Has anyone successfully worked the Fallen into any of their games? I've got a player with a Dark Angels Techmarine and I really want to give him some trails to chase. Anyone have good suggestions for this?

I've been wondering about that myself. How much information about the Fallen is there? I don't own any Dark Angels Codexes ( Codecies ?), so I don't know much about them. Is there much official lore to call upon...?

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Fallen_Angels

The most important thing is to not have them randomly appear. It's just too unlikely and therefore not believable (appears to be set-up by the GM). If they encounter any Fallen, it must have had long preparation with multiple hints and possibly false trails, etc.

Also, the Fallen should come across as special. What did the Fallen do since he emerged from the war? They certainly are not involved in something small-scale; they should have rosen to some position of power. Maybe even play a key role somewhere for the Crusade. Have friends in high places (either Imperial and/or Chaos or even Tau/Eldar).

The worst staging I could imagine is just taking the stats of a Chaos Marine and plugging it into some encounter. That would be just thoughtless.

Alex

I agree a fallen shouldn’t be an off the cuff side trek adventure.

First figure out the motivation of the this particular fallen. Was he jealous he was passed over, stuck on Caliban while the rest of the Legion gained glory in the Great Crusade?

Did he see the falseness of Lion ‘El Johnson and the greatness of Luther?

Did he weep for the world of Caliban as it was stripmined for the Empire?

That will largely determine what this space marine has been doing for the past 10,000 years (or whatever amount he has experienced).

Some might have become great leaders bent on fighting the perfidious Imperium. Others are lone wanderers, seeking absolution or just mourning the death of their home world. Some have even re-integrated in Imperial society, hiding their super enhanced abilities….

There is a ton of information available on the interwebs about the fallen and the dark angels. Most importantly, a regular joe marine wouldn’t know anything about it! He could be kicked in the ass by one and not know what hit him!

So lead your player into it.

For example, have Dark Angel HQ order him to investigate a story about some super human feat of strength by a mysterious wanderer. Locals can confirm the stranger helped little Timmy escape from the well using incredible strength. After sending his report, he might be ordered to find this stranger’s location or such.

And eventually, a few DA marines appear, tell him to mind his own business and fly off…..And never return. Dark Angel HQ order him to investigate quickly and he finds them dead and stripped. (Cause the fallen was prepared for any DA to show up as they tend to do that….).

Now the player knows something is up and the DA might fill him in (a bit) about a renegade DA marine or he can try to avenge the deaths of his fellow marines even if they were dicks and didn’t tell him anything.

One my players is playing a Fallen. It's going pretty well so far. We played a one shot set duirng the final minutes of the fall of Caliban and him being whisked through time. We've then worked together to come up with the kinds of things he has been doing in the meantime and how he came to pledge himself to the Deathwatch as a blackshield and he is going about covering himself.

Little does the PC know however that the remains of his old Company led by his old Captain and the scions of the Lion are both looking for him. There is gonna be a reckoning!

I really like the idea of a Fallen player. This could be really funny with another player who's actually a Dark Angel.

I also never thought about letting players go for blackshields... that might lead to a lot of suspicion in the KT. Very nice idea, will announce that in our next session.

I really like the idea of a Fallen player. This could be really funny with another player who's actually a Dark Angel.

I also never thought about letting players go for blackshields... that might lead to a lot of suspicion in the KT. Very nice idea, will announce that in our next session.

There is an account of a blackshield watch Commander that heavily implies he was a Fallen.

Awesome ideas here. Thanks!

Oh btw I am going to end one session with a significant number of the 'Angels of Confession' A custom Dark Angels successor Chapter advancing on the PCs position and play this song

Some how seems appropriate.

How does a player accurately portray a Fallen with chargen levels of experience (and really - lack thereof)? I dunno, that's just my impression is that Fallen should have experience on the level of Chapter Masters, if lacking the organizational support.

How does a player accurately portray a Fallen with chargen levels of experience (and really - lack thereof)? I dunno, that's just my impression is that Fallen should have experience on the level of Chapter Masters, if lacking the organizational support.

Good question and one we have discussed amongst ourselves.

We resolved it in a couple of ways

1. The campaign began with all the PCs having a certain level of experience already.

2. The PC in question began with slightly more experience because of the one shot adventure we played (nothing unbalanced)

3. We figured (and I agree this is debatable) but many of the Fallen were stationed on Caliban for a long time and maybe weren't that combat experienced. Not being allowed to take part in the glories of the Great crusade is perhaps one of the reason why they rebelled afterall Therefore they aren't necessarily like, say, Chaos Marines who fought across the galaxy as part of the Great Crusade, and then fought the Horus Heresy and now have been fighting the Long War. Potentially a Fallen could have been inducted on Terra, fought a couple of engagements. Be stationed on Caliban for the remainder of the Great Crusade and then whisked away to the 41st millenium.

4. The classic amnesia. The PC in question doesn't fully remember what he has done since Caliban. He has vauge recollections of being a prisoner, and fighting wars alongside others of his kind as well as human mercenaries but when he 'woke up' he was a captive of the dark eldar of all things. He doesn't even have his original armour instead procuring a suit of Mk7 Dark Angel armour (long story). Therefore rules wise some of his experience points are actually spent on 'remembering' skills and talents he previously had.

5. I am not sure Fallen would necessarily be Grand Master level. I've always rated them as veterans.

You can always rely on NPC Dark Angel Epistolary Zadkiel from the Jericho Reach supplement, p. 20. for plot hooks. A Deathwing veteran in the Deathwatch is perfect for relaying orders and assigning secret objectives, not to mention throwing his weight in to have the Kill-Team sent to some place of interest.

As for the experience angle, every other Black Library novel focussing on Chaos drops hints how ten millennia in the Warp feels like no more than a few centuries have passed, so a Fallen needs not be a Chapter Master Dante-level fighter. Some more experience than a thin-blooded pup - absolutely, but at the price of a seriously messed-up head. The amnesia thing in this sense is actually quite clever. Huh.

Didn't they also get thrown through time? If so, it can have been only a few years or decades since he arrived after the fall of Caliban.

Deathwatch characters are already supposed to be fairly experienced marines- generally not neophytes fresh into the armour as I understand it, perceived lack of experience notwithstanding.

You want to rationalize their resourcefulness and ability to operate without support? Let them be both Black Shields and Kill-marines. Alternatively, treat them as standard Dark Angels who just happen to have a Black Shield, then make them Kill-marines.

Interestingly I am not sure I have seen stats for 'generic' newish marines.

I would suspect that their stats wouldn't blow you away at first glance but when you consider that they would all be getting the benefits of being in full sized squads with vehicle support, probably orbital support and the benefits of all being able to use Squd Mode Abilities then a squad of 'new' marines could really do some damage.

And it would really put how good the PCs starter characters with 1000exps to spend and fatepoints actually are.

I think it can be easy playing Marine to get blaise about how good they actually are. The basic issue equipment makes them really formidable against anything bare the nastiest critters in the galaxy. Trouble is the Deathwatch are called in near exclusively to face the nastiest critters in the galaxy.

Point is a Fallen may or may not be a veteran but a rank 3+ marine could certainly represent a fairly experienced Fallen with ranks 5+ will make do for the really horrific examples.

The RPG community has no shortage of people who can justify and rationalize playing a dragon.

You seem to disapprove, Knight.

:shrug: People're gonna play what they want to play (and what their GM will let them get away with).

You can scowl disapprovingly or you can make suggestions that might help things work in a way that is both functional and internally consistent. Actually, suggesting that it's odd to want to play the Grimdark option in the Grimdark future where there is only Grimdark seems like high ironic comedy to me.

I played a Dragon in Rifts, it was fun!

Okay, it was a Hatchling. But still fun!

Alex

Games break for many reasons Annaamarth. One of the common reasons is that players grow bored and/or frustrated playing with "that guy." So yes, I disapprove of "him." Someone wanting to play the Fallen smacks of "that guy." I thought that was implicit.

I advise avoiding such a situation anytime anyone asks. Those characters are best handled by a very experienced group; a group experienced in 40k lore, deathwatch rules (or whatever specific system is used), and rpg's in general. When you have all those things going for you, you don't come onto these forums and ask strangers what they think about it. Hence, anyone coming to here to ask advice about non-conventional characters will nearly always get a thumbs down from me.

And I've been pretty consistent about that in my past posts.

That's fair. Rather than avoiding it entirely, I prefer to use a firm hand.

That said, while my initial response to your perspective was an internal "that's odd" followed by a small smile when I noticed the irony, but from the perspective that it's a bad idea from a rookie player/group standpoint it makes a lot of sense.

Usually when someone comes here to ask about how to handle a certain character because that character is breaking their game, my gut response is, "kill their character." It's almost always the GM that let the situation happen in the first place. If you create a Godzilla, it's your place to handle the Godzilla problem, and not that of the other characters, though I've certainly played in many games where the GM left that up to us, the players. I never appreciate it when the GM sloughs their responsibility on us. I didn't create the problem and I shouldn't have to fix it.

Most rules systems are pretty well play-tested. The rules exist for a reason. They give all the players and the GM a social contract from which to build a story. Now don't get me wrong, I'm from back in the day when role-playing games started. My oldest set pre-dates D&D and it's all of 2 pages long. I'm all into GM license to ad lib. That's all we had back then.

Still, experience has taught me to master the rules before judging them the problem and house-ruling to fix them, and that's the beauty of these forums and others like them. If something is breaking my game I can come here to ask others if they have the same experience of the same rules. It's not just the broken rules, either; I more often ask about rules that are tedious, boring, or just don't give my game the atmosphere I'm looking for. Just like our players often find that one solution we hadn't considered when drawing up our adventures, so do other GMs have players that met a similar situation and can give me an insight I hadn't viewed before.

And so you haven't seen the last of my, "just kill 'em" responses. You might lose a player. I have before. That was my fault. I own it. Most come back after their ire wears off. We have a few beers and laugh. I don't make that mistake again.

Most of us want an epic story and we come up with some really crazy epic plots. We usually don't have to. If we, as GMs stick to the small stuff our players will take care of the rest. They are the ones that come up with the really epic stuff and if we occasionally let them run with their ideas, but not to the sacrifice of a common rules set, then we end up with a really memorable gaming experience. And I'm speaking from over 4 decades of RPG experience.

To get back to the OP, if I were going to introduce the Fallen, I'd probably never even get around to drawing them up. They'd be the person in the background pulling all the strings. It's unlikely the game would go on long enough for the players to eventually encounter the Fallen. But, if the game did go on that long (only the best games do), then I'd certainly consider fleshing that person out for the final chapter of that novel.

I would never, however, let a person play one. That's introducing EPIC before the game ever starts, and that's a sure recipe to draw game-ending envy from other players, not to mention accusations of favoritism, probably well-founded. I'd never search for justifications and rationalizations for why the player-character wasn't EPIC. And, I'm advising anyone else to do the same...from experience.

Re: introducing Fallen; it doesn't have to be EPIC from the get go. He could have repented, hence my idea of using him as a Black Shield. The Fallen aren't a monolithic organization or uniform- they can't be, after having been scattered across time and space.

Allow me, for a moment, to take this along what I feel is a logical chain of events and assumptions. This is just a thought experiment, so feel free to discount it out of hand as such- I won't be offended in this case

A relatively junior Fallen, tossed through the warp along with the rest, happens to show up in the middle of a mission being carried out by a Deathwatch Killteam. This Killteam has no Dark Angels/successors in it. They know nothing about him other than the fact that he wears the ancient colours of the Dark Angels, from before the Heresy, and that he seems distraught. This marine surrenders to them (possibly before or after assisting them in their mission, which is completely unrelated). They take him captive and rigorously test him for taint- miraculously, he seems no more tainted than your average Black Templar, Salamander or Blood Angel.

Now let's assume the the Watch Captain is A) a Space Wolf who has a bit of a mad-on for Dark Angels and B) has been able to put some pieces together vis-a-vis the Dark Angels' odd behavior. So, just to quietly tweak their collective noses on the side, he offers the Fallen the standard Black Shield deal.

If the player is playing this Fallen straight (which would be the preference in this case) and you assume that he really is free of taint, then the only real plot arc you have is- don't get caught by the Dark Angels. But he's a Black Shield, so... the chances of them being able to peg him as Fallen are slim to none.

Actually, you do have the plot arc of running into other Fallen, and giving this guy to meet, greet and murder old comrades, but that's not substantially different from standard Dark Angel behaviour... except that the Fallen won't feel the urge to contact the Inner Circle and conceal things from the Deathwatch.

Regarding the character himself, I'd treat him as a standard character with the Black Shield background. I did assume that he was a relative rookie, and I'd figure that his long period of testing and hypno-indoctrination would be what gave him access to the Deathwatch Training stuff. Otherwise, pretty much a standard Dark Angel.

You also have the opportunity to have the Wolf Watch Captain do something with his new knowledge regarding the Dark Angels, but it's just as likely that he won't- for one reason or another. He's being run by the GM after all.

Now, if you said that this was contrived, I'd agree without a doubt. However, the funny thing about dealing with 40k (and Warp stuff in general) is that contrivances can and do happen. I am more curious as to whether you would find this idea completely without merit, if the contrivance of it all were overlooked? The proposed character has no special bonus, and so long as his origin is concealed from the Dark Angels, there is no particular hook there. The GM has the freedom to use, or not, his background as much as possible. Meanwhile, the character has a Sword of Damocles over his head in that if he ever reveals his background to anyone else, he is sure to be annihilated by both the Deathwatch and the Dark Angels. Heck, the DW might just turn him over to the DA and say "here, we found this. I think it belongs to you." Written this way, I don't think he has any more or less inherent plot-deviceness than any other Dark Angel.

What do you think?

Edit: oh, and to be absolutely clear- I in no way object to the "just kill 'em" method of eliminating problems. Because problems should be eliminated- ruthlessly- and giving players room to pull shenanigans like this does make room for potential problems. Lascannon make such excellent sniper weapons.

Annaamarth, you have come up with an ALMOST plausible storyline. I'm guessing you are exactly the experienced sort of gamer that could pull this off without inciting all the other players in the game. That's key. In this case, I MIGHT allow such a thing. Of course, you'd have to come with a good story about how the character had been around for 10k years without being EPIC. Yes, I think you could do it. I hope you could do it without a stereotypical contrivance. Mind you, I love it when people roleplay stereotypes. I just don't like worn out rationalizations.

Of course, I have to wonder if the time spent couldn't have generated a more colorful character of a more traditional bent.

And let's face it, the vast majority of people who go after this same story line do it for entirely different reasons, and it's all about power gaming. Rogue Trader lends itself well to power gaming, but it still won't work if the player in question in trying to gain power over their fellow gamers.

Edit: I signed up for roll20 maybe a year ago. I've played with it off and on during this time. Our recent experience in it together has inspired me to spend more time trying to learn it. I want to master it more before jumping in. I hope to run something there sometime, probably with Rogue Trader. If I get that far I hope you join in. I could say the same of others I see see posting here often.

tl; dr = PCs don't have a right to have the same power level as the next guy. They do have a right to fill a sufficient number of niches - so that gameplay does not get boring.

Usually when someone comes here to ask about how to handle a certain character because that character is breaking their game, my gut response is, "kill their character." It's almost always the GM that let the situation happen in the first place. If you create a Godzilla, it's your place to handle the Godzilla problem, and not that of the other characters, though I've certainly played in many games where the GM left that up to us, the players. I never appreciate it when the GM sloughs their responsibility on us. I didn't create the problem and I shouldn't have to fix it.

Rookie GMs are concerned whether one or more PCs might get too powerful for their NPCs. But these can be scaled up easily. More experienced GMs are concerned about inner-party balance because with an imabalanced party ramping up the NPC power levels can cause huge problems for the weaker PCs. So basically I get your approach. But...

Most rules systems are pretty well play-tested. The rules exist for a reason.

It's a bit ironic to say this in the Deathwatch forum as the Core Rulebook is basically pretty shoddy rules-wise. Sure, there are only a handful of rules that cause these enormous problems but still.

Still, experience has taught me to master the rules before judging them the problem and house-ruling to fix them, and that's the beauty of these forums and others like them. If something is breaking my game I can come here to ask others if they have the same experience of the same rules. It's not just the broken rules, either; I more often ask about rules that are tedious, boring, or just don't give my game the atmosphere I'm looking for. Just like our players often find that one solution we hadn't considered when drawing up our adventures, so do other GMs have players that met a similar situation and can give me an insight I hadn't viewed before.

I have been playing 30 years now and I see it totally differently. Whenever I get a new system, I start house ruling it from day 1. In Deathwatch's case? Righteous Fury rules. Jesus!

And so you haven't seen the last of my, "just kill 'em" responses. You might lose a player. I have before. That was my fault. I own it. Most come back after their ire wears off. We have a few beers and laugh. I don't make that mistake again.

Most of us want an epic story and we come up with some really crazy epic plots. We usually don't have to. If we, as GMs stick to the small stuff our players will take care of the rest. They are the ones that come up with the really epic stuff and if we occasionally let them run with their ideas, but not to the sacrifice of a common rules set, then we end up with a really memorable gaming experience. And I'm speaking from over 4 decades of RPG experience.

To get back to the OP, if I were going to introduce the Fallen, I'd probably never even get around to drawing them up. They'd be the person in the background pulling all the strings. It's unlikely the game would go on long enough for the players to eventually encounter the Fallen. But, if the game did go on that long (only the best games do), then I'd certainly consider fleshing that person out for the final chapter of that novel.

I would never, however, let a person play one. That's introducing EPIC before the game ever starts, and that's a sure recipe to draw game-ending envy from other players, not to mention accusations of favoritism, probably well-founded. I'd never search for justifications and rationalizations for why the player-character wasn't EPIC. And, I'm advising anyone else to do the same...from experience.

I think you should have spent more time playing Rifts RPG in those 4 decades. I mean, Glitter Boys and Pixies in one group. Now that's what I call party imbalance.

It can work. If...

a) all the players have no problem with such huge imbalances. (Indeed for us it has caused some of the usually more combat-inclined players to focus on role-playing and it was good fun.)

b) the GM ensures every PC has their niche. (The Glitter Boy handles combat, the Pixie perhaps stealth and social interactions.)

So, I could see myself allowing a Fallen Blackshield. I really dislike it when players look at other characters and go "Oh, this is favoritism, he's so much better than my PC, totally unfair!" Especially over the most miniscule of differences. This is "Erbsenzählerei". My next mission (the Space Hulk one) is basically a mission set-up for and by one of my PCs, as part of the hunt for a Fallen. Is that favoritism? Is it just the result of my inspiration?

And let's face it, the vast majority of people who go after this same story line do it for entirely different reasons, and it's all about power gaming. Rogue Trader lends itself well to power gaming, but it still won't work if the player in question in trying to gain power over their fellow gamers.

As a sidenote, to me Deathwatch is about powergaming. In Deathwatch, I encourage it and I plan to reward a PC with 1 or 2 renown points for every game-breaking combo their player finds - as compensation for me plugging the hole swiftly. And if it's not totally OP, I might even allow the loop hole to exist for a session/mission - depending on severity. The players play Adeptus Astartes, superhuman soldiers who try to maximize their combat output all day long... so let them have at it. Let them hone their skills. I am very well-versed in the Deathwatch system so I don't expect to have to hand-out much renown here.

Alex

For my part I've been GMing Warhammer40K stuff for too long.

So I'm embarking on one last mammoth EPIC campaign that will tie in all the different game systems. The primary focus is Deathwatch and the players know from the start it is going to be the definitive campaign so the group can move away from WH40K and say 'yes we played that.... hell did we play that'

So yeah the PCs know it is going to be EPIC and one of them is indeed playing a Fallen (the other PCs don't know this though). But then one of the PCs unbeknownst to the rest of the group has discovered a working SDT so the stakes are already high.....