So, my local Dark Heresy group has some problems, and I need some advice on it.

(I can go into a long history, but here are the general problems:)

We've kind of got 3 GMs, including me. I was GMing solo for a while, but after my first mission went south (Total Party Kill south). Then, someone else stepped in and we started taking turns GMing... After a couple of his missions went really south (The last of which was ALSO Total Party Kill south,) a third player stepped in.

One of our players takes it personally whenever something bad happens to his character, even if it's blind bad luck. (Or, even if it's just because he did something really stupid.)

None of the players are particularly good at the game, and none of the GMs (Including myself) have been very good at dealing with it. In all but maybe two of our missions so far, either we've had to railroad the hell out of the plot, or else important facts and clues go right over the player's heads to the point where they have no idea what to do.

One of our GMs (The one who recently joined and is currently doing his first mission,) isn't going to write a PC, which means that whenever he's not GMing all he wants to do is sit on the sideline and help out the current GM... Which means he's probably either going to have almost nothing to do or else it'll get really annoying for whoever is actually GMing.

So, any suggestions for how I can deal with this? Mission-writing tips? Dealing-with-players tips? Campaign-running tips?

Not good at the game in the sense of not knowing the rules, or not good at role-playing?

Not particularly good at role playing. Not knowing the rules is fine, that's my job. (In fact, I think I'm the only one in our group who's read the whole rulebook.)

It's not that they can't stay in character, just that they don't know how to investigate or make forward progress. Understanding or comprehending the plot is almost never accomplished unless every clue is spoon-fed to them.

A couple instances to make my point: One player tried to fight about fifteen or so armed scum, by himself. (Needless to say, that player character reenacted the opening scene from the original Robocop.)

Another time, they kidnapped a local bartender in order to interrogate him. (A local bartender whom they had no reason to suspect knew anything, because they literally knew nothing about him. He ended up dead, because of bad dice mostly.)

Yet another time, a player attempted to axe through a wall in order to escape from bad guys, using a couple grenades to assist his effort.. When a door was five feet away, leading into the same room.

Also, I don't think they've ever actually solved a mystery. This might be because I and the other GMs are writing too difficult of investigations, but seeing as they almost never so much as find clues (Unless an NPC just blatantly tells them) I'm not so sure.

Firstly, Dark Heresy might not be the game for you. If you want high action, low-mystery fun in 40K, maybe try Only War instead? Or Deathwatch? That's the setting where you DO get to beat 15+ bad guys single handedly.

If you wish to wrap your heads around Dark Heresy (and it's a great game!), then some advice:

• Start with pre-written adventures. See what works, and what doesn't, and pick up some ideas on how to handle "missed clues". I can recommend the excellent and free Edge of Darkness, available from this site. Some of the competition-scenarios are also good, I have played Idyll Heresies with great success!
• Try having less-deadly opposition. If you're running an investigation game, with non-military heroes, it doesn't really make sense to have them fight a war. Of course, if they start murdering everybody, they will have a mob or the law after them, but that's their own fault. Talk to them, make them understand that actions have consequences, as in real life. But also try to accommodate their playstyle, this is more like an action-movie than real-life, and Jack Bauer leaves a trail of destruction and torture victims in his wake, and doesn't have THAT much trouble with the police
• Let their characters knowledge help them. Your friend might not know a lot about grenades, but his character with the appropriate Weapon Training Talents does. Just tell him: "You think that might be a bad idea", and why. They seem to be dying enough already, so help them out a bit
• I would not recommend co-GMing. Having a back-seat driver is annoying to everyone. Make him roll a character! Every GM needs to play every now and then to feel the game from the other side of the table. It grounds you, and you pick up on which GM methods you enjoy, and those that annoy you. And so you improve as a GM.

• Try working with "investigation skills". Chances on a "one shot unravel the plot - or not" will be smaller. For example: When your players encounter a sacrificial circle, don't let them roll an all or nothing Forbidden Lore (Daemonology), but make it an extended action (6h of research - look under investigation in the index).

• As a DM you're free to adapt the difficulty of certain tests. You could move from the standard "challenging" to "ordinary" or "routine" tests.

• About players taking stupid actions. I noticed in other roleplaying games that the most common reason for stupid actions is that players don't have a good idea of the situation they are in. In your example: was the player who tried "the shining" on a wall aware of the door. Did the GM describe the room, telling the players that "this room has but one exit, a sturdy wooden door". The more description you give, the more chances they have to do the right thing. Example: Compare "You see the heretics charging at you" with "You see a trio of heretics, armed with rusty swords, charging at you. You estimate that they'll reach your position in about 20 seconds. To your left is a metal ramp, in other words, an excellent firing position" . Chances are that in the first scenario your players might take a run for it, while in the second scenario they prepare themselves for the thread and might even use the elements you've described to further augment their advantage.

• Let them read the rules

• Finally, don't be afraid to tell your players that something is a stupid idea. You can disguise this kind of advice by telling them to roll an easy intelligence check. Use the result to point them in the right direction.

Good luck

So, to make sure I'm getting all this down...

Make the skill tests somewhat easier, so that the players have a good chance of passing.

In lieu of having them just look around and investigate solely on their own, have them take more skill checks to give them clues.

Also make sure that those skill tests are part of longer ongoing investigations in wherever they are investigating.

Convince the other GM to write a character for when he isn't GMing.

If they DO decide to abandon the group and pick fights with more powerful enemies, nerf the enemies to give them a chance to not die.

Try and convince them to read their copies of the rulebook. (I think all but maybe one of the characters has a legally questionable PDF copy, at least. There's nothing stopping them from taking a crack at actually reading it.)

So, to make sure I'm getting all this down...

If they DO decide to abandon the group and pick fights with more powerful enemies, nerf the enemies to give them a chance to not die.

Nah, If they go looking for pain, give it to them. But don't plan on running excessively violent scenes with hard enemies if you're playing an investigative scenario.

I'll repeat my advice of running a few pre-generated adventures to get the hang of things. Have you run Edge of Darkness? If not, take a look. It's free, great, and available right here!

Those points are great, and as a new GM to this game myself I understand where you are coming from. Give the players plenty of chances to find additional clues, one mistake I made and realized early on in my first mission was having the players make an awareness test to see a couple of drug dealers leaving their bar. When all the players failed said test I realized that was their only lead I gave them. So, make more than one lead, I reacted quickly and had an Arbiter come in and be an available second lead for them to go off of, but would take the investigation from a different point of view.

For example, if the players saw the drug dealers and followed them, they would have reason to believe there is a drug dealing operation being run by the low born, and would have to follow that lead up to who is running the operation.

While, when they tailed the arbiter to his residence and turned the place upside down they found evidence that something was amiss with his paycheck and signs that he was getting additional money from a second source other than the government. Does the corruption go higher? And who is on the ground floor making this operation happen?

The multiple angles given to your PCs will give them a greater chance to work on the investigation and doesn’t make it feel railroaded.

(A linear view of the Investigation to give you an illustration of what I mean)

Top of the Drug Operation

| ?

| ?

| ?

Arbiters Involved in something they shouldn’t be? <=====Arbiter Lead

| ?

| ?

Scum dealing the drugs, how far up does this go? <=====Drug dealer Lead

Hopefully something like this will help your PC’s not miss things so easily.

Some quick advice that might help you as a GM. When planning clues, make sure that there are several clues for each bit of information you want to give out, and make sure that important clues are easily found (e.g. incriminating document found on desk of person under investigation.) Remember as well that what seems obvious to you is not always obvious to others, it makes sense to you because you thought of it. Others might not follow the same thought pattern.

One thing worth saying though, if you have to spoonfeed clues or even railroad the players, and yet everyone still comes to the sessions and enjoys the game, you don't have a problem. The bigger problem to me seems to be the player who takes it personally, and much more difficult to resolve.

So, to make sure I'm getting all this down...

If they DO decide to abandon the group and pick fights with more powerful enemies, nerf the enemies to give them a chance to not die.

Nah, If they go looking for pain, give it to them. But don't plan on running excessively violent scenes with hard enemies if you're playing an investigative scenario.

I'll repeat my advice of running a few pre-generated adventures to get the hang of things. Have you run Edge of Darkness? If not, take a look. It's free, great, and available right here!

I might use that mission in a couple sessions, but I've got one I've been looking forward to running for about a month now (We only meet every other week or so, so we've been on the same mission for a while) that I don't want to delay any more. I'll read that one, though, and see if I can't steal ideas from it without ruining it for when we actually run it.

Some quick advice that might help you as a GM. When planning clues, make sure that there are several clues for each bit of information you want to give out, and make sure that important clues are easily found (e.g. incriminating document found on desk of person under investigation.) Remember as well that what seems obvious to you is not always obvious to others, it makes sense to you because you thought of it. Others might not follow the same thought pattern.

Also, try to make sure that you include clues for every character. For example if you want to track the dirty arbitrator, include an inquiry for the arbitrator and a tech use for decrypting his dataslate for the tech priest.