modifying it to 9. Those two effects are active at the same time, and changing the same thing, and at that point our extrapolation from the R2/Damaged Engine ruling kicks in, and the worse takes precedence.

But in the case of chaining Swarm effects, I believe it is clear that each 'swarm step' takes full effect before passing into the next one.

This is good, because I don't believe anyone has ever even suggested otherwise.

In that case if vader had swarm tactics and a damage card reducing his pilot skill to zero, and if the above arguments about swarm tactics being mandatory then vader has to swarm someone else at zero. According toalongside ngour sugestion no restrictions apply.

I do think Vader has to use Swarm Tactics, because it's not optional. If he's got a Damaged Cockpit, that would mean he'd have to Swarm someone down to zero.

See the link above for the previous discussion on how to get around that, which seems to hold nicely under the rules.

I will admit at no time do the rules explain what a friendly ship constitutes, the rules do set out a clear precedent of measuring range from one ship to another ship. If you can give me one example in the rules that allows you to measure any range from the outside off your base across your ship. I might be tempted to consider your stance on being friendly to yourself.

I will admit at no time do the rules explain what a friendly ship constitutes, the rules do set out a clear precedent of measuring range from one ship to another ship. If you can give me one example in the rules that allows you to measure any range from the outside off your base across your ship. I might be tempted to consider your stance on being friendly to yourself.

The rules say to measure from the closest point to closest point. If you're measuring range to two points which overlap, that is effectively Range 0 (there's no distance between them). You don't measure across the base - you measure from a given point to exactly that point. I believe that Range 0 should be considered to be at Range 1. If it didn't function this way, then touching a Seismic Charge when it went off would mean that you weren't damaged by it - you measure to the same point, there's no distance, so you're Range 0 rather than Range 1. As I said before, this may create a hilarious Top Secret! Grenade Effect, but even my focus on RAW thinks it's not intended.

*shrug* But really, I honestly don't care what you're tempted to consider or not. It's a relatively elegant solution to what is almost certainly an oversight on FFG's part. It seems to be generally accepted by most people not trying to make trouble for its own sake or take potshots at me.

Send it to FFG, and be sure to post the response with all formatting removed to make it as hard to read as possible. Until then, it's between you and your opponent.

There is no such thing as range zero you have invented a term.

You have overlapping and ranage one. Off course if your overlapping a seismic charge your going to get hit by it. Id thought that was blanttenly obvious.

Q: Some card abilities, such as “Howlrunner,” Biggs Darklighter, and Squad Leader, depend on a certain range requirement in order to take effect. From where is this range requirement measured? A: It is measured from the ship that has this ability. For example, Howlrunner’s ability affects friendly ships at Range 1 from Howlrunner’s ship

Closest point from one ship to the closest point off another ship is the precedent.

Even the FAQ says from the the ship with that has this ability as in away from the ship at ranage one.

Im not taking potshots at you personaly, im asking you to explain your argument.

But rather explain your argument you have a shot on me, blame FFG for not inventing a game with the rules how you would like them to be.

Its not an elegant solution if you start inventing or changing rules.to justify it.

You're right - I invented the Range Zero term because it's the easiest way to explain it. The problem is that we're not measuring from closest point of ship A to the closest point of ship B, so presenting how you measure that situation is utterly irrelevant.

You say it's blatantly obvious that you get hit by a Seismic Charge if you're overlapping it. Why? If you're touching it, you can't measure range to it, because there is no shortest path to measure - they're the same point (lots of them, actually). You're going exceedingly nitpicky on whether or not a ship can be considered within Range 1 of itself, and then happily go "Well, duh!" at the exact same situation with legal overlaps. You measure shortest distance to determine range. If you're overlapping, the shortest distance is below Range 1, so you're not at Range 1, at least by your argument.

Take a look through the abilities. Abilities which can affect other ships at a given range are almost universally tagged with "other" or "another" ship. If a ship is not at Range 1 of itself, these statements are redundant. That doesn't conclusively prove that a ship is at range 1 to itself, of course, but there's at least some evidence there that there's a need to create a distinction.

I have explained my argument. Repeatedly. Even over in the other thread that you still seem unwilling to reference, instead poking and picking and making me do it again here. The vast majority of the community seems content with the concept. If you can't follow it at this point, or would rather try and force your opponent into a nonstandard reading of Swarm Tactics, it's on you.

This was further justified by the rule which states that when 2+ events trigger at the same time, you choose the order of resolution. Thus, 1st could pass its PS to 2nd, then 2nd to 3rd, and so on, instead of everyone simultaneosly passing its PS to 'the ship at their right'... Because we can choose the order of resolution.

So, if we can choose the order of activation, for this particular example, Howlrunner would first modify academy pilot's PS to 8, and then Vader will further modify it to 9. However you are applying both effects simultaneosly and conceding prevalence to the 'worst'... For unknown reasons, really.

Not really all that unknown if you know what the card does. Here's the key part you seem to be missing:

" Until the end of this phase ..."

All Swarm Tactics go off at the same time, which means you resolve them per appropriate ordering (initiative if both players have them choice for a player's). But that resolution creates an effect which lasts for the rest of the phase. It's not done and gone - the effect lingers. That means that if (for some strange reason) you put two Swarm Tactics on the same pilot you resolve each in order, and then you have two effects on the ship - one modifying the pilot skill to 8, one modifying it to 9. Those two effects are active at the same time, and changing the same thing, and at that point our extrapolation from the R2/Damaged Engine ruling kicks in, and the worse takes precedence.

Frankly, I don't see the difference between 'until the end of the phase' or 'until the end of the game' or 'until someone comes and modify it again'.

In every case, modifying a value will always be a 'lingering' effect. Even receiving a damage card would be a 'lingering effect' more evidenced by the fact that we can equip an R5-D8 unit and 'undo' the damage, restoring the value to its original status.

Note that by your interpretation, if Krassix fires a secondary weapon (reroll 1 dice) while Cpt. Jonus is in in range (reroll 2 dice), our beloved pirate could only reroll one single dice. Because his own ability is a "worse" effect than the Jonus' one, and the "worst effect must prevail". Also, if a ship is dealt a 'Structural damage' card (-1 Agility), even if he uses R2-F2 (+1 agility), he will end losing 1 agility anyways, because having two lingering effects that modify 'agility value' operating at the same time, we should always choose the "worst".

However, that's not how the community resolve those effects, isn't it?

It is consensuated that some abilites simply 'stack' (Jonus+Krassix) or 'overwrite' (Veteran instincts+Swarm tactics) or simply 'both work at the same time' (R2-F2+Estructural damage).

That rule of 'choose the worst effect' is a nothing more that a theoretical extension of two rules that have been tailored to fit two specific situations:

- One effect that allows vs one effect that forbids [Core rulebook]

- One effect that increases maneuver difficulty vs one effect that decreases maneuver difficulty [FAQ]

However, I consider inherently dangerous to formulate a "rule for all situations" from those specific rules. Even more so taking into account that we have precedents that 2 simultaneous effects not always force a 'choose one' situation.

In this very case, I consider that Swarm tactics is an 'overwrite' type of effect. Each use of a 'Swarm tactics' card, thus, overwrites the previous PS value found on the ship. It works that way with its interaction with 'Veteran Instinct', and I don't see why it shouldn't work in the same way with any previous modification of the PS value, inlcuding another swarm tactics card.

Which leads me to think, that if a ship receives a 'damaged cockpit card' it would also perform as an 'overwrite' of a previous value (including veteran instincts). And a later use of Swarm Tactics MAY again overwrite the previous '0' value, albeit temporarily.

Nothing truly prevents that, other than the "you must choose worst effect" 'rule' wich is really nothing more than a theoretical formulation that may or may not apply to each specific situation, as we saw in the previous examples. Because in the case of 'Damaged cockpit' vs 'Swarm tactics' nothing is "prohibiting" nor "allowing" anything... And pilot skill isn't related either to maneuvers and their difficulty.

Edit: Some typos

Could an ST upgraded Vader, who's been afflicted with PS0 from Damaged cockpit choose… his own ship to pass the PS0 to?

It's certainly a friendly ship within range one…

And the card text does not say "other" or "another"…