is the Agility test to avoid a flamer spray a Dodge test? I mean, you cannot roll for Ag first and if failed try to dodge and roll again?

what happens if you shoot a flamer at surprised targets? can they still make the Agility test to avoid, given that surprised characters can't dodge either?

The agility test is NOT a dodge test (which means you still could dodge afterwards if you fail the Ag-test).

The Ag-Test is kind of there to replace the BS test.

You second question is a quite good one...not sure about that tbh.

Mechanically, you could still give the Ag-test (as the said replacement for the BS roll).

Realistically...your Ag wouldnt be of much use if you are surprised...

Any RAW source for this case, anyone ?

There's two rolls here. The first, dodge, is used to avoid the attack like any normal ranged attack. Surprised? No dodge.

Secondly, if a character is hit by a flame attack, they take the damage and must make an Agility check or be set On Fire. Being on fire is described in the combat section of the rulebook. I would say that a character hit by a flame attack would make this test regardless of whether they're surprised, but this seems to be an edge case that isn't explicitly defined.

The beta rules do not call out any differences between firing a flamer at a surprised target vs a normal combatant. Per the Surprised rules, attackers gain +30 BS/WS to attack Surprised combatants. Since flamers hit automatically, however, I would instead apply that as a penalty on the Ag test, but this isn't RAW.

is the Agility test to avoid a flamer spray a Dodge test? I mean, you cannot roll for Ag first and if failed try to dodge and roll again?

what happens if you shoot a flamer at surprised targets? can they still make the Agility test to avoid, given that surprised characters can't dodge either?

If you shoot a flamer at surprised targets, they roll Agility to not be hit, if they are hit, go directly to their Agility test to not be set on fire.

The Agility Tests are not Evasion tests, as far as I know, unless this changed between Only War and DH2.

I thought Flame weapons didn't allow Dodge tests. It seems odd to have the target test Ag twice to avoid the shot.

I guess this is pretty much a repeat of cps. :-)

Against all area attacks you can roll a dodge if your movement rate is big enough to get you out of the area. Given that you are not surprised and have an available reaction to spend on dodge.

If you do not dodge you are hit, take damage, and roll agility to avoid getting on fire. I would say it doesn't matter about surprise for that one, as putting out fire on yourself is something that is almost subconscious, but I don't see any RAW rules for this.

If you do not dodge you are hit, take damage, and roll agility to avoid getting on fire. I would say it doesn't matter about surprise for that one, as putting out fire on yourself is something that is almost subconscious, but I don't see any RAW rules for this.

Well, you get to test Agility to avoid being hit regardless of whether you Dodge or not. This test replaces the shooters BS test for other ranged weapons, so the number of dice rolls are the same (you can get ammo for shotguns that also light people on fire (at least in V1), so the Agility test to avoid catching fire is in addition to the "do I hit" tests).

So the sequence is thus:

Attacker sprays a given area.

1. All people in the area tests Agility to see if they are hit or not
2. Those hit may attempt a Dodge, if their AB allows them to escape the Area of Effect
3. Those still hit, myst test Agility to avoid catching fire.

Sounds like an errata is needed to clarify a few things:

1) the exact order of events following a flamer being used

2) what rolls are allowed to be made, and when

3) how attack roll modifiers affect flamer attacks.

I really don't see why an Errata would be needed. It's clunky, it's slow, yes, but it's RAW, and it's clear.

Well, you get to test Agility to avoid being hit regardless of whether you Dodge or not. This test replaces the shooters BS test for other ranged weapons, so the number of dice rolls are the same (you can get ammo for shotguns that also light people on fire (at least in V1), so the Agility test to avoid catching fire is in addition to the "do I hit" tests).

[...]

This is a horrorshow if you have more than three opponents or multiple different kinds of opponents in a combat scene.

I don't think this was aided by FFG's own confusion on the matter. In the previous games they gave contradictory rulings on spray weapons (or Flame weapons in DH 1).

As written back in DH it was:

1) Flame direction is determined. Everyone under the area rolls Agility to avoid being hit. If they succeed they are not hit and everything ends then. If they fail their roll proceed to step 2.

2) Anyone who still has a Reaction left can choose to attempt to dodge. If they succeed they can move to the edge of the area as long as it is within their AgB in metres.

3) Those that failed their Dodge (or didn't dodge at all) take damage, and test for being set on fire.

Basically it works as a normal ranged attack aside from: 1) The to-hit roll is replaced with the initial agility roll (with a +20 bonus is untrained or -20 if the attacker had the relevant talent), 2) targets could only dodge if they could reach the edge of the affected area with their half move, 3) if 9 was rolled for damage the Flamer is jammed (as no to hit roll is made).

And yes, this does mean flamers can be quite time consuming to resolve, though not only if one target was covered by the template, as Fgdsfg said.

This was parsed from RAW. It wasn't detailed step by step anywhere, instead coming from the Flame quality rules (template + roll for agility to avoid and then if damaged need to check if on fire) and the "dodging area affect" rules (Blasts and Flamers you can only dodge if you can reach the edge of the template).

However, different responses from Fantasy Flight suggested that they thought the first roll and the second were combined (ie, your reaction dodge counted as the Dodge test to avoid being hit), while others didn't and others again flat out misunderstood the question and answered a different issue. Suggests that they could use a clarification.

The problem with allowing a Dodge test after having failed the Ag test is that high Ag targets will almost never be hit. That's different from firing any other kind of weapon as in that case the first test is a BS test which is a factor of the shooter's skill, not the target's.

And conversely, low Agility targets will ALWAYS be hit, regardless of the (lack of) skill of the shooter.

It has it's upsides and downsides, and the trick is as always to use the right tool for the job

Order for dh2 flamer attack

1. Flamer is used (No BS test)

2. All targets may dodge (if they can dodge out of the cone).

3. All targets that failed dodge roll agility to not be set of fire.

That’s how I interpret RAW.

Order for dh2 flamer attack

1. Flamer is used (No BS test)

2. All targets may dodge (if they can dodge out of the cone).

3. All targets that failed dodge roll agility to not be set of fire.

That’s how I interpret RAW.

So they changed it in DH2? I was under the impression that it was still like in Only War, as described above.

Again, an errata would be very helpful given the multiple conflicting rule interpretations.

The beta rules do not call out any differences between firing a flamer at a surprised target vs a normal combatant. Per the Surprised rules, attackers gain +30 BS/WS to attack Surprised combatants. Since flamers hit automatically, however, I would instead apply that as a penalty on the Ag test, but this isn't RAW.

This is a good way to implement it.

Again, an errata would be very helpful given the multiple conflicting rule interpretations.

Again, I don't see why. That's like saying that every single rule needs an Errata to clear up the multiple conflicting rule interpretations. I can't think of any rule that someone somewhere hasn't been reading wrong at some point.

The only reason this could possibly need an Errata is if they decide to change the functionality.

Flamer weapons now have the SPRAY quality, which means that targets gets an agility check to avoid being hit altogether.

So order is (and I am correcting my previous post!):

1) Flamer is fired

2) All targets in flame area rolls agility check or is hit (SPRAY quality)

3) If hit targets have enough movement to get out of the flame area they may roll dodge and on success are not hit and move outside (DODGE vs area of effect damage)

4) Hit targets takes damage and rolls agility to check if they are set on fire (FLAME quality)

For most it means failing 3 agility checks before being set on fire

Again, an errata would be very helpful given the multiple conflicting rule interpretations.

Again, I don't see why. That's like saying that every single rule needs an Errata to clear up the multiple conflicting rule interpretations. I can't think of any rule that someone somewhere hasn't been reading wrong at some point.

The only reason this could possibly need an Errata is if they decide to change the functionality.

Im probably using the wrong word then. This could use an official clarification in an errata/FAQ. That said, a rule this unclear to people (and one that's been unclear since the first 40K game) really needs to be rewritten and redone.

I agree. Creating an entirely different procedure for resolving an attack just for one specific weapon causes more headaches than it's worth. Because you also need to change how to-hit modifiers work, and jamming, and weapon proficiency, and what not. Why not simply go with some variant of the Blast quality. You just make an attack roll based on BS as normal, and you can may also hit targets standing nearby.

So order is (and I am correcting my previous post!):

... the exact same sequence I posted waaaay back in post #7

The Spray quality is new compared to DH v1, but is simply PART of what the Flame quality used to be. Makes more sense now, as you can apply the Flame quality to other weapons, like melee weapons or regular guns with incendiary ammunition.

I seem to be blind, but remember that in DH1 flamer don't need BS-tests to be fired...where does it say that in DH2 and why should a "smart" player bother buying the talent...?

I usually argue with my players that the talent involves cleaning the weapon etc., too.

I seem to be blind, but remember that in DH1 flamer don't need BS-tests to be fired...where does it say that in DH2 and why should a "smart" player bother buying the talent...?

I usually argue with my players that the talent involves cleaning the weapon etc., too.

With the SRAY quality you don't need to use BS check to fire your weapon. Instead all targets in area of affect rolls agility or will be hit.

... Rolls dodge (=

I seem to be blind, but remember that in DH1 flamer don't need BS-tests to be fired...where does it say that in DH2 and why should a "smart" player bother buying the talent...?

I usually argue with my players that the talent involves cleaning the weapon etc., too.

under the rules for "Spray" it says targets gain a +20 bonus to the agility test if you are untrained with the weapon. If using a heavy flamer and you don't brace that bonus goes up to +30.

other weapons with the flame quality, via ammo or psyker buff, still roll their respective ballistic skill or weapon skill test.