I've been trying a new list out, and I've had some successes with it. Though I also think I've had better than average dice when I've played it, and some of my opponents haven't been the most experienced. I've seen some bad tactical errors than have dearly cost them. I'd like to hear from anyone who's willing to chime in, where the weaknesses are, and how your list would attack or defend against it.

The list I have been using is:

Garven + R2 Astromech (27)

Rookie Pilot + R2 Astromech (22)

Rookie Pilot + R2 Astromech (22)

Blue Squadron Pilot + HLC (29)

The general strategy and formation I've been using is to line up the three Xwings in front and keep the HLC BWing back at least one ship length to ideally take some Range 3 shots.

What strategies would you use against it? What strategies would you use if you were flying it?

It has a lot of firepower, and adequate defense.

Any thoughts?

>> Your list has low PS, so something like Biggs + Wedge(PTL) could wipe off 1 rookie Xwings before it even gets to fire. You are also unable to do the same against your opponent's PS2 ships either.

>> Garven is perhaps the wrong choice to pair up with Blue Bwing + HLC. The Bwing will likely take focus, since it has problems acquiring targetlock on the right target. Same goes for the rookie Xwings.

>> I find massed R2 astromechs on basic Xwings unnecessary most of the time. You would not be doing U-turns that often, and the Xwing's basic maneuvers are often good enough for you to recover from a U-turn. Maybe the R2 on Garven is alright since you cannot afford for Garven to not have his focus nor not be pointed at something to shoot at, but not so much on the rookies.

>> lack of turrets means that you would be easily bullied by elite imperials, like Soontir PTL, Vader + engine upgrade, etcetc who can easily stay out of the firing arcs of all 4 ships, especially when the battle gets more up close

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Maybe you could consider Green Awing + squadleader (21 points) for your 2nd action needs. Nobody would fire at the Awing, your PS2 ships would get their 2nd actions, the Awing is cheap, and the Awing is a pretty strong endgame piece when used correctly

alternatively, replace Garven with Dutch

Your list is a sitting duck for a high pilot skill Tie swarm. A six ship swarm with the lowest pilot skill of six and Howl Runner could take out the B-Wing in a joust no problem. I fly this Tie list a lot at my local store tournys and I have been able to take out a B-Wing in the first turn of combat 7 out of the last 8 games. (Lots of B-Wing players by me) The build is also 99 points so it will most likely have initiative. If you joust down the gutter you will get K turned in the second round of combat and loose another ship before you can fire.

If you want to keep the Blue Squadron B alive try this:

Blue Squadron Pilot + HLC (29)

Biggs + R2-F2 (28)

Rookie Pilot (21)

Rookie Pilot (21)

Fly the B with Biggs and go for a semi-flanking attack with them. Set the Rookies up in the gutter and attack out of the asteroid edge with the B and Biggs. Do to the B's slow speed you can not get to far away from the Rookies. Biggs with R2-F2 has lasted more than one combat round and will make sure your B does not get shot out in the first round of combat.

The only changes I would make to your list would be dropping the R2 units off of the rookies and upgrading your blue squadron pilot to a dagger squadron pilot. This way you have a better chance of getting a target lock with the B-wing. Then after Garvin spends his focus your B-wing can fire that nice heavy laser cannon with both target lock and focus. Of course this also allows your B-wing to shoot a little bit sooner which is always nice.

So it sounds like one issue of concern is the low PS of the ships. I agree, and I don't like that either. However, the 3 ship rebel builds I've tried have always been hammered by 6+ tie swarms. I'm not sure I can put together a 4 ship rebel list with PS skills higher than 4. I think I once you've resigned to running 4 rebel ships, your PS will generally be low, especially if you want any named pilots.

So, maybe that's just a weakness that can't be easily overcome when building the list. All lists have some weaknesses.

gz1962 says that he' take out the B in his alpha strike, ok. If the B is at range 3, and the X's are at range 1-2, is that still the strategy you'd use? My goal, not always attainable, is to keep that b at range 3 and range 2 for as long as possible.

How would you come at this list? I tend to not like to joust. So, when possible, I'd line up in the opposite corner. But given the low PS, I'm often lining up first, and I can joust if I have to. I've found that flying slow into combat and letting the other guy make a mistake is surprisingly effective. But a good pilot likely won't make a mistake, so how does that pilot line up against this list, and what is their approach strategy.

I'm asking because I have my own thoughts, but I'd like to hear others strategies, so I can devise a counter strategy, and I'm not surprised by a new approach.

By the way, the list is 100 points, and I hate initiative.

the low PS is something that all 4 ship rebels would suffer from, so it's more of a "hey you should take more care about this" rather than a "holy sheet this thing is really f-ing you over"

If my ships were all higher PS than yours, I'd rush straight at you and hope I take one of your ships out before it gets to shoot.

If I had the typical swarm with some high, some low, I'd probably zoom straight up the other side of the board (opposite from where you'd set up) and come around the asteroids on your edge, just to see what you'd do. Most of my swarms have PS 3 as the lowest pilot skill, so we'd still set up after your B-wing and Rookies. You'd have several choices. One would be to K-turn and come back to the corner you started in to meet us. If you chose to do so, we'd still essentially be doing a joust, just with some weird angles. Also, your B-wing in the back K-turns much sharper than the X-wings, so I could potentially isolate and kill it with minimal incoming fire from the X-wings, who would be at range.

Or you could turn through the asteroids and try to catch us on the flank as we try to zip along your edge of the field. I would not turn to meet you. I'd continue to zip by and perhaps K-turn myself if I saw that asteroids prevented you from turning to meet us right away. This would be your best choice if you could avoid the rocks. I'd just be hoping you'd hit them. Of course, if there was a large enough gap, then sure, I'd join you in the asteroids to duke it out.

Oh, you could also just keep running instead of turning around, and hope I don't catch you, but you'd still end up with the B-wing closer to us than you'd like. Maybe it wouldn't all play out like that, but that's the first way I'm seeing it.

My concern with that list is that it's all low PS and intended to go straight forward as you laid it out. I would think a better use would be to have the B wing flank left, and the two rookies screen for Garven, keeping him back at R3. The smart opponent will take the best shot available, which should be on a rookie. If they have a PS7+, then Garven can hand his focus to the rookie that they've started to target. If they haven't started to target one, he can hand it to whatever rookie has better positioning, to force the opponent into shooting the other one anyways.

With the B on the flank, it's unlikely to get as much attention, and should be able to stay at R3 longer, especially if you use your action to barrel roll back and away. However, using the action in that method yields an average of 2 hits with the HLC, so it won't be that deadly (your x wings with focus will yield 2.25).

I understand the desire to have Garven with the HLC to maximize the hurt, but if you put them both on the flank, the opponent will just consider that the main group (seeing as it's the higher points and more deadly combo anyways)... Maybe you could try to trick them by setting up as follows

B G X X

Turn 1 have GXX go 1 forward while the B goes 2 bank + BR left/forward. Then turn 2, pull G off with a 2 bank left. Depending on how fast the opponent went, no one should be in range again. At that point, G can pull a 2 turn right on turn 3, have a good shot, and be within R2 of the B to pass the token to. It won't work against everyone, but it could work against moderate opponents. And if they charge forward, it won't work at all. Without bench testing it, I don't know if this would work to get in R2 or not, but you could attempt something like the following to cover all bases:

B G

X X

Then having the X go 1/2 forward, and Garven 3 bank left. And then a 2/3 turn right. It might be enough to get in R2 of the B, but it would put him as the lead ship, which isn't that desirable. Maybe put the X at the front and G in the bank row, and charge with 4 forward with them, and 3 bank with G.

Related to the low PS I think you are going to have a harder time with Ion turrets and ordinance. None of your ships are great at evasion, and the loss or ionization of a ship could hit you very hard.

Actually, just looking at this list (which, don't get me wrong, I think is a great list, and is very close to what I use), I'm wondering if 4xGrey Squadron + Ion would be a natural counter. You couldn't one shot kill them, and after that they could largely control the board, draining health slowly, but surely. I kind of want to try that now, though it would make for a long and annoying game I think.

Firesprays and Lambda Shuttles with the defensive turret could be tough too, though only if they manoeuvre right. If they manoeuvre wrong you would have them.

5 Ties + Shuttle looks like a weakness jkjkjkjk (that's a plug at the game we played recently where I narrowly squeezed out a victory with some hot agility dice)

B Wings can definitely die in that first engagement very easily at Range 2. However, I've taken them out at range 3 with 7 ties only 1 time, however. So if you are Range 3, you should be okay, especially against 6 high PS Ties, which will have 2 less dice by default.

Id say, high PS swarms are currently the bane of most lists right now, except maybe 7 tie swarms...in a non timed match. In that regards, you DEFINITELY need to make those Rookies a better target than both Garven and the Blue.

The good news is, high PS swarms will have 1 less Tie, so killing just 1 tie will hurt quite a bit! You can also use your rookies to deny block a bit.

I'd recommend your setup on first engagement to be:

R R R1

G R2

B R3

An enemy not targeting the Rookies/Garven will be making a mistake. Especially if you pass the extra focus to the Blue. Also, you can squeeze this line easily through asteroids, making it difficult for your opponent to K Turn after the first engagement.

In general, though, pick and choose what squads to line up against, and which ones to split up a bit against. 2 going head in and 2 at the side means 2 ships won't need to K turn when your opponents have to.

I think some players are going a little overboard with the quantity over quality mind set. I get the idea, more guns is better right? But this isn't the case all the time, as some of you have pointed out. If I saw a bunch of PS 1 and 2s across the table from me (even if they had more ships) I'd charge straight at them. My Rebel fleets tend to be 3 ships with high PS and lots of synergy. Banking I'm going to drop the closest enemy to me, I wouldn't worry about R1 jousts. I also tend to have Biggs in my squad forcing my opponent to take bad R3 shots against him, rather than my (now) tokenless front men.

If you MUST have 4 ships, make sure you have a fleet that can combat the above mentioned scenario.

My thought on the list is that it looks plain but powerful. It can win some and lose some and a lot of that will depend on how things are flown on both sides of the table.

I find the suggestions to increase the PS funny when mentioned along with the idea of facing a PS 6 Swarm. That is getting into the "how much do I spend on PS" debate where there maybe no right answer. PS 2 wins facing PS 1 and then PS 4 wins over PS 2 or 3 while PS 6 then stops all over the PS 4 ships; the problem is why spend points for PS 3/4 instead of PS 1/2 when you will be facing PS 6 when you could use those points for something that could be useful.

I forgot to put in my 2 creds about your squad build. Personally, I would take the R2's away from the Rookies, and give that B-wing Fire-Control System. That should allow him a second round TL+F shot, especially if you set up the way Khyros suggested with the B-wing flying a little separated from the X-wings.

Everyone likes Biggs. I get it. I'm just not sure he makes a lot of sense in this list. I can swap out Biggs for Garvin, but I'm not sure they gets me anything at all. I lose an extra action, and Biggs has to get shot up first. Well, without a Luke/Wedge/etc other named pilot Biggs doesn't serve much purpose. I could drop a rookie pilot and put in Biggs, but in order to do that, I'd need to drop the other rookie and fill in with an A wing.

Duraham's suggestion to use a Green Awing with Squad leader to pass out extra actions is really clever. I like it, but it won't fit under 100 with Biggs and Garvin. So, then I'm dropping Garven (using Awing SL to give extra action), but then Biggs serves no purpose.

riplikash mentioned the trouble this list would have with Ion cannons. No doubt that ions are a real pain. I faced a list with 2 Ys with ions, 1 HWK with Ion, and I think it was Garnet and Moldy with a blaster. In that battle the B wing was ionized for the majority of the game, and one of my Rookie Xs was ionized to death onto a rock, but I still won the game with Garvin plus another Rookie at nearly full health and the B wing still barely alive. I think he made some tactical errors, he kept his ions too close together and basically their arks overlapped a lot of the same area (which I avoided) and he didn't target Garvin really at all. I think it can handle ion heavy lists, not perfectly, but if I can take out one of the ion turrets before all my ships are ion'd I think I can manage it. Besides you can nearly guarantee keeping a B wing ionized, but it's hard to keep an Xwing ionized for more than a turn or two, 3v2 isn't a guaranteed ion hit.

Phild0's suggestion to run the list in a

RR

G

B

formation has some good mojo. I'll have to give that a shot and see how it goes, although given the movement order with Garven moving last and potentially being in the way of the B wing, it could be a little tricky to fly.

Maybe the HLC isn't really worth it on the B wing. I've had a lot of success with it though. The two swarms I faced I was able to one shot Howl both times with it (I know that is incredible lucky and that it will RARELY go that way). I like the idea of the B with the HLC for two reasons. It can lay down some solid damage. And, it's a foil to targetting Garven. I want to try to give the opponent tough decisions. Do you focus on the B or on Garven? If I strip off the HLC and add AdvSensor to the B or something, I think the target becomes much easier, Garven. And I can't keep him alive very long if he is passing off his focus on attack, and he is the main target of attack. I think if I drop the HLC, I'd just swap in Luke with a droid or Ibit with PTL and drop two of the R2 droids.

I like the list the way it is, I think, I'm just trying to figure out it's tactical weaknesses before I play it in a tournament.

If I'm facing a high PS squad, and it lines up opposite me, should I just immediately to a 2 hard turn and run into the rocks? Or take my changes and charge ahead, hoping all four of my ships get a shot off. If I can sweat his alpha strike and keep my ship, my 4 ships returning fire should be able to take out one rebel ship, or 1.5-2 tie fighters, in which case I'd be in good shape. I'm just not sure how likely that is to happen, or if I should count on it.

So far, a lot of good feedback. Thanks.

Actually, if Howl doesn't have a token, which by the time your HLC gets around to shooting is likely, then the average damage done by an F+TL HLC against her is 2.63. Well within the margin of "repeatable 1 shot."

If you're worried about the B running into Garven, then you could set them up offset:

RR

G

B

or you could actually use it strategically to not really move forward, and stay at range even longer. If you dropped the 3 astromechs, you could even equip AdvS on the B so you wouldn't even lose your action.

Well it beat me pretty bad!