Hi all,

as you might have read in my other thread ( http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/100057-beginners-game-npc-threat-ratings/ ) my players worked really, REALLY hard to get themselves killed in the Beginner Game adventure. Twice.

Now, as much as I love offing PCs as the next GM (probably not at all), my players like their characters and I like them as well. So I am giving them a new lease on life.

However, in order to prevent delusions of grandeur and/or immortality, I want to punish them. Here is where I need your ideas - what would YOU do?

(Needless to say the next adventure "Second Chance" will have them start in VERY dire situations: Oskara will be sold into slavery and face **** at the hands of some slimy Gran, Lowhhrick gets tossed into a gauntlet with a deadly shockband around his throat - ending in him facing a rancor, and 41-VEX will become Trex personal service droid, enjoying the perks of an inhibition bolt.)

My ideas so far are:

* Make them use 5 XP from the 20 they got for the adventure to buy a very narrow skill that's used with importance in the next adventure (for example Dancing for Oskara or Foraging for Lowhhrick)

* Just lower the XP to 15 instead of the 20

* Give them an Obligation: The Force which can only be removed by doing good deeds? Haven't thought too much about this.

I need y'all's creativity.

I'm not really into punishments in a game. Consequences are fine, even character death and making new characters, but punitive measures don't seem appropriate in a game.

So, from what it sound like, they get themselves all knocked out again the second time (after starting back from the beginning), and now you're continuing on from it. It depends on where/how they were taken out, but I've got a handful of suggestions:

Imperials got them: They're taken to the local jail, stripped of weapons (which can be stored in a nearby locker once they break out of their cell), and need to continue their quest off the planet if they still have Trex's ship part - since he very well can't leave without it.

Teemo got them: Teemo brings them, maybe tortures them for a bit - not to far off from what you mentioned - Lowhhrick fights things (but probably not a rancor), Oskara forced to dance, 41-Vex to serve as translator/ waiter. Then after a couple days of this, they get the chance to escape, and like before, can try to get off the planet if they have Trex's part.

Trex got them: They're in Trex's cages and he starts flying off since he has his part now. At this point you can give them a chance to break free - perhaps Trex takes Lowhhrick out of his cage with a droid guard by his side to skin him for his Wookie fur, which gives Lowhhrick the opportunity to flip the switch to unlock the other cages. Then you can just segue into Long Arm of the Hutt if they take the hook from B'ura B'an, or just do whatever if they decide to ignore or kill him.

Hey Lathrop,

thanks for your reply! I have the next adventure already mapped out, that's not really the problem. What I want is find some way to ingrain into the players(!) the costs of me saving them from a certain death situation - for example when all are KO'ed and facing enemies that have no desire to take them alive.

I want my players to feel the cost of being "resurrected" - so to speak. And for that I am looking for inspiration beyond what I wrote above - reducing their XP taken or giving them more obligation (or at least what kind you might find suitable).

It goes without saying that they're stripped of all of their belongings. ^^

You said this...

I think I'll just need to have a talk with them about how violence is not necessarily always the best option.

....then this...

(Needless to say the next adventure "Second Chance" will have them start in VERY dire situations: Oskara will be sold into slavery and face **** at the hands of some slimy Gran, Lowhhrick gets tossed into a gauntlet with a deadly shockband around his throat - ending in him facing a rancor, and 41-VEX will become Trex personal service droid, enjoying the perks of an inhibition bolt.)

...which concerns me. What "****" is also greatly concerns me. To each his own though I suppose.

If you are truely concerned about your players using violence and getting their characters killed I wouldn't be putting them in situations such as, "DEADLY shockband around his throat....facing a RANCOR". Sorry, but it sounds more like a case of a GM who is using his creative mind to see what cool and deadly things he can come up with instead of what cool and interesting adventures he can come up with. That will quickly end player interest since, "I wonder in what horrible way Mike is going to kill us tonight?", will be fun at first but quickly turn boring.

You said this...

I think I'll just need to have a talk with them about how violence is not necessarily always the best option.

....then this...

(Needless to say the next adventure "Second Chance" will have them start in VERY dire situations: Oskara will be sold into slavery and face **** at the hands of some slimy Gran, Lowhhrick gets tossed into a gauntlet with a deadly shockband around his throat - ending in him facing a rancor, and 41-VEX will become Trex personal service droid, enjoying the perks of an inhibition bolt.)

...which concerns me. What "****" is also greatly concerns me. To each his own though I suppose.

If you are truely concerned about your players using violence and getting their characters killed I wouldn't be putting them in situations such as, "DEADLY shockband around his throat....facing a RANCOR". Sorry, but it sounds more like a case of a GM who is using his creative mind to see what cool and deadly things he can come up with instead of what cool and interesting adventures he can come up with. That will quickly end player interest since, "I wonder in what horrible way Mike is going to kill us tonight?", will be fun at first but quickly turn boring.

Hi,

I think you're taking this a bit out of context. Talking to them about how "shoot first, try anything else later" is being reinforced by heavier obstacles that are easier to spot as "maybe I should NOT use my gun on this". The shock collar is to make sure the wookiee obeys and follows the gauntlet, whereas the Rancor is actually meant as an exit to his situation - he is not supposed to engaged it in a fight but instead manipulate it into the arena's walls where it can open the way to the spectators, bringing down the organized viewing pleasure of the assorted Hutts and crime lords present.

As for the "how can Mike kill us today" - I think by saving them twice already when they should technically be dead, I've proven that I have no interest in simply torturing my players. And concerning the **** - me and my group are absolutely okay with more mature themes.

While I am happy to share my entire adventure with you if you want to give me feedback on it, this is not the idea of this threat and the background of my question.

.

Hi,

I think you're taking this a bit out of context. Talking to them about how "shoot first, try anything else later" is being reinforced by heavier obstacles that are easier to spot as "maybe I should NOT use my gun on this". The shock collar is to make sure the wookiee obeys and follows the gauntlet, whereas the Rancor is actually meant as an exit to his situation - he is not supposed to engaged it in a fight but instead manipulate it into the arena's walls where it can open the way to the spectators, bringing down the organized viewing pleasure of the assorted Hutts and crime lords present.

Well the fuller explanation does alleviate some of my concerns. To be fair what you had typed did seem like a death sentence. The added details do change things. Hopefully your players take the bait so you don't have to use your GM raise dead ability again.

.

Hi,

I think you're taking this a bit out of context. Talking to them about how "shoot first, try anything else later" is being reinforced by heavier obstacles that are easier to spot as "maybe I should NOT use my gun on this". The shock collar is to make sure the wookiee obeys and follows the gauntlet, whereas the Rancor is actually meant as an exit to his situation - he is not supposed to engaged it in a fight but instead manipulate it into the arena's walls where it can open the way to the spectators, bringing down the organized viewing pleasure of the assorted Hutts and crime lords present.

Well the fuller explanation does alleviate some of my concerns. To be fair what you had typed did seem like a death sentence. The added details do change things. Hopefully your players take the bait so you don't have to use your GM raise dead ability again.

Glad we're on the same page.

so what do YOU do when your group is KO'ed by people who really, really, REALLY like to see them dead? Or eat them? Or both? What if that happens regularily?

.

Hi,

I think you're taking this a bit out of context. Talking to them about how "shoot first, try anything else later" is being reinforced by heavier obstacles that are easier to spot as "maybe I should NOT use my gun on this". The shock collar is to make sure the wookiee obeys and follows the gauntlet, whereas the Rancor is actually meant as an exit to his situation - he is not supposed to engaged it in a fight but instead manipulate it into the arena's walls where it can open the way to the spectators, bringing down the organized viewing pleasure of the assorted Hutts and crime lords present.

Well the fuller explanation does alleviate some of my concerns. To be fair what you had typed did seem like a death sentence. The added details do change things. Hopefully your players take the bait so you don't have to use your GM raise dead ability again.

Glad we're on the same page.

so what do YOU do when your group is KO'ed by people who really, really, REALLY like to see them dead? Or eat them? Or both? What if that happens regularily?

To be honest, group KO's aren't something I recall experiencing in a long, long time. I suppose it has become a matter of the players or myself thinking of a way to get away from such when things start to go haywire. As in, if the players somehow got themselves trapped in a dead end room with a battalion of Stormtroopers beyond, I might reveal a before unnoticed trap door in the ceiling if one of the players doesn't recall he has a breach charge in his backpack. That sort of thing typically occurs instead of the total party wipeout. Wipeouts need to be prevented before they occur so you don't have to deal with them afterwards.

I don't ever manipulate dice and let my players know such early on. I don't want them to think they are immortal.

You said KO's (not wipeouts) so I suppose there ARE some ways to deal with that. A KO is not a death sentence. In the Star Wars films more then once main characters were "KO'd" then given a death sentence only to be rescued.

If they are truly stupid, permanent death of a character is not the only option to "punish". It can be something actually just as painful for a player such as temporary imprisonment where they lose all of their hard earned property, for example.

You said KO's (not wipeouts) so I suppose there ARE some ways to deal with that. A KO is not a death sentence. In the Star Wars films more then once main characters were "KO'd" then given a death sentence only to be rescued.

If they are truly stupid, permanent death of a character is not the only option to "punish". It can be something actually just as painful for a player such as temporary imprisonment where they lose all of their hard earned property, for example.

I'm not sure what you mean by wipeout as opposed to KOs. Group death? I'm referring to the situation in which all characters suffered more wounds than their wound thresholds and as such, are unconcious.

Also, that there, the last sentence - that's where I wanted to get at. Can you think of other examples?

To be honest, group KO's aren't something I recall experiencing in a long, long time. I suppose it has become a matter of the players or myself thinking of a way to get away from such when things start to go haywire. As in, if the players somehow got themselves trapped in a dead end room with a battalion of Stormtroopers beyond, I might reveal a before unnoticed trap door in the ceiling if one of the players doesn't recall he has a breach charge in his backpack. That sort of thing typically occurs instead of the total party wipeout. Wipeouts need to be prevented before they occur so you don't have to deal with them afterwards.

This. Also remind the players about having Destiny points and the narration that allows. Having a certain degree of narrative "escape by the skin of my teeth" is usually a good thing.

In addition to what Sturn said (which I think is well said and should be read and utilized), here's a few other things to consider:

1) If they are defeated in combat by things that want them dead, WHY do they want them dead? Is it a Hutt's Bounty Hunter that was told to execute them in a way the Hutt can see in real time? Is it a hunting pack of Nexu that defeated the party? Is it a squad of stormtroopers shooting them up as they are escaping?

In any of these cases, it is entirely plausible that after they are knocked out, they are brought to a new location prior to be executed. whether by hungry nexu cubs, the Hutt's pets, or a Grand Moff's execution order.

2) There are fates worse than death. Here's a few to consider:

--More and more Obligation

--Enslavement

--Prison sentences

--Brainwashing (things happen around them and they don't know why; "waking up" with a blaster in hand and a corpse of a noble at their feet, for example)

--Torture, leading to other major problems.

--Hand-waived time elapsed as they serve their "term" (and when they are released with little to their names, imagine the complications! What if they were imprisoned during the Battle of Hoth, and get out just in time to hear about the new Death Star over Endor?)

Get creative here!

3) "Almost Dead": I've done this to ONE group of mine to date back in college during a summer campaign (we were missing half of our usual group). It was a Star Wars game, and the party was stuck on a psuedo-interdicted planet (think Falleen, or possibly Kuat, where all supplies are brought to a space station before being brought down and vice-versa). They were told that an island was very dangerous and given a list of reasons why (many of which could be overcome by proper gear and skills).

The group decided to go to the island anyway with a plan and explanation I didn't see coming: they were taking cargo to the station and then decided to go for the island. They were defeated by the predators there; total party wipe. I made them create new characters.

Later that year when our main campaign picked back up, they found out what happened to their characters: they were dragged off by the predators and placed into a form of stasis. The predators were actually created by a group of scientists to protect their lab and keep it hidden. Once the realized this, I allowed them to use these characters again if they chose.

It did teach them not to be as stupid later.

4) Single out those to die.

This can make players feel targeted, but there is something valid here. The party is taken to whomever wanted them in the first place after being knocked out, and one of them gets executed in front of the whole party. Normally you get the one that's been the biggest pain to the person in power (a politico who backtalks too much, a bodyguard who failed at their job, a slicer who learned too much) or even randomly determined (dice rolls) and have them quickly and publicly executed. The party is then kept locked up until the person in power decides to kill another one, normally a day more later.

While a jerk thing to do, it can give some valid story ideas as to how they can get out with a new character; perhaps this new character witnessed the execution and decided it was unjust, or maybe they are being paid to rescue the party with the concept of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Added bonus: if you are doing this, I would make the entire party make new characters after being taken out and then drop the above on them. This way they all assume they lost their beloved characters and ship, only to learn that they can stay in as-is. They can mourn the loss and move along, and they players (and characters) will learn.

And finally: LibrariaNPC's Approach to PC Death

I hate the idea of just killing players constantly. I've been in games with relatively in-depth character creation (anyone else played 7th Sea? If so, you know the math involved) and the GM would kill off my characters at the most undramatic times, like by a pickpocket in a back alley or by a poor die roll by another player. The DM of the D&D game I played in college would kill a PC every session; since I was normally a wizard or cleric, I was usually killed off, and usually by something random that didn't make sense, like teleporting giants. . .

Anyway, those games taught me that killing players off at inopportune times just SUCKS. My approach has been as follows:

1) Combat is combat, and you will get hurt. A lot.

2) Your HP/Trauma/Wound Threshold/Q is not a marker of if you die, but rather how long you can stay up and fighting.

3) The only time you will die in combat is if it is Dramatically Appropriate. Having an epic duel on the rafters, a shootout with your villain, doing a Death Star run, or holding off a mob in a bottleneck so the party can escape to safety are all Dramatically Appropriate. Rolling a perfect critical when you get hit with a chair in a random barfight is not.

4) Dramatically Appropriate moments are announced by the GM via clues. "Your opponent snarls 'I've been waiting a long time for the chance to see you dead' before lunging at you" is a sure sign that this guy will absolutely kill you if he gets the chance.

5) Escape is a plot device. So is death. If you think things are going poorly and you need to escape, tell me how you're doing it. The named and main villains will be doing the same.

Always remember: everyone is armed with destiny points. Use them wisely.

I agree with the folks who are recommending against a kind of "punishment" for the players.

It seems like they'd get the lesson after having their party knocked out two or three times in the Beginner's Game. I'm not sure for reasonable people there would need to be any punishment, especially not forcing them to buy skills or waste XP or something.

I'd just try to give them a fun adventure to escape from, and perhaps be a bit more lenient on them in the future.

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

Hi all, thanks for all your input (with the obvious exception of NatemusMaximus). I found the ideas in Sturn's and LibrariaNPC's posts the most helpful.

I like the idea of amnesia or executions and jail times best. Let's see how it's going to turn out in the future. Rest assured, though, that if Lowhhrick decides to blindly fight the Rancor, he will get eaten. But I'll make sure that this won't affect the other two.

Thanks again.

And concerning the **** - me and my group are absolutely okay with more mature themes.

Seriously, dude? That's what counts as 'mature'?

Wow. Just.. wow.

I thought this was EoE, not FATAL.

And that we'd hit the bottom a few months back with the now-banned 'is **** a good thing or not?' thread.

Yeah, you are obviously welcome to do whatever you want in your own game, but that's pretty horrible.

This is why I find it SO much more refreshing to play in an RPG group with mixed genders at the table.

We have mixed genders. You are assuming a lot - maybe stop with that?

Also I can't recall this being a main focus point of this threat, so either you send me your opinions via private message, or focus on my main question at hand. Nevertheless, unearthing a topic which has been closed ages ago should not be in the both of your interests.

My apologies. Have fun with your game!

As I'm reading through I'm wondering if you haven't created yourself your own nightmare. If everybody is in a different place, doing different things, how are you going to coordinate the game? If you only focus on one PC at a time, what do the other players do? It all feels quite punitive to no purpose, and might backfire as a social event.

Just MHO, I find candy works better than sticks (though you have to back up the candy). If you have a group that is only combat focussed (maybe because that's all they've been led to expect from RPGs) it's up to the GM to encourage a different play style. Start asking the PCs what else they might do rather than pulling a blaster all the time (and back it up with examples). When you design your scenarios, include chances to get some information that is easier (or only possible) with social skills.

I had a thought responding to a post on the Beginner Box forum about what to do when the party gets KO'd.

I recommended just having a couple of members wake up a short time later being dragged down the street by the Gammorreans. Maybe the Gammorrean gets distracted by a food stall, and the party can take the opportunity to run for it.

The same could be done with the Stormtroopers. Especially in the Beginner Box game, I'd take every opportunity to keep the party together and roughly on track with the adventure. Rather than having to make up details of an Imperial prison on the spot, they can just escape from the Stormtroopers before they're loaded onto a shuttle or something.

And concerning the **** - me and my group are absolutely okay with more mature themes.

Seriously, dude? That's what counts as 'mature'?

Also I can't recall this being a main focus point of this threat, so either you send me your opinions via private message, or focus on my main question at hand. Nevertheless, unearthing a topic which has been closed ages ago should not be in the both of your interests.

You probably shouldn't mention something in your post if you don't want people to talk about it.

We have mixed genders. You are assuming a lot - maybe stop with that?

Also I can't recall this being a main focus point of this threat, so either you send me your opinions via private message, or focus on my main question at hand. Nevertheless, unearthing a topic which has been closed ages ago should not be in the both of your interests.

Is one of the "mature themes" you and your group are "ok with" telling people to shut up and only talk about what you want to talk about when you've potentially offended them, albeit inadvertently? I always thought, I'm sorry was more appropriate but I am kind of old......

Okay, so for those who are interested, here's what I decided to do:

1. Instead of giving them 20 XP for the last adventure, they receive only 15 XP. They didn't overcome the last encounter

2. Taking away their belongings - which isn't very much since they're level 1 characters. Also will be able to find better equipment down the road in the new adventure.

3. I'm giving each of them Obligation: The Force (5): "Destiny has saved you from certain death - but the balance of the Force is shaken. Somewhere down the road, you will have to give back what you borrowed."

Point 3 is just a fancy and in-game way of saying "there, you had good luck. Each one of you will have bad luck somewhere down the line in exchange for this". We'll see how that turns out.

Thread.

ThreaD, Threa D , Threa D !

Sorry couldn't resist. I'll be hitching a ride on the Starship Natemus Maximus now.