Probably a silly question, but can a Chaos Space Marine use the Synthmuscle Implant to increase his Unnatural Strength bonus?

From perspective of book it gives unnatural 1 or 4 csm already have 4... so no

From perspective of fluff csm musckles are "naturaly" super strong made from gene therapy so they already are acting as synthmuscle and they are even better becouse not mishaping figure so no penalty.... so no

From perspective of balance another +4 dmg and another +2 dos... No

coolzyg said:

Is there a rule on stacking Unnatural Characteristics from different sources anywhere in the book, though? Because I'm pretty sure a Khornite CSM still boosts his Unnatural Strength when he receives a Mark of Khorne.

Also, if we stick to reading the book as strictly as possible, CSM get Unnatural Strength +4, while Synthmuscle grants Unnatural Strength 1 or 4. 4+4=8. So by strict reading, no conflict here.

coolzyg said:

Yet the same Marine installing Bionic Arms still gets a bonus to all Strength rolls, just like humans do. So it stands to reason that the physique of Astartes can still be improved upon with implants.

coolzyg said:

I might be inclined to agree here, but I'm not really so sure. The only place where it gets really crazy is when combined with a Power Fist. Otherwise, it's not really better than what a Heretek can do with his Servo Arm.

I'd probably house rule it that Chaos marine can only get +1 unnatural strength from synth muscle, and that it would be instantly obvious. I wouldn't penalize them with -10 agility though.

Also, if we stick to reading the book as strictly as possible, CSM get Unnatural Strength +4, while Synthmuscle grants Unnatural Strength 1 or 4. 4+4=8. So by strict reading, no conflict here.

This. Unless you wanna say Space Marines don't get bonuses from any number of mutations, marks and cybernetics, unnatural stack. I don't know of any rule saying anything on the subject one way or another, but it's the fairest, simplest and most sensible answer.

From perspective of fluff csm musckles are "naturaly" super strong made from gene therapy so they already are acting as synthmuscle and they are even better becouse not mishaping figure so no penalty.... so no

They're stronger because they have insane amounts of muscle. However, muscle, much like armor, gets better the more of it you have. So why on holy Terra would a space marine not get stronger by lacing artifical muscles to his already impressive ones? More muscles, more strength!

From perspective of balance another +4 dmg and another +2 dos... No

Meh. Another +4 points of damage is rather insignificant. We're talking space marines in close combat here. They're either facing things so squishy those +4 are overkill, or they're facing things so scary those +4 are vitally important, because they're beating on a Greater Daemon. Besides, they're taking a -10 to ALL agility tests, including dodge, to get it. Fair trade, especially when one looks at some of the other cybernetics they could be getting for that acquisition.

I'd probably house rule it that Chaos marine can only get +1 unnatural strength from synth muscle, and that it would be instantly obvious. I wouldn't penalize them with -10 agility though.

While I can understand (though not agree) with the reasoning for the first part, the second baffles a bit. They're space marines. They're already massive, hulking slabs of muscled death. What are people gonna do, notice they're slightly bulkier than all those other extremely rare super soldiers they've seen in their life? And is that bulk really gonna be so big that it's a more noticeable difference than that between say a Strength 40 and a Strength 60 marine? Not to mention, we're talking about a group that tends to live and die fully enclosed within massive suits of armor. Are you seriously gonna notice that someone is a bit bulkier than another guy when they're both squeezed into 200 kilos worth of armor plating, synthetic muscle and spiky bits?

Reverend mort said:

I've allways seen synthmuscle or synthetic muscle graft as it's called in RT (if I remember correctly) as something that doesn't even resemble normal muscles. They don't look, function or feel like normal muscles. I look at them like implants, surgically placed underneath the subjects skin to increase effective strength in that area. It's bulky, and thus noticeable. What effect this will have on a marines social situations is something each gm will have to decide for himself. It might not be obvious all the time, but it will be occasionally (in my games).

And your reasoning that more muscles will allways be better is flawed. To a certain degree, it's true, but the supportive structure of the creature (most commonly the skeleton) has to be able to accomodate the added muscle mass as well. Imo, the allready considerable muscle mass on astartes is putting a rather large strain on their skeleton allready, so any added muscle masss(specially artificial ones) will have a limited usefulness.

There are other factors than just muscle mass that affects how strong a creature is. Leverage is also extremely important. Long muscles are generally stronger than short muscles, and no amount of extra muscle grafting will lenghten an astartes arms. It will thicken them, and that will certainly have an affect, but remember that muscles needs to be anchored to bone, and that will be difficult to acchieve without removing some of the existing muscle mass.

That is what I think synth muscles actually do to "normal humans". They don't just add more muscle mass to what's allready there, but they replace a lot of the normal muscle tissue in order to make room for the artificial mass. I don't see synth muscles as any better than the allready improved muscle mass astartes posess, so even though it can be applied to them, it will be much more limited in effectiveness than on normal humans.

Jackal_Strain said:

I guess it all comes down to the level of "realism" or rather what areas you choose to emphasize realism in your 40k games

A fairly large chunk of handwavium, as you called it, seems imposible to escape.

I would be more interested in how the CSM would end up looking.

Something like this feller I wager:

http://www.comicvine.com/thrud-the-barbarian/29-50440/

I personally wouldn't allow it, but for completely different reasons.

The first is that the surgery necessary to implant sufficient masses of additional artificial muscle into the already-enhanced musculature of the Astartes requires cutting through the Black Carapace, which can result in armour interface problems. The second is that the boosted mass of a Space Marine with synthmuscle, particularly the bulkier variety, means that he may not actually be able to fit into his armour anymore - power armour is rigid (and thus quite unforgiving of changes in the wearer's shape) and needs to fit closely against the skin at particular contact points (the interface ports in the Black Carapace), and the inclusion of synthmuscle interferes with both those factors.

It's theoretically possible to get round those problems - but they tend to require either not wearing that power armour, getting that ancient suit of armour modified to fit your bulkier form, and/or finding an augmetic surgeon skilled in performing unusual operations on unusual physiology (which is an adventure in itself as you search out a chirurgeon skilled enough and with the specific experience needed to perform the surgery... like Fabius Bile or certain breeds of Biologis Heretek, or a Dark Eldar Haemonculus)

N0-1_H3r3 said:

The Black Carapace has to be able to heal itself, or every second marine getting a round in him would be a cripple (as in unable to wear his armour).
It has to be able to survive mutations, or every second CSM wouldn't be able to wear armour either.

In addition a large chunk of mutations, and mutant CSMs in particular, will not fit inside normal power armour, yet we never see CSMs without power armour in TT. (I'm looking at you Deathguard)