Pyskers in DH

By Racerx2, in Dark Heresy Rules Questions

I had a quick question for experienced WH40K RPG players. Does everyone convert the Dh rules to RT or DW? or do you keep the rules for DH as-is and use the others for their games. I get the feel if they could go back, the rules would look like the RT rules. :)

I don't come on here much so if I missed a thread regarding this, my apologies.

Jeff

Excuse the typos, I started this from my IPAD.

Basically I just want to know if it's best i use the Psychic rules for DH still, or convert to the new styles that the newer games use.

In Ascension, there is a more or less similar method of using Fettered/Unfettered/Pushed powers.

But Ascension is for characters over 13000 XP.

I like the way DH handles psychic powers. Forces you to be careful with what you do, cause you can end up with quite the collection of Psychic Phenomenas if you're not. The fact that you can, at one point, just handwave it and never get Phenomenas unless you really want to hit hard is a bit sad, I think. But it's your call :)

Stormast said:

In Ascension, there is a more or less similar method of using Fettered/Unfettered/Pushed powers.

But Ascension is for characters over 13000 XP.

I like the way DH handles psychic powers. Forces you to be careful with what you do, cause you can end up with quite the collection of Psychic Phenomenas if you're not. The fact that you can, at one point, just handwave it and never get Phenomenas unless you really want to hit hard is a bit sad, I think. But it's your call :)

Which is why the system as presented in Ascension is flawed, because it presents the mechanics for the options, but doesn't bring with it the choices and consequences those mechanics represent in Rogue Trader, Deathwatch and Black Crusade.

For example, consider three Telekinesis powers from the Dark Heresy rulebook: Fling, Force Bolt and Psychic Blade. A Psy Rating 4 character with a WP of 55, using the Fettered/Unfettered/Push power levels can produce the following results, assuming median rolls to use the powers: Fettered (PR2): 16, Unfettered (PR4): 27, Push (PR7) 43

  • Fling allows the character to throw a mass up to 15m, moving 25kg which deals dealing 1d10+5 I damage when Fettered, increasing to 75kg and 1d10+15 damage Unfettered, and 150kg and 1d10+30 damage when Pushed.
  • Force Bolt produces a 1d10+5 I bolt out to 50m when Fettered, increasing to 1d10+7 I when Unfettered and 1d10+11 I when Pushed
  • Psychic Blade produces a 1d10+10 R, Pen 10 blade, but cannot reliably manifest when Fettered.

So, Fling increases in effectiveness dramatically, while Force Bolt doesn't really change all that much and Psychic Blade is unaltered by the power level a character chooses, so once you're powerful enough. None of those powers are particularly hindered by being used Fettered, though.

So, back to the drawing board - change the three powers as follows, so that Fling moves an amount of mass equal to 5kg per Psy Rating, and throws it 3x Psy Rating metres, with each level of overbleed adding +5kg per Psy Rating to the mass flung, Force Bolt to have a range of 10m x Psy Rating and dealing 1d10+ Psy Rating damage, and Psychic Blade dealing 1d10+ 2x Psy Rating damage with a pen of 2x Psy Rating. Now we go back to the examples...

  • Fling allows the character to throw a mass up to 6m, moving 10kg which deals dealing 1d10+2 I damage when Fettered, increasing to 12m, 60kg and 1d10+12 damage Unfettered, and 21m, 210kg and 1d10+42 damage when Pushed.
  • Force Bolt produces a 1d10+2 I bolt out to 20m when Fettered, increasing to 1d10+6 I out to 40m when Unfettered and 1d10+13 I out to 70m when Pushed
  • Psychic Blade produces a 1d10+4 R, Pen 4 blade when Fettered, a 1d10+8 R, Pen 8 blade when Unfettered, and a 1d10+14 R, Pen 14 blade when Pushed.

Fling doesn't change too much, as it already scaled due to the overbleed effects, but the differences are now more pronounced. The bottom of the scale is lower, but the top is higher. Personally, I wouldn't have designed Fling that way, as its high end power scales up too severely, but that's a matter of individual power design. Force Bolt scales more clearly, gaining range with power and risk, but offering little potency for those who don't wish to risk Phenomena (which is the point). Psychic Blade now actually scales by power, and varies from something roughly equivalent to a Chainsword, to a weapon that might make a Space Marine think twice, depending on the power you put in and the risk you choose to face.

And that's the point - Dark Heresy psykers almost never use more than 1 or 2 dice for their powers unless they absolutely have to, because the benefits of increased dice are uncertain (being random) and the baseline powers are potent enough without needing it, so the addition of Fettered powers in Ascension (adding to already potent psykers) doesn't change their inclinations, it just gives them more power and less risk, particularly when Unnatural Willpower gets added in. Psykers in RT and DW are forced to make a choice with every power - a power used without risk is inherently weaker than one where the psyker pushes his capabilities. That choice, and the diminished potency with which Fettered powers operate, also helps turn Unnatural Willpower from an absolute game changer to a powerful but not insurmountable advantage (Unnatural Willpower in RT and DW adds its multiplier to Psy Rating after choosing a power level, so a PR 8 Farseer with Unnatural Willpower (x2) can use Fettered powers at PR6, Unfettered powers at PR10 and Pushed powers at PR15).

And that's just with swapping out powers that scale on Willpower Bonus for otherwise-identical ones that scale based on Psy Rating instead.

I do agree with the maths here.

I like DH's core rules for the powers, though. It makes you reluctant to go crazy and throw all your dice "just because I can". The problem lies within Ascension (and within Unnatural Willpower, and powers scaling on WP bonus). I was just mentioning the possibility ;)

As psychic powers in RT and DW seem more balanced and somewhat less powerfull (highly depending on DH's psyker's WP) they are also much safer to use.

In DH you have 10% chance on phenomena on each dice you use while in RT it's 10% no with no effect of number of dices. I know DH powers system is far from perfect but I don't really like the RT one (haven't really played it but unless I missed something in the rules it's the same difficulty to project force bolt and force barrage (however it's called in RT)).

I'll have to try swaping WP and Psy Rating while adding +5 to phenomena roll for every 9 other than first (as "push" on Psy Rating in ascention suggest, I still don't know how multiple 9's are handled there, is it only one phenomena or can you have 4 phenomenas with +15 each if you aquire three nines?) to reduce chance to have my head blown up by the warp.

Four 9s would mean one Psychic Phenomena with +15 to its D100 roll to see what happens.

Thanks, all these are great points and along the lines of my thoughts. So the big question now is, why are there still speerate rules in DH? Couldn't FFG just make the RT/DW rules the standard in errata? I guess I am confused why DH keeps having their own potentially flawed ruleset. I am thinking they want DH to have this different mechanic for a reason, or it's just easier than changing. :)

So, for DH (and Ascension) is better the original system.

Racerx said:

Couldn't FFG just make the RT/DW rules the standard in errata?

To do that properly would require re-writing essentially the entire psychic powers chapter (because all the powers and associated talents would need to be rewritten to fit) - that's 20-30 pages of text.

That's too big for errata.

As it stands, the systems in RT, DW and BC are all different; the same core mechanics and principles apply, but there are differences in execution in several places, so a single appropriate interpretation would have to be devised for this hypothetical rewrite.

I see the different Psyker systems as basically different schools of how to bend the warp to your will.

Comparable like those old Eastern Kung-Fu movies: "My Dragon-sytle Kung-Fu against your Panda-Style Karate".

For example the pre-Ascension Imperial Psykers are relatively raw when wielding Psy-Powers (higher chance of Phenomenon because of not yet Fettered/Unfettered-Ability), and later learn to wield it more savely in Rank 9+.

While Librarians otoh start the campaing already properly trained and use differing Powers, thus are much saver in their psyking.

That makes sense, and I understand the reasoning with so much of the book devoted to it. I can handle the possible imbalance with house rules, but wanted the communities experience. I have started a DH game and RT, so that's what prompted the questions. Having different psychic rules for each book made for a but harder crossover is all, but it all works fine either way. My thoughts are that maybeeach Psyker is trained differently thus the risks are as well as HOWE they control the warp differ etc.

Thanks for all the advice, I appreciate it!

Noctus said:

I see the different Psyker systems as basically different schools of how to bend the warp to your will.

Comparable like those old Eastern Kung-Fu movies: "My Dragon-sytle Kung-Fu against your Panda-Style Karate".

For example the pre-Ascension Imperial Psykers are relatively raw when wielding Psy-Powers (higher chance of Phenomenon because of not yet Fettered/Unfettered-Ability), and later learn to wield it more savely in Rank 9+.

While Librarians otoh start the campaing already properly trained and use differing Powers, thus are much saver in their psyking.

Cool! That's basically what I felt to justify it all. My other post kind of states that very thing about just different ways to use the Warp...schools of thought.

Thanks again!

Racerx said:

Noctus said:

I see the different Psyker systems as basically different schools of how to bend the warp to your will.

Comparable like those old Eastern Kung-Fu movies: "My Dragon-sytle Kung-Fu against your Panda-Style Karate".

For example the pre-Ascension Imperial Psykers are relatively raw when wielding Psy-Powers (higher chance of Phenomenon because of not yet Fettered/Unfettered-Ability), and later learn to wield it more savely in Rank 9+.

While Librarians otoh start the campaing already properly trained and use differing Powers, thus are much saver in their psyking.

Cool! That's basically what I felt to justify it all. My other post kind of states that very thing about just different ways to use the Warp...schools of thought.

Thanks again!

Glad it's all sorted for you now!

I have some Psyker related questions and this seemed like a good spot for them.

I know that a 9 rolled on a Power Roll causes a Psychic Phenomena, what happens on a 10? Does it explode like damage dice? If so, do you have to re-roll if you already have met the threshold? If you are forced to re-roll, does the 9 still cause Psy Phen?

Thanks in advance.

No, you only reroll 10s on damage rolls - a Focus Power roll isn't a damage roll.