Deep Fluff questions from post Horus Heresy

By Gribble_the_Munchkin, in Deathwatch Gamemasters

Greetings all,

Got some questions about the period directly after the Horus Heresy relating to the changes that happened to the Astartes, particularly to the Space Wolves.

At the end of the Horus Heresy, the Wolves haven't really seen any huge decimations in their ranks as the three legions on Terra and the three legions on Isstvan did (Salamanders were down to 7 companies, Ravenguard to 3,000 marines). Given their numbers must have been high before the heresy (since one of their functions was to annihilate other legions should they turn rogue) where did all the space wolves go?

They spawned only a single sucessor chapter (the wolf brothers) and these went weird and had to be destroyed. If we assume that the Wolf Brothers were chapter sized (about 1000 troops) and the space wolves would have number tens of thousands of troops, at the very least, where did the remaining wolves go?

Option 1) The Space Wolves stopped replacing loses until they were down to 1000 odd men. In which case, where is the geneseed from the slain? Do the wolves still have it on ice in the fang?

Option 2) they split down the middle, half their troops going to the wolf brothers and half staying with the space wolves, when the wolf brothers were exterminated, the space wolves suffered heavy losses, knocking them down to their current level.In which case, why did the wolf brothers all go weird in such large numbers? Surely with so many existing space wolves in their ranks, only the new wolf brothers would have been affected by the flaws, the existing marines would have had pure fenrisian geneseed.

Option 3) chasing the retreating chaos forces the wolves got into some epic battle or series of battles sufficient to reduce them in number to their current levels. Given that this would be a MAJOR battle indeed, ranking alongside the slaughter at isstvan, seems strange there is no mention of it.

Option 4) A wizard did it.

Of course, the real reason is simply that its an area of fluff no one seems to have published about yet and i'm fine with that, but for my own satisfaction, i'd like to come up with a good answer. So my question. What happened to reduce the formerly numerous Space wolf Legion of tens (possibly hundreds) of thousands, down to its current level (somewhere between 1000 and 2000)? What happened to the Geneseed? What happened to the marines?

Another thing to think about. When the Thousand Sons risk everything to attack the Fang in M32, the Space wolves ar at a strength of some 1700 marines, so whatever happened, had lon since happened by then.

Gribble_the_Munchkin said:

Greetings all,

Got some questions about the period directly after the Horus Heresy relating to the changes that happened to the Astartes, particularly to the Space Wolves.

At the end of the Horus Heresy, the Wolves haven't really seen any huge decimations in their ranks as the three legions on Terra and the three legions on Isstvan did (Salamanders were down to 7 companies, Ravenguard to 3,000 marines). Given their numbers must have been high before the heresy (since one of their functions was to annihilate other legions should they turn rogue) where did all the space wolves go?

They spawned only a single sucessor chapter (the wolf brothers) and these went weird and had to be destroyed. If we assume that the Wolf Brothers were chapter sized (about 1000 troops) and the space wolves would have number tens of thousands of troops, at the very least, where did the remaining wolves go?

Option 1) The Space Wolves stopped replacing loses until they were down to 1000 odd men. In which case, where is the geneseed from the slain? Do the wolves still have it on ice in the fang?

Option 2) they split down the middle, half their troops going to the wolf brothers and half staying with the space wolves, when the wolf brothers were exterminated, the space wolves suffered heavy losses, knocking them down to their current level.In which case, why did the wolf brothers all go weird in such large numbers? Surely with so many existing space wolves in their ranks, only the new wolf brothers would have been affected by the flaws, the existing marines would have had pure fenrisian geneseed.

Option 3) chasing the retreating chaos forces the wolves got into some epic battle or series of battles sufficient to reduce them in number to their current levels. Given that this would be a MAJOR battle indeed, ranking alongside the slaughter at isstvan, seems strange there is no mention of it.

Option 4) A wizard did it.

Of course, the real reason is simply that its an area of fluff no one seems to have published about yet and i'm fine with that, but for my own satisfaction, i'd like to come up with a good answer. So my question. What happened to reduce the formerly numerous Space wolf Legion of tens (possibly hundreds) of thousands, down to its current level (somewhere between 1000 and 2000)? What happened to the Geneseed? What happened to the marines?

Another thing to think about. When the Thousand Sons risk everything to attack the Fang in M32, the Space wolves ar at a strength of some 1700 marines, so whatever happened, had lon since happened by then.

I think the answer I've seen the most on the topic is that the SWs took heavy casualties in wiping out the Thousand Sons and the fact they only recruit from Fenris (which isn't heavily populated to begin with) means they can't sustain huge numbers. If you'll recall, the original SM Chapters were supposed to number around 10,000, and this number makes sense given the current number of Wolves in operation (and the fact that only one separation took place). It was only later that the numbers of Horus Heresy-era Chapters was inflated to 100,000 or more, and it's this number that leads to the need for some sort of explanation for why the Space Wolves' numbers are so few. Given that there's no official explanation out there, I just consider their numbers (though even their current numbers is the source of some debate) to be the result of heavy fighting during the HH. Or, it can fuel potential story ideas for GMs looking to make a SW successor Chapter.

Option 4 isn't as bizzare as normal in this case.

Remember, they had to invade Prospero..that may well account for the lack of wolves..

Durandal7 said:

Option 4 isn't as bizzare as normal in this case.

Remember, they had to invade Prospero..that may well account for the lack of wolves..

Yep, that's a good bet and as good a reason as any to use as an explanation.

Also, keep in mind that we don't really know how many Lost Companies there have been. Obviously the 13th was the first, but there have undoubtedly been many more since then.

Gribble_the_Munchkin said:

At the end of the Horus Heresy, the Wolves haven't really seen any huge decimations in their ranks as the three legions on Terra and the three legions on Isstvan did (Salamanders were down to 7 companies, Ravenguard to 3,000 marines). Given their numbers must have been high before the heresy (since one of their functions was to annihilate other legions should they turn rogue) where did all the space wolves go?

Same place everyone else went.

Astartes casualties during the Horus Heresy (a period lasting several years between the Scouring of Istvaan and the Siege of Terra, most of which we don't know about) and the Scouring (the era that followed, covering everything from the aftermath of the Siege of Terra up to the introduction of the Codex Astartes) were colossal. The Legions were huge - typically over a hundred thousand warriors strong each, with the largest of them (the Ultramarines and Word Bearers) being more than twice that. From those figures (mentioned by one of the authors of the Heresy series as being the 'official' values that they work to) that there were around twice as many Space Marines alive during the Great Crusade as exist in the modern Imperium at any one time.

At the end of the Scouring, there were only sufficient Ultramarines remaining to produce 36 Successor Chapters... and the Ultramarines were the largest Legion and weren't heavily involved in the Heresy itself. That's a reduction in strength of just over 85%, for a Legion that had numbered a quarter of a million warriors at its peak.

Everyone suffered similarly - each Legion suffered tens of thousands of casualties, losses which could not easily be replaced at any speed. Every victory and every defeat throughout the Heresy and the Scouring afterwards was a costly blow to the Legionnes Astartes.

Also Remember the Wolves do NOT follow the Codex, even remotely. They currently have 12 great Companys, and they do not count Blood Claws as full battle brothers. it is VERY likely that each great company numbers many more than 100 warriors, and always has. They also have their own deal with the Navigator clans. giving them many more ships than most Chapters. the High lords leave them alone because they would be to big of a problem to deal with. an original legion beloved by the populous. They are loyal, thus not a problem. I thought also that the original fluff(they change it every few years) had 2 successor chapters of which one was destroyed and the other not named.

Colonelchuck said:

Also Remember the Wolves do NOT follow the Codex, even remotely. They currently have 12 great Companys, and they do not count Blood Claws as full battle brothers. it is VERY likely that each great company numbers many more than 100 warriors, and always has. They also have their own deal with the Navigator clans. giving them many more ships than most Chapters. the High lords leave them alone because they would be to big of a problem to deal with. an original legion beloved by the populous. They are loyal, thus not a problem. I thought also that the original fluff(they change it every few years) had 2 successor chapters of which one was destroyed and the other not named.

The last I heard, Ragnar's Great Company was one of the largest with about 200 members. With all 12 Great Companies, there's probably around 1,800-2,000 Space Wolves. Whether Blood Claws are counted in those numbers or not is a topic of contention, but I prefer to keep them out. If that's the case, the number of Space Wolves could easily double since so many don't make it past the rank of Blood Claw. And, that's not counting all of the Space Wolves who aren't with one of the 12 GCs like the Wolfblades or members of a lost Company. All told, it wouldn't surprise me to find out there were 5,000 or so Space Marines running around the galaxy with Russ' geneseed.

I think it´s necessary to consider the sources when it comes down to the size of the Legions Pre-heresy. The Index Astartes trows totaly diffent numbers than authors like Dembsky-Bowden. Chris Cook numbers the Emerperors Childern in the index Astartes at their high times at 30 Great Companies Companies (30,000) and tells them to be one of the greates legions. Dembsky-Bowden tells us the Word Bearers were 100,000 strong and the Ulras even more when older sources speak of 70.000 Marines at Istavan 3 in total.

Read between the lines...

Vendettar said:

I think it´s necessary to consider the sources when it comes down to the size of the Legions Pre-heresy. The Index Astartes trows totaly diffent numbers than authors like Dembsky-Bowden. Chris Cook numbers the Emerperors Childern in the index Astartes at their high times at 30 Great Companies Companies (30,000) and tells them to be one of the greates legions. Dembsky-Bowden tells us the Word Bearers were 100,000 strong and the Ulras even more when older sources speak of 70.000 Marines at Istavan 3 in total.

Read between the lines...

Like most of the 40k "canon," you really just have to pick and choose what fits best for you personally. There are so many conflicting stats and stories out there that nothing is really set in stone. That may very well be why GW/BL themselves say that there's no way to know the real truth.

Vendettar said:

Dembsky-Bowden tells us the Word Bearers were 100,000 strong and the Ulras even more when older sources speak of 70.000 Marines at Istavan 3 in total.

According to Aaron Dembski-Bowden - in this post here - the typical Legion is about 100,000 strong. Given the way the writing process is described as working for the Horus Heresy novels (that is, all the authors, editors and other relevant individuals involved gather together regularly and are in frequent contact in ordert to maintain themes, events and characters, plan the sequence of books, etc), I think we take take it as given that those numbers are the ones favoured and used by those people working on the Heresy novels (and are thus the most "up to date" version).

Beyond that, I've never personally regarded the Index Astartes articles as anything other than in-character pieces with their own inherent biases and natural inaccuracies. Anything an Index Astartes article says about the Heresy should really be regarded with the same degree of skepticism as we'd view a document claiming to provide accurate information about events that took place in 8,000 BCE.

Agreed, not to mention that virtually everything written in in-universe present time is written almost exclusively from the Imperial Perspective. A perspective tainted with religious dogman and 10,000 years of disinformation..

Taken from javascript:void(0);/*1311048239734*/

The Great Companies Edit The Great Companies section Edit

240px-Grand_Annulus_2.jpg The current Company Badges of the 12 Great Companies, as displayed on the Grand Annulus; notice the missing badge of the 13th Company

Instead of dividing into Successor Chapters as per the requirements of the Codex Astartes , the Space Wolves Legion continued to split itself into 12 Great Companies (a Great Company being closer in size to an entire normal Space Marine Chapter than the company of 100 Astartes that normally comprises a Chapter's constituent units), with a 13th Company named in honour of a large group of Space Wolves who had disappeared during the Horus Heresy . This 13th Great Company came to represent all the Great Companies in the Space Wolves' history that had been destroyed, lost on campaign or had recanted their oath of loyalty to the Great Wolf.

According to this from this Wikia, the Space Wolves would be at about 12,000 or more strong with the survivors of the 13th company returning from their hiatus. Now of course anyone can edit this page, but it sounds about right and woe betide the Imperial stoogie who tries to tell them to reduce their numbers...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Vendettar said:

Dembsky-Bowden tells us the Word Bearers were 100,000 strong and the Ulras even more when older sources speak of 70.000 Marines at Istavan 3 in total.

According to Aaron Dembski-Bowden - in this post here - the typical Legion is about 100,000 strong. Given the way the writing process is described as working for the Horus Heresy novels (that is, all the authors, editors and other relevant individuals involved gather together regularly and are in frequent contact in ordert to maintain themes, events and characters, plan the sequence of books, etc), I think we take take it as given that those numbers are the ones favoured and used by those people working on the Heresy novels (and are thus the most "up to date" version).

Why should on take the "newer" numbers of Authors that write a novel series from which both BL and GW are saying "Dude, NOT canon!" as more actual and updated? BTW would that makes Dembski-Bowden´s Istvan to a battel of close to a Million Astartes which simply does not fit wit his desciption of the scene. Sorry but too wicked in my opinion. Falls into same "OMFG"-Box like Matt Wards retarded BA and GK fluff.

Vendettar said:

Why should on take the "newer" numbers of Authors that write a novel series from which both BL and GW are saying "Dude, NOT canon!" as more actual and updated? BTW would that makes Dembski-Bowden´s Istvan to a battel of close to a Million Astartes which simply does not fit wit his desciption of the scene. Sorry but too wicked in my opinion. Falls into same "OMFG"-Box like Matt Wards retarded BA and GK fluff.

Istvaan at 700,000 Astartes? Great - a decent-sized battle to start the Heresy with.

Science fiction, science fantasy, space opera... all have long traditions of giving out numbers that are inappropriately small for planetary, interplanetary, interstellar and galaxy-wide conflicts. The Horus Heresy should be the bloodiest and most cataclysmic conflict in human history, with orders of magnitude more dead than the entire death toll of World War II...

At only 10,000 warriors per legion, and without effective support by Imperial Army forces (because few worlds were established or stable enough to provide the same colossal mass of soldiers that the modern Imperium can with the Imperial Guard), the Imperium would never have conquered around a million worlds (approximately the number of worlds in the Imperium, a value that has remained more-or-less stable for ten millennia) in a mere two centuries (the oft-stated duration of the Great Crusade). At 100,000 warriors per legion, it's still a stretch but it's far more likely.

The larger numbers work better in the context of a galaxy-spanning war. The smaller numbers make it seem (comparatively) like a pub brawl.

ok so that i understand u right: you think it was not possible to throw millions of imperial solldiers into the crusade but hundred of thosands of Space Marines. And from where should those masses of Astartes come when it´s not possible to muster millions of normal men? serio.gif

And why should a couple of thosands of marines not be able to take world? They shocktrooper tactics where basically the same in WH30k as they are in 40k. and yes, all the expediton fleets had backup. From the Legi cybernetica, from the Titan Legions, from the Imperial Navy, from the Imerial Guard, perhaps even from entire near-human world(Squats, Ogryns, Halflings, whaterver else there may bee). No one ever said it have been the allmighty Atartes alone who have conquered the galaxy...

i think the point of the Heresy was never to be the biggest bloodiest battle but the schism it caused to the imperium when the bravest, the most loyal, the larger than life Space Marines and the sons of the Emperor turn on their father. the epic scale of betrayal by the most trusted sons is what makes the heresy what ist is, not the body-count it left in it´s wake. my opinion...

Space wolves may not follow the Codex Astartes and maintain more troops than an average Chapter, however that doesn't mean they are defiantly ignoring the political problems maintaining a full Legion would cause in the Imperium. Following attacking Prospero and the scouring of the Imperium of traitor Legions following the Heresy the Space Wolves would probably have been severely reduced in number. They then founded at least one other Space Marine Chapter (and it is possible if unlikely they founded others not mentioned). So with all these factors you have a Legion at a fraction of its original strength.

Then time comes into play.

If the Space Wolves are (or were) aiming for a Chapter strength of say 2000-3000 (or whatever the actual target number is irrelevant) then over 10,000 years they simply did not replenish numbers. In fact it probably wouldn't even take them that long. By the 32 Millenium they were probably down to the target figure.

Vendettar said:

ok so that i understand u right: you think it was not possible to throw millions of imperial solldiers into the crusade but hundred of thosands of Space Marines. And from where should those masses of Astartes come when it´s not possible to muster millions of normal men? serio.gif

It's hardly that simple.

Vendettar said:

And why should a couple of thosands of marines not be able to take world? They shocktrooper tactics where basically the same in WH30k as they are in 40k. and yes, all the expediton fleets had backup. From the Legi cybernetica, from the Titan Legions, from the Imperial Navy, from the Imerial Guard, perhaps even from entire near-human world(Squats, Ogryns, Halflings, whaterver else there may bee). No one ever said it have been the allmighty Atartes alone who have conquered the galaxy...

Thing is, it's a mistake to assume that everything that the Imperium currently has, they've always had. The Imperium has changed a hell of a lot.

The Legionnes Astartes are the spearhead, the warriors on the front lines. It was the Emperor's genetically-enhanced soldiers (pre-Astartes) that conquered Terra, and it was the earliest Astartes who made the push out from Terra at the very start of the Great Crusade. Everything else took time to develop.

The Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy didn't exist until post-Heresy. In their place was the Imperial Army, which bore little resemblance to what followed, and was far smaller and far less well-organised (the modern Imperium has the Departmento Munitorum to oversee the logistics for the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy... it didn't exist during the Crusade, and raising millions of billions of soldiers isn't all that easy). The infrastructure to raise and maintain a galaxy-wide armed force didn't exist... because it didn't need to in the beginning. Terra and Mars supported the Astartes and what little of the Legio Cybernetica and Legio Titannicus existed (remembering that each Titan Legion comes from one Forge World, and those were long-established but only just rejoining the Imperium as the expedition fleets found them... so there weren't that many Titans to start with), and the Crusade moved outwards. New worlds made compliant, particularly ones made compliant through warfare, will be in no state to muster armies on the scale that the Imperium requires in the 41st Millennium... but the Legionnes Astartes aren't dependent upon those worlds - they receive their recruits from Terra (at first) and their Primarchs' homeworlds (later) and their wargear comes from Mars. It's only towards the end of the Crusade that any sort of civilian infrastructure begins to take shape.

No, the Astartes didn't conquer the entire galaxy - amongst other things, the Imperium only covers a tiny proportion of the inhabitable worlds in the galaxy - but they were the ones doing the brunt of the work, especially at the beginning. The Great Crusade was built around them (because that's what the Emperor made them for), with everything else added in to support it (why do you think the Primarchs and their Legions were the ones in charge?).

The Heresy should be cataclysmic - it basically tore the Imperium apart and forced the survivors to rebuild it as best they could. It's a war that raged across the galaxy for several years and left a lasting impression still felt ten thousand years later, built upon a betrayal believed to be impossible and spearheaded by supernaturally-potent killers. It should be at least a little bit bigger than World War II... afterall, that was a war on only one planet, during a time when human civilisation was only just beginning to develop Nuclear weapons. I find it hard to believe that any galaxy-spanning war could be smaller than one that raged over only one planet.

And that's all I'm saying on the matter. It should be quite clear enough what I'm talking about.

To answer the poster's question.

The Space Wolves suffered serious losses to the Thousand Suns on Prospero. Following Prospero, they moved their fleet to make contact with Jagatai Khan to aid them in their Orc campaign. However, the Space Wolves met with a sizable Alpha Legion fleet and asked the White Scars for aid. Jagatai Khan would have sent aid, but he had orders from Rogal Dorn to return to Terra immediately. The Space Wolves then went on to fight off the Alpha Legion, of which they took further major losses, then make best speed for Terra.


A fun fact about this tid-bit. When Leman Russ received the message from Jagatai Khan that the White Scars could not sent aid, Leman Russ simply 'shrugged his shoulders.' What a guy :)

This is straight from the Horus Heresy: Collected Visions art and resource book.