Loyalists and Heretics

By Gurkhal, in Deathwatch

I hope I've posted this in the right part of the forum, and if not I apologize.

Anyway I was making some random thinking about the Horus Heresy and wondered what Legions might have been loyal or heretic if things had gone different. Thus I wrote up a list of legions in the two camps in a "what if" scenario.

What do you think of this disposition, and what would if anyone has some ideas on a "what if" scenario for the Horus Heresy or some other things connected with the Horus Heresy, please feel free to post. :)

Loyal

Ultramarine

Imperial Fist

Emperor's Children

Word Bearers

Space Wolves

Thousand Sons

Salamanders

Death Guard

Traitor

Sons of Horus

World Eaters

Dark Angels

Alpha Legion

White Scars

Iron Hands

Raven Guard

Night Lords

Blood Angels

Neutral

Iron Warriors

You might want to google "Dornian heresy".

Alex

Blood Angels would never have turned traitor.

I know your LGS buddies probably have had the talks of "oh their going to turn to khorne," or "mephiston is a demon prince," but thats all hogwash. Blood Angels will never turn to chaos (You hear that Matt Ward! don't even think about it!). Despite the lies of demons (thats what they do after all, trust not the demon!) mephiston is not a demon.

As much as Sanguinious loved (plutonicaly) horus he would never turn against the emperor. Hell, he sacrificed himself at the end, how much more proof of his loyalty do you need?

Got to side with herichimo on this one. I don't see the Blood Angels turning traitor at all.

Well, just to "feed the trolls"... gran_risa.gif

I would suggest first taking a look at possible 'Horuses' of our story:

The scenario with actual Horus Lupercal being the Arch-fiend is the obvious one, but the charismatic primarch of the Luna Wolves is not the only candidate. Another possible rebel leader is Lion El'Jonson - ambitious enough to conceive such a thing and possessing a talent for warfare to actually organize such an endeavor and see it though to the end.

If Lion takes the mantle of leadership instead of Horus, what would change in our story? Most notably, the rebellion would be less about Chaos worship and more about a simple coup, as Lion is not a charismatic leader in the way Horus is, but relies on cold intellect instead. He would be a nut far harder to crack for the Chaos Gods. So, as the Heresy runs its course, the Dark Angels would probably not succumb to the Ruinous Powers in the way Sons of Horus did. They might yet become the Black Legion in the end, but not the one we see 'today'. Less enamoured by the powers of the Warp and more disciplined, they would probably remain on good terms with the Night Lords, the Alpha Legion and the Iron Warriors - the least corrupted of the Chaos Space Marine Legions.

On the other hand, it would be difficult for the Lion to win support of the zealous Word Bearers; Lorgar would never view Lion as the herald of his perceived 'golden age of Chaos worship', so at some point the Word Bearers are obliged to break away to fight their own war. The so-called Cult Legions - the World Eaters, the Death Guard, the Emperor's Children and the Thousand Sons - will abandon Lion as well, their loyalties now not to the human race or the Imperium, but to the Chaos Gods. So, at some point the forces of Warmaster Lion will collapse, more than half his warriors leaving the cause to fight their own war. This will be the death-knell of the Heresy, and the rebels will be forced to flee; Word Bearers and their allies hiding in the Eye of Terror, Lion supporters retreating to the fringes of the galaxy.

Will the False Emperor still be dead, his sorry carcass bolted to the Golden Throne? Most likely. Would it be a duel? Probably. Lion was raised in the Order - a brotherhood of knights, and the notion of personal combat would appeal to his nature. The scene would be different however; if we consider the speed and ferocity of Lion's battle plans, it would be obvious he would not be content sitting on his battle barge, waiting for the Emperor to come to him. No, he would lead his Primarch brothers in the teleport attack upon the Imperial Palace, challenging lord of Mankind in his own throne-room. And that is the place Lion would surely die. I think it would not be the Emperor (it is unlikely even for him to defeat six - eight primarchs attacking in unison), but one of Lion's own brothers. Lorgar maybe, once again misled by the whispers of Erebus and Kor Phaeron, or Perturabo, or Horus, eager to avenge the death of his beloved father... It hardly matters. The end would be almost the same as in the original Heresy - the Emperor dead and rebels on the run, scattered during the long and bloody Culling.

But what about the other primarchs? Is their fate, their place in the approaching Heresy sealed? With a few exceptions - yes, because, like it or not, but the lines of the Heresy were drawn not by the machinations of the Chaos Gods and not by petty rivalries and enmities between different Primarchs. They are the product of the False Emperor's "brilliant" leadership.

To better illustrate the point, let us take a quick look at the "traitor" Primarchs.

1). The Erased. The Second and Eleventh. Their crimes were probably severe and worthy of punishment (maybe a sound beating and a period of confinement and contemplation), but the "Great Leader" went clearly overboard. Not only he ordered to murder his own sons, but he made the surviving 18 make a vow to forget everything, as if Second and Eleventh never existed. And thus he made his point: you're either an obedient primarch, or a dead and forgotten one. You either serve unquestioningly, or die ignobly; your Legion, your achievements and ever your dreams shattered and forgotten forever. Now I don't know about super-human beings, but if you set that kind of example for even the most stupid and unruly human child, h won't behave better. He will just fear the punishment and learn to hide that which 'big angry father' would not approve of. Try yelling at a young son because he got a 'pair' in school - you'll soon see what I mean.

2). The Slighted. Lorgar, Conrad Curze, Magnus and Perturabo were the most loyal and devout sons, who fought for the better Imperium as they understood it. But were their efforts recognized? No.

2.1). Lorgar was a builder, a visionary, the worlds his Legion brought to compliance were 100% loyal to the Imperium and the Emperor. Was Lorgar wrong in picturing the Emperor as a God? Perhaps. But to understand Lorgar's way one should consider the basic principles of compliance process. Most primarchs were content just to crush the 'heathen' culture and kill off all who dared to oppose them and then simply move on to a new conquest, leaving the now "compliant" world drenched in blood, leaving only misery and hatred behind. Yes, in time Imperial iterators and engineers and bureaucrats would build a new, a 'better' scoiety out of the ashes, but by then the seeds of future rebellion would take root (as the Heresy proved later). The Word Bearers preferred a different approach, staying on the planet they conquered years on end to clean up the mess they created and to ensure the society they would leave behind would be a content and happy one. And what better way there is to convert a whole planet than to tell them the lord is actually a God? It was a strategically sound decision, the one that would have benefited all of Humanity, even if it was based on a lie.

2.2). Konrad Curze made the ultimate sacrifice. He sacrificed his own humanity to become Emperor's loyal monster, the one who could carry out any order, no matter how grim or unpleasant it may be. Every war needs its own 'Black Ops'; the Night Lords were such a force during the Great Crusade. Their cruelty, their perceived 'excesses' - they were silently sanctioned by the Emperor, just like the existence of the Officio Assassinorum was. And only in later years of the Great Crusade, when the bureaucrats who never fired a shot in anger were given right to question the warriors who actually built the Imperium, only then were the Night Lords suddenly 'judged and found wanting'.

2.3). The tale of Magnus and Thousand Sons is a well-known one. The legion of psykers, first allowed to practice and hone their skills for an age, then all of a sudden forbidden to do it. Honestly, what did the "Great Leader" expected? That they would obey, that they would just lock away centuries of experience and 'live happily ever after'? To enforce such a thing is impossible, and to believe otherwise is utter folly. Even more so if one would consider all the good the Thousand Sons did for the Imperium, all the victories won by their powers, all the worlds brought by them to compliance.

2.4). Perturabo and his Iron Warriors fell in with the rebels not due to some gross insult, like the three above-mentioned Legions, but due to sheer negligence. Their Legion fought bravely during the Great Crusade, but the accolades for the victories won with their help invariably went to the others. Believe me, nothing is so frustrating than seeing another being praised for the success your hard work had ensured; it gets under your skin somehow. Was it so difficult and abhorrent for the Emperor to show Perturabo and his sons the respect they deserved? Hardly so. Entire planets were turned into triumphal stages for the benefit of other Legions; but not for the Iron Warriors. Now you cannot rise a cadre of elite warriors led by a demigod commander and then treat them like footslogging common infantry. It leads to a coup. History is full of examples.

The worst crime of the Emperor in case of the Slighted was the fact his judgement was invariably a few centuries too late. If he would have told Lorgar from the beginning he was no God and shown him better path, the Word Bearers might have embraced another - atheistic - creed. If he would have forbidden Magnus to "look to far", the psychic powers of the Thousand Sons would never have developed to a 'point of no return'. Konrad Curze, prohibited from enforcing his rather radical brand of justice, might have become someone different - a Punisher instead of Freddy Krueger, if you get my meaning gui%C3%B1o.gif

But Emperor needed his Imperium; he craved new conquests, new planets, new nations to consume and make a part of his immense war machine. So he turned a blind eye to the "excesses" of his three sons and all but ignored the fourth, content to let them do as they please as long as new worlds were being brought into "compliance". And when - after centuries of warfare, when the mindset and customs and the very fate of the Legions were already set - did he shown his sudden "concern" and "displeasure". It's the hypocrisy of the worst sort.

3). The Possessed. Angron, Fulgrim and Mortarion. Their so-called 'treachery' was due to some flaw in their upbringing or sheer back luck.

3.1). Angron was raised as a bloodthirsty slaugtherer, his psyche tampered with at an early age. To make things worse, the Emperor forced him to leave his followers, literally abducting the primarch and allowing his gladiator friends to be butchered. Wounds like that do hot heal, no matter what. Factor in the bloody upbringing of Angron, and it will be no wonder Khorne claimed World Eaters and their primarch as his own.

3.2). Fulgrim was the only of the primachs who actually was possessed by a daemon, his soul devoured (or trapped) by a warp dweller. Could have some other primarch to have fallen to the daemon lord of Laerans? Unlikely; Fulgrim's search for perfection and his own vanity made him prime candidate for Slaanesh to corrupt. He might have won the final battle for his soul, I guess, but it would have changed preciously little by then - Fulgrim's dedication to Slaanesh was by that time complete, so the only question was which one of two souls would own the body of the daemon primarch.

3.3). Mortarion's fall was all but ensured by the forces at play. His resilience, his upbringing, even the hidden faith of his closest lieutenant - Typhon, captain of the First Company - was screaming to Nurgle to claim the Death Guard as his own. And when the Legion's fleet was becalmed in the warp, there was preciously little the primarch could have done to avoid his fate. The notion that he should have 'died pure' is unlikely, as its concept is at odds with Mortarion's survivalist nature.

So, as we can see, the "traitors" were all set in their course, with only two notable exceptions. First, the Alpha Legion; Alpharius and Omegon joined forces with Horus out of misguided notion it would be in the Humanity's best interests for the Emperor to be slain, for it will supposedly bring the death of Chaos. Just why the twin primarchs chose to believe a cabal of unclean xenos creatures is hard to fathom; perhaps they were caught in their own web of lies, or genuinely believed (though by what leap of logic I don't understand) the xenos' 'prophecies' to be true... maybe they even wanted to betray the betrayer in the end and so win the day for the Emperor. The truth is unknown, but the point remains the same: Alpha Legion loyalty is far from certain, and they could easily be imagined fighting alongside Loyalists. Second, its the Sons of Horus. If the Chaos Gods would have chosen another to be their herald (the very same Lion, or Magnus - as unlikely as it sounds, or even rather pacifistic Lorgar), then Horus - a new era of glorious warfare once again looming ahead of him - would have probably remained loyal to the Emperor. For, aside from usurping the throne, there really is no motivation for him to betray the lord of Mankind. Maybe he would have done so in the end, but at the beginning of Heresy he would have been with the Emperor.

As for the the so-called Loyalist Legions, their sympathies and creeds are more or less obvious. Given time, the Space Wolves might have damned to join the ranks of the Slighted, scorned for their barbaric ways, but it is a really long shot. The Heresy would have begun (and it did) much earlier than that. Blood Angels' genetic flaw only become manifest after their primarch's demise, so there is really no chance they would thropw their lot with the rebels before that. And certainly they wouldn't join ranks later with the murderers of their sire. Imperial Fists and Ultramarines would have gotten themselves into trouble sooner or later; not with the Emperor but with the other Legions. Their 'holier than thou' attitude annoyed quite a lot of primarchs, in no small part due to the fact they were clearly favoured by the Emperor. White Scars, Raven Guard and Salamanders would have probably stayed true to the cause no matter what.

So, IMHO, if we wouldn't make some drastic changes to the 'background' of the 40K universe (like Fulgrim bombing the Laeran into oblivion from orbit, never finding the daemon blade) and would look at the conflict from "Emperor vs. Chaos" point of view, the stage for the Heresy would be pretty much the same as it is, with only three legions' loyalties being uncertain. Either Sons of Horus or Dark Angels will be at the forefront of the Heretics' army, and Alpha Legion could be fighting against or alongside the Loyalists. All the other primarchs are set in their ways.

While we're feeding the trolls.. I believe you've forgotten a detail about Lion El'Jonson's possible betrayal. He was, as you said, raised by a brotherhood of knights. He went as far as become the Grandmaster of his order, which in turn did rigorously nothing to make the life of its supplicants easy, quite the contrary. It would take way beyond a slight for the Lion to even consider betraying the Emperor (enough to perceive that the Emperor betrayed him in a significant way), let alone wake up one day and think, "hey, I've been performing pretty darn well and taken a lot less casualties than these other over-extended hacks... To the warp with my vows of loyalty, winner takes all!"

That said, if the Emperor -had- made such a dumb move that the Lion thought himself betrayed.... Well, we all know what happened to Caliban.

I could see the Lion, and a number of other Primarchs, potentially succumbing to the argument made amongst the Luna Wolves that "the Emperor doesn't care about the Astartes any more, and is handing over the Imperium to administrators".

LockLock said:

While we're feeding the trolls.. I believe you've forgotten a detail about Lion El'Jonson's possible betrayal. He was, as you said, raised by a brotherhood of knights. He went as far as become the Grandmaster of his order, which in turn did rigorously nothing to make the life of its supplicants easy, quite the contrary. It would take way beyond a slight for the Lion to even consider betraying the Emperor (enough to perceive that the Emperor betrayed him in a significant way), let alone wake up one day and think, "hey, I've been performing pretty darn well and taken a lot less casualties than these other over-extended hacks... To the warp with my vows of loyalty, winner takes all!"

That said, if the Emperor -had- made such a dumb move that the Lion thought himself betrayed.... Well, we all know what happened to Caliban.

On topic though; If the Lion would turn traitor warmaster I think the loyalists would be facing an even harder chalange then they did with horus. The man was a real tactical genious. Led a crusade against warpspawned monsters on his home world with nothing but humans armed with low tech bolt pistols, chainswords and plate mail. Conquerd and defended a forge world from horus traitors with only two hundred battle brothers during the early days of the crusade.
The man was smart, and he knew how to use every man under his command to the best of his abilities.
And im to tired to type anymore:(

voresia said:

Just a freak accident! battle-Brother Eskel left the gas on in the Chapter-monastery's kitchen on, thats all. No heresy here.

Erm yes, of course. My mistake. :P

Erborn said:

Well, just to "feed the trolls"... gran_risa.gif

I would suggest first taking a look at possible 'Horuses' of our story: <lost of stuff>

Thanks for writing ALL this! This was truly some really great ideas, I never even thought about! :)

I was always under the impression that Lion El did turn traitor, and it was actually Luther that was loyal - it's just that this all happened over by Caliban without anyone else to witness it, so when the Heresy failed, there was no one around except Luther and the "Fallen" who would say otherwise, and if a Primarch says it was they that turned traitor, or doesn't mention any of it at all... who of the surviving loyalists is going to question it?

That always fell into the "Dark Angels deep dark secret" thing for me.

MILLANDSON said:

I was always under the impression that Lion El did turn traitor, and it was actually Luther that was loyal - it's just that this all happened over by Caliban without anyone else to witness it, so when the Heresy failed, there was no one around except Luther and the "Fallen" who would say otherwise, and if a Primarch says it was they that turned traitor, or doesn't mention any of it at all... who of the surviving loyalists is going to question it?

That always fell into the "Dark Angels deep dark secret" thing for me.

That always struck me as far too obvious a "twist". I personally like the current direction being taken, as demonstrated in Aaron Dembski-Bowden's short story Savage Weapons (in Age of Darkness ): that while Caliban was touched by Chaos and taint found its way into the Legion, the Lion remained loyal, and his years during the Heresy were spent fighting to keep the Imperium alive... but, because he's unable to reach Terra and fight during the final battle of the Heresy, and because of the repercussions of the betrayal within the First Legion, history will always view him with doubt and suspicion in spite of his unwavering loyalty.

The comments made by Astelan in Angels of Darkness all those years ago... while I can see why people chose to believe them, nobody ever really stopped to wonder if Astelan's personal bias interfered with his recollection, or even the possibility that he was flat out lying to screw with Interrogator-Chaplain Boreas.

Erborn said:

2.2). Konrad Curze made the ultimate sacrifice. He sacrificed his own humanity to become Emperor's loyal monster, the one who could carry out any order, no matter how grim or unpleasant it may be. Every war needs its own 'Black Ops'; the Night Lords were such a force during the Great Crusade. Their cruelty, their perceived 'excesses' - they were silently sanctioned by the Emperor, just like the existence of the Officio Assassinorum was. And only in later years of the Great Crusade, when the bureaucrats who never fired a shot in anger were given right to question the warriors who actually built the Imperium, only then were the Night Lords suddenly 'judged and found wanting'.

Well, that kind of depends on who you ask. While many amongst the Night Lords view their situation as being one of betrayal, we haven't actually got much information on what the Night Lords were actually like during the Great Crusade. It's easy to get caught up in the idealised nostalgic remembrances of a few, and as easy to overlook the atrocities the Night Lords have been responsible for since... this is, afterall, a Legion which at one point was comprised of murderers and rapists.

Erborn said:

2.3). The tale of Magnus and Thousand Sons is a well-known one. The legion of psykers, first allowed to practice and hone their skills for an age, then all of a sudden forbidden to do it. Honestly, what did the "Great Leader" expected? That they would obey, that they would just lock away centuries of experience and 'live happily ever after'? To enforce such a thing is impossible, and to believe otherwise is utter folly. Even more so if one would consider all the good the Thousand Sons did for the Imperium, all the victories won by their powers, all the worlds brought by them to compliance.

Less clear-cut than that. Magnus made mistakes and caused problems for himself. He made deals with daemons thinking that he could master them, he presumed to know better than everyone else, and he was extremely prideful. It's Magnus' hubris that saw his downfall as much as any other factor... that, and the fact that he was being set up.

Erborn said:

The worst crime of the Emperor in case of the Slighted was the fact his judgement was invariably a few centuries too late. If he would have told Lorgar from the beginning he was no God and shown him better path, the Word Bearers might have embraced another - atheistic - creed.

Part of the Emperor's judgement of Lorgar was that Lorgar was taking so long - he was taking years to see a world to compliance, while the other Legions were achieving far more in that time.

Beyond that, while the Emperor's treatment of Lorgar was harsh, I hardly think that it's the only reason...

Erborn said:

But Emperor needed his Imperium; he craved new conquests, new planets, new nations to consume and make a part of his immense war machine. So he turned a blind eye to the "excesses" of his three sons and all but ignored the fourth, content to let them do as they please as long as new worlds were being brought into "compliance". And when - after centuries of warfare, when the mindset and customs and the very fate of the Legions were already set - did he shown his sudden "concern" and "displeasure". It's the hypocrisy of the worst sort.

It's actually really easy to see the Emperor as a bad guy, because we have more information about the Heresy from the point of view of the Traitors than we do from the Loyalists' perspective. Thing is, we don't have the whole story, we can't see the big picture because we've only seen parts of the jigsaw.

Most importantly, it seems all to easy to forget that Chaos isn't a passive bystander in this - the forces of Chaos made efforts to push things in their favour rather than just waiting with open arms for dissatisfied Primarchs to come running to them...

Erborn said:

So, as we can see, the "traitors" were all set in their course, with only two notable exceptions. First, the Alpha Legion; Alpharius and Omegon joined forces with Horus out of misguided notion it would be in the Humanity's best interests for the Emperor to be slain, for it will supposedly bring the death of Chaos

Why do so many people assume that Legion is the end of that particular story? Why do so few recognise that we don't actually know what Alpharius Omegon chose?

N0-1_H3r3 said:

It's actually really easy to see the Emperor as a bad guy, because we have more information about the Heresy from the point of view of the Traitors than we do from the Loyalists' perspective. Thing is, we don't have the whole story, we can't see the big picture because we've only seen parts of the jigsaw.

Most importantly, it seems all to easy to forget that Chaos isn't a passive bystander in this - the forces of Chaos made efforts to push things in their favour rather than just waiting with open arms for dissatisfied Primarchs to come running to them...

Well, as the saying goes "the truth is subjective". And as the blessed Primarch Lorgar, the Favoured Son of Chaos, said ten millenia ago - "the difference between Gods and Daemon largely depends upon where one is standing at the time" demonio.gif

In other words, the "truth" is not just an accurate account of an event, but is also the sum of our feelings and thoughts on the subject. I'm quite sure the Emperor had his reasons - perhaps really good ones - to behave and act like he did, and I don't question the necessity of his actions. But all of us must be prepared not only to act, but also to live with the consequences of our actions. And we must also keep in mind that what seems to be an important and sound reason for us, might look like a whim of an idiot or an excuse of a hypocrite to an outside observer. And being a great leader doesn't mean crushing all opposition beneath your feet and killing everyone who argues with you; no, the art of leadership is just as much about compromises and public relations.

If the Emperor be more tolerant in his views, his sons might have never rebelled. The Gods themselves - by the admission of their own heralds - were prepared to work with the Emperor, not plotting against him. No, no matter how brilliant the False Emperor's 'great plan' was, the man dug his own grave. And even worse, he is now dragging the whole edifice of the Imperium with him.

(btw, I believe the motivations of Loyalist legions would also be pictured in great detail in near future - with the next books in HH series being dedicated to Raven Guard (Deliverance Lost) and Ultramarines (Know No Fear) gui%C3%B1o.gif ).

To return to the original topic, what do we think about some less likely possibilities? What would happen during the Heresy if some of the following would come to pass:

1. Fulgrim would actually bombard Laeran from orbit, killing the daemon lord in the fires of Exterminatus.

2. Horus would survive his fight with Eugan Temba unscathed by anathame blade, thus never succumbing to the poisoned wound and never being entombed in the Chaos-tainted temple.

3a. Luther would allow Lion El'Jonson be blown up to bits aboard his battle barge during Saroshi treacherous attack.

3b. Lion would not exile Luther (and later Astelan) to Caliban, so there would never be any dissention in the ranks of Dark Angels.

4. Imperial Fists would be becalmed in the warp instead of Death Guard. They actually were, and only "Eisenstein" unwitting intervention showed them away out of the trap. But what if "Eisenstein" would have never made it out of Isstvan system?

And the unthinkable:

What if the Emperor would favour Word Bearers' creed over the secular Imperial Truth? What if Roboute Guilliman would find himself in the shoes of Lorgar, his legion kneeling in the ashes of ravaged Ulramar, their entire kingdom put to the sword for not worshipping the Emperor as a god he so clearly is? It is unlikely in the extreme (to say the least), I know, but what if? happy.gif

Erborn said:

If the Emperor be more tolerant in his views, his sons might have never rebelled.

Unlikely - the Heresy wasn't purely a rebellion, afterall. As I've said, it is really easy to look at the Heresy and blame the Emperor for the whole thing... but that's really not the case. There are, afterall, two sides to the war. Chaos is just as culpable as the Emperor, IMO, if not moreso (as powerful as the Emperor is, he was at the time still bound by the perceptions of an individual being within linear time... no such limitations exist for the Chaos Gods).

Even then, it does come back down to the Primarchs themselves; as you've said, we have to live with the consequences of our actions. Lorgar, after being told that he's going too slowly and that he should get a move on (the judgement is not purely a matter of "I'm not a god, stop raising churches in my name") sought out the old gods of a religion he'd spent his early life trying to eliminate. Magnus made deals with daemons and dabbled in whatever lore he could find because he never considered that there could be dangerous knowledge, and without ever seeing that there could be unforeseen and unpleasant consequences to his actions. Kurze's mental state is frankly screwed up at the best of times, given his upbringing and the horrific, painful visions he's exposed to... so there's no telling how far he went with the atrocities he was condemned for. Peturabo was never actually judged and found wanting... he personally felt slighted (though how much of this was the whispered discontent of a Word Bearers Chaplain?)...

Did any of them consider the consequences of their choices?

Erborn said:

The Gods themselves - by the admission of their own heralds - were prepared to work with the Emperor, not plotting against him. No, no matter how brilliant the False Emperor's 'great plan' was, the man dug his own grave. And even worse, he is now dragging the whole edifice of the Imperium with him.

Never trust a daemon, especially if it's telling the truth (because if it's telling the truth, it knows that the truth is, in that situation, far more beneficial to its own agenda than deception). It's far easier to seduce a new convert to your cause if you make it look like you've already tried to be reasonable.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Never trust a daemon, especially if it's telling the truth (because if it's telling the truth, it knows that the truth is, in that situation, far more beneficial to its own agenda than deception). It's far easier to seduce a new convert to your cause if you make it look like you've already tried to be reasonable.

A popular cliche, but - really - why should we NOT trust the daemons? They are immortal spirits who saw the birth of the galaxy and are a font of accumulated knowledge. In one of the ancient tongues the word 'daemon' means the 'wise'. Certainly, it would be a folly to heed all their words, but it is equally true for any advisors. After all, an advisor - whether daemonic or not - merely gives his opinion on the topic, with all the preconceptions he has. So why the daemons should be singled out as particularly untrustworthy? Merely because the truth they tell is often ugly and difficult to swallow? But tell me, who is a better friend - the one who tells you the truth no matter how difficult it is, or the one who is lies to you or keeps you ignorant of the unfolding events and possible dangers the future holds out of a misguided notion that you're 'not ready to learn the truth', that 'the truth would do more harm than a lie'?

Granted, daemons as allies and advisors aren't perfect. They always have their own agenda and hidden goals they strive to achieve, often at your expense. But then who doesn't? No advisor is truly innocent of that particular sin. Each has its own beliefs, preconceptions and ideas of what is good or bad, and each tries to impose his ways upon the listener. It is only natural, and the listener forgets that simple truth at his own peril.

Besides, ask yourself this: if you would benefit from the deal, does it concern you that daemon will get something out of it for himself? gran_risa.gif

Erborn said:

A popular cliche, but - really - why should we NOT trust the daemons?

Nice avatar, heretic. gui%C3%B1o.gif

Alex

We should not trust the Daemons, because they feed off from raw emotions. Would you trust a Bloodthirster with your army? Would you trust Slaanesh with your daughter? Knowing they are literally the essence behind the acts of psychopaths and rapists, only they do not have any inhibitions whatsoever?

Erborn said:

A popular cliche, but - really - why should we NOT trust the daemons? They are immortal spirits who saw the birth of the galaxy and are a font of accumulated knowledge.

Because a daemon also knows the ends it leads unwitting mortals to. Daemons are cruelty and malice given form, inherently vicious and loathsome in intent because a manifestation in the material universe is one of the few opportunities they have to inflict suffering, pain and despair, and these things are as nectar and ambrosia to the Ruinous Powers.

The war itself seems to have been the goal for Chaos. What slaughter does Khorne get from swift and total victory that it cannot gain from ten millennia of conflict? What joy does Nurgle gain from the swift death of the Imperium that it could not get from a hundred centuries of stagnation and decay. What sensations could Slaanesh experience with the singular dominance of one force over all others, that cannot be found amongst in the countless warring civilisations that have existed since the Heresy ended? What change could Tzeentch engineer after Horus' successes that could measure up to his failure at the end, and the countless conspiracies and revolutions that have come since.

Chaos, and thus the Daemons, gain more from the torments of war than from the victory of their champion.

I know daemons; I have studied their methods and the powers of their patrons , and I have studied the ways they might be put to mortal use . There is no benevolence there, only a promise of ill-intent wrapped within the most tempting lie of all: a mistold truth.

I nominate that for post of the year. You used citations. That was spectacular.

Although, to go back to LockLock's comment about trusting Slaanesh with your daughter: "I'll have her back by 10, sir. IN WARP TIME"

Captain Ventris said:

Although, to go back to LockLock's comment about trusting Slaanesh with your daughter: "I'll have her back by 10, sir. IN WARP TIME"

Hmm, sure... As long as my Grey Knight son goes with you. :P

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Because a daemon also knows the ends it leads unwitting mortals to. Daemons are cruelty and malice given form, inherently vicious and loathsome in intent because a manifestation in the material universe is one of the few opportunities they have to inflict suffering, pain and despair, and these things are as nectar and ambrosia to the Ruinous Powers.

The war itself seems to have been the goal for Chaos. What slaughter does Khorne get from swift and total victory that it cannot gain from ten millennia of conflict? What joy does Nurgle gain from the swift death of the Imperium that it could not get from a hundred centuries of stagnation and decay. What sensations could Slaanesh experience with the singular dominance of one force over all others, that cannot be found amongst in the countless warring civilisations that have existed since the Heresy ended? What change could Tzeentch engineer after Horus' successes that could measure up to his failure at the end, and the countless conspiracies and revolutions that have come since.

Chaos, and thus the Daemons, gain more from the torments of war than from the victory of their champion.

Exactly! And that's the point!

Complete and crushing victory over all of your enemies - contrary to the popular belief - will not bring an era of peace and prosperity, but will result in stagnation and a slow death of the empire. A happy and quiet people are not great conquerors, but fat 'burgers'. And long years of peace bring out not the best, but the wost in humans as the overwhelming boredom descends upon them.

Only in eternal struggle for survival lies human salvation. Imagine, what slaughter could be visited upon human foes if human soldiers would embrace Khorne? What wonders of resilience be available for humanity if it would only accept the patronage of Nurgle? How unwavering would be human passion and resolve in the face of new obstacles under the benevolent gaze of Slaanesh? And to what heights of wisdom and understanding will the human race rise under tutelage of Tzeentch?

The quest for the ascension would be a long and bloody one, and some humans are bound to suffer and fall along the way, but such are the ways of evolution. Weak die so the strong might endure, strengthening the race as a whole. Countless alien races and heretic human societies would be crushed by the might of this Imperium, and the Gods of Chaos would feast upon billions of souls and look with favour on their chosen children. And in the end, human race would reap its ultimate reward - the one eldar once almost earned, but turned away from out of cowardice. Humanity will transcend its mortal heritage and become one with the Empyrean - a race of immortal beings of godlike power, entire universe theirs for the taking.

More like nomed by the Chaos gods..

Erborn said:

Exactly! And that's the point!

Complete and crushing victory over all of your enemies - contrary to the popular belief - will not bring an era of peace and prosperity, but will result in stagnation and a slow death of the empire. A happy and quiet people are not great conquerors, but fat 'burgers'. And long years of peace bring out not the best, but the wost in humans as the overwhelming boredom descends upon them.

Only in eternal struggle for survival lies human salvation. Imagine, what slaughter could be visited upon human foes if human soldiers would embrace Khorne? What wonders of resilience be available for humanity if it would only accept the patronage of Nurgle? How unwavering would be human passion and resolve in the face of new obstacles under the benevolent gaze of Slaanesh? And to what heights of wisdom and understanding will the human race rise under tutelage of Tzeentch?

The quest for the ascension would be a long and bloody one, and some humans are bound to suffer and fall along the way, but such are the ways of evolution. Weak die so the strong might endure, strengthening the race as a whole. Countless alien races and heretic human societies would be crushed by the might of this Imperium, and the Gods of Chaos would feast upon billions of souls and look with favour on their chosen children. And in the end, human race would reap its ultimate reward - the one eldar once almost earned, but turned away from out of cowardice. Humanity will transcend its mortal heritage and become one with the Empyrean - a race of immortal beings of godlike power, entire universe theirs for the taking.

Fanon banned.

Erborn said:

Humanity will transcend its mortal heritage and become one with the Empyrean - a race of immortal beings of godlike power, entire universe theirs for the taking.

Or... the Immaterium floods into the material universe, unmaking everything it touches in a never-ending tide of impossibility, until only the Warp remains, and all that once was part of the material universe ceases to be.

Chaos offers no salvation, only annihilation... and whether you are in league with the Ruinous Powers or in opposition to them, one thing remains true: a daemon is at its most dangerous if it manages to convince you that it is not a threat.