Hello. I wanna ask people proficient with Lord of the Rings lore a question, because I am not.

Were all orcs of the LotR evil, malign savages?

Why am I asking: In other fantasy universes it's a common practice of someone from the by-default-malign race to think otherwise, ultimately abandoning his people and stuff. Shining example: Drizzt of the Forgotten Realms. He is a drow, drow are sadistic, unforgiving killers who knows no doubt or mercy. He is complete opposite.

So, once again: Is there ever existed an orc/goblin/uruk/troll/etc who didn't felt like killing and tearing apart every human, elf or dwarf being in his reach? If no, coult there possibly be one or there are thematic lore reasons why orcs can never be "good"? Thanks.

In short: yes. All corrupted race since it's existence.

Edit: as far as I know.

According to the Silmarillion, Orcs were created by Melkor during the time of the Great Darkness "by breeding Elves he had captured and corrupted, by means of torture and mutilation". No space for light in those bleak hearts.

One would argue that if suffered plenty would do anything to prevent that suffering from being inflicted to someone else.

For a second I thought Saruman himself had started this post... It's a dangerous line of thought to head down....

ha ha

It does seem strange to us, these days, to have such a "black and white" morality in a story. However, there are other great examples of characters who can choose their fate or their morality in the story. Grima, Saruman, Denethor, Theoden, etc.

The point that the orcs do bring up is that nothing is evil from the beginning. In their case they didn't necessarily choose to be evil but evil was done to them. There are many in real life who have something evil done to them early in life and are forever sent down a tragic road.

I always remember Gandalf's quote during the Last Debate: "For myself, I pity even his [sauron's] servants."

For a second I thought Saruman himself had started this post...

Who knows, might aswell be...

It's just, as you may have noticed if you read my other posts on the forum, I'm big on forgiveness and understanding (I was almost the only guy who hoped for Grima to be the second hero, after the Eomer got announced), and I thought on a common scenario of orc/uruk raid party preparing another assault on nearest man settlement... and one of them, as a result, say, of Saruman putting to much effort in his mental capabilities, feeling unusal for orc feelings: doubt, remorse, pity, guilt. And while no one can see him, he slips away and goes unarmed into this settlement, surrendering himself and hoping he'll be able to warn them of the attack before they kill him on sight. Ending up as a prisoner and as a result saving the entire settlement by warning them and even couple of lives himself during the assault. Ah, sweet dreams.

It's a really interesting topic. Orcs are definitely pretty evil down to the last orc as depicted in Tolkien's works. However, later in Tolkien's life, he actually expressed regret that he had made them this way, and I think if he had had more time to create more stories, he just might have introduced some redemption for them.

I was talking about a lore rohan hero early, quick to agree on Grima.

I thinkt he real thing is that Tolkien wrote stories that had very simple characters to put in his very complex world. Sauron is bad because he's the bad guy and we gotta stop him, that sorta stuff. Grima is probably the most interesting character, he's the only guy I'm aware of that actually had reason to go bad. Orcs are super evil, elves are paragons of good, I always found it hard to care about the characters as much as the setting.

I think what a lot of modern readers miss is that Tolkien wasn't aiming to make a character drama or complex character study, which is what we're used to in contemporary fiction. He was aiming to create a mythology, which is marked by conflict between clear good and evil. At the same time, and at the risk of contradicting myself, there are a ton of fairly complex characters in the non-LOTR stuff (Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, etc.)

Edit: From a more practical perspective and going back to the orcs, I think he just needed a bunch of generic baddies that you won't feel bad about when they get their heads lopped off, kind of like the robot foot soldiers in old TMNT cartoons

I think what a lot of modern readers miss is that Tolkien wasn't aiming to make a character drama or complex character study, which is what we're used to in contemporary fiction. He was aiming to create a mythology, which is marked by conflict between clear good and evil. At the same time, and at the risk of contradicting myself, there are a ton of fairly complex characters in the non-LOTR stuff (Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, etc.)

Edit: From a more practical perspective and going back to the orcs, I think he just needed a bunch of generic baddies that you won't feel bad about when they get their heads lopped off, kind of like the robot foot soldiers in old TMNT cartoons

This is true. There were dodgy elves & dwarves in the silmarillion.

The dwarves were only lightly told about here and there, yet about the elves there are quite a few chapters with really bad elves.

Mostly this behavior came from evil oaths of greed, jealousy in love, or pride.

It always bugged me how incompetent those robot foot soldiers were. Complex characters are not a thing of modern fiction. I honestly just don't think the LOTR trilogy made for good fiction. The imagination was profound, but had such a horrible dryness and pacing with little narrative depth. It's the great synthesis of his work into games, movies, and other fiction that draws me in, not the books themselves. So for the subject at hand, I agree, the orcs were tools for conflict, not meant to be a culture to be considered. I think this is a problem for me though, conflict for conflict's sake gets old. I think there's the famous case that is guaranteed to make a D&D game fall apart: the team wipes out a town of Hobgoblins, and finds a bunch of children hobgoblins. What do you do? The lore and the books are extremely clear that every goblin and hobgoblin is evil, so there's no innocence of youth, but this clashes with our own sense of the subject. The team gets totally locked up in argument.

It's deep into tangent territory, I know, sorry. It just always bugged me that Sauron didn't seem to have a goal or purpose. It could be that it is explored more in the Silmarillion, but I think from my understanding it just shifted the blame to a new generic jerk Melkor. I'd be happier with something like "Sauron is sick of the persecution against his people the orcs, and sees the squabbling and conflict between elves and dwarves, and a complete isolation from opening trade to his closer neighbors the southrons who are directly connected to him with no mountain barrier. He wants a better way, and can bolster his own people's economies faster through an iron facist hand." I know it's absurdly overthinking it, but I dunno, you can't have anything just pure evil for evil's sake like an entire race of orcs.

Oh, another thought, and then my coffee break is over:

I don't remember if this little bit is in the book, but I did like Faramir's musing over a dead Haradrim over who he was, what his sense of duty was like, etc etc. Very nice touch for one the best characters.

Yeah, I'm not saying that complex characters are a modern invention, I'm saying that modern readers have come to expect that in every work, and immediately dismiss those that have different goals. I personally love Tolkien's writing and works, while people that I know and respect absolutely hate them, so it's all a matter of taste. I personally think LOTR is great fiction, with tons of depth and countless ideas to explore.

Anyway, as for Sauron, there's not a ton about his goals, but he was said to be a Maiar who was devoted to the idea of order. So his motivation, at least to me, it's not just evil for evil's sake but a desire to order things in the world to his liking. In fact, Saruman is very similar to him in this regard. Saruman's speech to Gandalf about the Wise ruling those stupid masses for their own benefit is a good example of this line of thinking, which I think is what drives Sauron as well. I think pride is also a major theme in Tolkien's works, and Sauron, like Melkor, believes the forces of "good" are just slaves of the Valar and Illuvatar, while he at least is master of himself.

Ah! So it is probably correct to think in terms of fascism then, which was recent to the writing very relevant, but after the war when fascism had become a bad word. Very harsh, then, to judge the people under a fascist, as the orcs would not have a say in the political or military motives of their leaders. Poor things, when Aragorn approaches the black gate, the mouth of Sauron appears all like "well ok, we had some ups and downs, but before this war escalates further, let's talk it out ok?" Oh but no, they'd rather throw that ring in the mountain to destabilize the central government system and complete their brutal fight against he orcs once and for all. No room for resources to a people in a completely desolate region, free of natural resources, unless you count ash as a natural resource. Only room for prejudice in the hearts of these free men.

Well, going back to the topic of orcs, Rich wrote a really good article about it on his Tolkien blog:

http://tolkienology.weebly.com/1/category/origin%20of%20orcs/1.html

Not sure if it answers the question of whether they're all bad or not, but it does clarify some things about where they came from.

Well, going back to the topic of orcs, Rich wrote a really good article about it on his Tolkien blog:

http://tolkienology.weebly.com/1/category/origin%20of%20orcs/1.html

Not sure if it answers the question of whether they're all bad or not, but it does clarify some things about where they came from.

Taking this off track again, whatever happened to rich? He used to post a lot on this forum.

Probably got tired of us.

Everything that Ian said. Plus Rich's post.

One scene that, I think, illuminates the orcs a little is when Sam (with the Ring on) is following Gorbag and Shagrat into Cirith Ungol. They reminisce about the good old days and talk about settling down into a nice, cozy pillaging operation once all is said and done. Like Narsil said, Gandalf pitied the servants of Sauron, and these orcs seemed to want to move out of life in his service. It's a little glimpse, but it shows that they are more than just mindless hordes of critters there to be killed.

The thing you need to recognize about Tolkien is that he is not a "author" in the traditional sense. He is a literary scholar. In fact there are strong arguments that he sucked massively at writing "novels".. one of the things he sucked at was creating depth from motivation among his characters.

Orcs are evil, and do what they do because they are evil. That is the entire depth and breath of the motivation given to a ton of characters in LoTR. Even some of the light side characters are no deeper. We know nothing about the Dark Lord apart form the fact he is a tyrant and evil and wants more power. To give you an example this is the same depth of character that Megatron has in the Transformers cartoon form the 80s.

Simply put there is no information about the orcs or there civilization or why they do the things they do.. witch is a real pity. Tolkien was great at histories and copying / inspired by the epic poems like the Völuspá or Kalevala. These being mythical teachings are also similarly black and white about good and evil as is his work.

To answer your question.. Yes .. all orcs are evil... Why?... because they are orcs.

Whatever happened to rich? He used to post a lot on this forum

I spoke to him recently, he has some RL stuff getting in the way of gaming but said he would be back once he got the new expansions. I expect he will pop in soonish... though I am guessing here.. he is probably like many of the original players, simply not into buying a pack every second it comes out, getting them at a more leisurely pace and avoiding the forums to avoid all the spoilers and deck ideas.

I'm reading the plot text in voice of isengard, we're playing it the first time this afternoon, and these people are HORRIBLE to their prisoner. I mean, I know there's no Geneva Convention, but did Saruman OK this abusive situation? And the heroes were so pumped to go hunt an orc before Saruman even finishes the story! What monsters.