Combat Spells

By Einlanzer80, in Arkham Horror Second Edition

Okay, so with CotDP replacing most the original spells with powered-up versions, the spell deck (where utility is concerned) is actually pretty neat-o nowadays.

However, I still have issue with combat spells in particular, which just universally seem weaker than they should be for their costs.
I wanted to see what folks thought of a few alternative ways of handling them to help make spell-casting fighting more enjoyable and viable. Here's the list of offenders:

1. Wither - not terrible, but outdone by pretty much every magic weapon. Even though it has a 0 sanity cost, i still feel like there's something lack with it.

2. Shriveling - probably tied with Storm of Spirits as the most generally useful and fairly balanced. I include it because it is part of the same series as Wither and Dread Curse, and some potential 'fixes' modify it as well.

3. Dread Curse - Under-performs. 2 sanity is too much to pay for a single combat spell, especially when Shriveling + Wither matches it, and 2 Shrivelings beat it handedly.

4. Fist of Yog-Sothoth - Terrible, you will average +2 or so with it, for 1 sanity cost? No thanks - it gets somewhat better if you're blessed but even then it is unreliable and not usually worth using over alternatives.

5. Spectral Razor - Equally terrible. Again, 2 sanity cost and both hands tied up, and it's extremely unlikely it will ever beat Dread Curse's damage, which is already poorly balanced as it is.

7. Call of the Azure Flame - It's identical to shotgun, but it costs a sanity every round to use. It can be useful, but really, a sanity every round?


So here are a few potential solutions:

Wither/Shriveling/Dread Curse- what if these worked like utility spells instead of combat spells (debuffs)? They keep the same sanity cost and spell check, lose hand requirements, and afflict the target monster with a curse that gives all investigators a permanent +1/+2/+3 fight and a -0/-1/-2 reduction to horror and combat damage (permanent against normal monsters, one round against AO)? It might take some tweaking - but I think this has potential. To me, it makes more logical/thematic sense. Otherwise, I think Dread Curse should provide a +10 instead of a +9, so it's at least slightly better than a Wither + Shriveling.

Fist of Yog-Sothoth/Spectral Razor - what if these were true combat spells? They retain all normal characteristics, but last a full turn. It helps a bit, but they remain somewhat situational - I'm okay with that.

Azure Flame - What if, instead of paying one sanity every turn to use it, it just reduces your maximum sanity by one while in effect?

1. Wither can't match magical weapons, but it's more common to obtain.

3. Dread Curse isn't better than Shrivelling and Wither if you don't have them!

4&5. Can't argue here, but again—they're better than having nothin g .

7. What's wrong with a sanity every round? Shrivelling costs a sanity to attempt to use. You could opt to let it refresh, but the catch is you have to re-cast it each time you want to use it. During Upkeep, you could decide whether the risk of failing the spell check is worth the risk of not using the spell and effectively losing a sanity for nothing. This spell has a turn-long effect, where at best Shrivelling has a combat-long effect. If Shrivelling is balanced, this is too.

Tibs said:

1. Wither can't match magical weapons, but it's more common to obtain.

3. Dread Curse isn't better than Shrivelling and Wither if you don't have them!

4&5. Can't argue here, but again—they're better than having nothin g .

7. What's wrong with a sanity every round? Shrivelling costs a sanity to attempt to use. You could opt to let it refresh, but the catch is you have to re-cast it each time you want to use it. During Upkeep, you could decide whether the risk of failing the spell check is worth the risk of not using the spell and effectively losing a sanity for nothing. This spell has a turn-long effect, where at best Shrivelling has a combat-long effect. If Shrivelling is balanced, this is too.

1. Like I said - it isn't terrible but it does feel a little lacking. I don't think it's in as bad a shape as several of the others and could easily be left alone.

2. No it isn't, Dread Curse is in fact worse than both Wither and Shriveling in terms of reward vs. cost. I think it needs more help than anything else except Fist/Spectral Razor.

3. Better than having nothing isn't good enough though, especially when the other spells and many of the magical weapons are fairly common. The fact remains that sanity is too precious to be spent on mediocre combat spells. Powerful combat spells, okay sure, but ones that aren't any better than medium-range weapons? No thanks.

7. The problem is that it's identical to a shotgun ( a common item that has no cost or drawbacks to use) except for being magical. That alone does not justify paying a sanity every turn you use it on top of having to roll a spell-check for success. In fact, this spell perfectly exemplifies the arbitrary bias that afflicts combat spells in this game. Also, shriveling has the exceptional perk of granting the highest one-handed bonus in the game for 1 sanity, which gives you the potential of having a tremendous combat bonus (up to +12 with 2 of them). This has no such perk and is essentially a shotgun that you have to pay to use. Will you get use out of it? Sure. Is it as good as it should be for the cost? No. The same story as many other spells.

You didn't actually address my potential solutions, anyway.

Einlanzer80 said:

2. No it isn't, Dread Curse is in fact worse than both Wither and Shriveling in terms of reward vs. cost. I think it needs more help than anything else except Fist/Spectral Razor.

Tibs is being pithy. As Ben Franklin once said, a Dread Curse in the hand is worth a Wither/Shriveling combo in the Spell deck. Of course, if you removed Dread Curses from the deck, you'd increase the chance of drawing a Wither/Shriveling combo.

Einlanzer80 said:

7. The problem is that it's identical to a shotgun ( a common item that has no cost or drawbacks to use) except for being magical. That alone does not justify paying a sanity every turn you use it on top of having to roll a spell-check for success. In fact, this spell perfectly exemplifies the arbitrary bias that afflicts combat spells in this game. Also, shriveling has the exceptional perk of granting the highest one-handed bonus in the game for 1 sanity, which gives you the potential of having a tremendous combat bonus (up to +12 with 2 of them). This has no such perk and is essentially a shotgun that you have to pay to use. Will you get use out of it? Sure. Is it as good as it should be for the cost? No. The same story as many other spells.

It's a fair point, but a lot of people really like shotguns.

Your solutions are intriguing, but they're so radically different from existing spells that it would be less confusing to me if they were given new names. A permanent +2 to all Combat checks against a monster isn't a bad idea. But if I have to take down a Star Spawn, I'd rather have Shriveling.

avec said:

Einlanzer80 said:

2. No it isn't, Dread Curse is in fact worse than both Wither and Shriveling in terms of reward vs. cost. I think it needs more help than anything else except Fist/Spectral Razor.

Tibs is being pithy. As Ben Franklin once said, a Dread Curse in the hand is worth a Wither/Shriveling combo in the Spell deck. Of course, if you removed Dread Curses from the deck, you'd increase the chance of drawing a Wither/Shriveling combo.

Einlanzer80 said:

7. The problem is that it's identical to a shotgun ( a common item that has no cost or drawbacks to use) except for being magical. That alone does not justify paying a sanity every turn you use it on top of having to roll a spell-check for success. In fact, this spell perfectly exemplifies the arbitrary bias that afflicts combat spells in this game. Also, shriveling has the exceptional perk of granting the highest one-handed bonus in the game for 1 sanity, which gives you the potential of having a tremendous combat bonus (up to +12 with 2 of them). This has no such perk and is essentially a shotgun that you have to pay to use. Will you get use out of it? Sure. Is it as good as it should be for the cost? No. The same story as many other spells.

It's a fair point, but a lot of people really like shotguns.

Your solutions are intriguing, but they're so radically different from existing spells that it would be less confusing to me if they were given new names. A permanent +2 to all Combat checks against a monster isn't a bad idea. But if I have to take down a Star Spawn, I'd rather have Shriveling.

Of course - you personally would, but this does open the tactical option of weakening monsters for fighters. It's a valid concern though, I guess I was forgetting that they are the only big damage spells in the game. They should probably remain as is (it would probably cause unforeseen ripple effects to change them in that way anyway). However, I repeat that Dread Curse in particular seems a bit too weak for its costs. I'm thinking bumping it to +10 would be good enough probably. That way, it would be the most powerful "weapon" in the game - which it should be for 2 sanity.

I'm almost certain I'll use the house-rules for the other spells since there's not much danger of it affecting anything else, and Fist/Spectral Razor in particular *really* need the help.

Indeed. For me, spells are all about opportunity. If I had Shrivelling and Wither and Dread Curse, I'd use the combo before the Dread Curse. But, of course, the combo requires two checks, so if your Lore is higher than a certain point probabilities will favor casting Dread Curse.

And then, once those two spells are cast, if I need to use another massive spell during that turn I'll have to use Dread Curse. So it's not like having all three renders any of them completely useless.

Tibs said:

Indeed. For me, spells are all about opportunity. If I had Shrivelling and Wither and Dread Curse, I'd use the combo before the Dread Curse. But, of course, the combo requires two checks, so if your Lore is higher than a certain point probabilities will favor casting Dread Curse.

And then, once those two spells are cast, if I need to use another massive spell during that turn I'll have to use Dread Curse. So it's not like having all three renders any of them completely useless.

Maybe not completely useless - I don't think that can be said of anything in the game, really... but some things are not particularly well balanced, and Dread Curse, Fist of Yog-sothoth and Spectral Razor all fit that bill quite well.

1. You're looking at spell checks as if one failure ruins the turn. In reality, they are self-balancing. If you fail Dread Curse once (which is harder to pass) you lose any potential combat bonus you might have had because you lose both hands. If you fail Wither or Shriveling (which are actually easier to pass), you only lose that one hand and it's very unlikely you'll fail both unless you're trying to cast with a low lore which is dumb anyway. In truth, more often than not 2 one handers are tactically superior to 1 two hander even without considering other things because you're taking significantly less risk for only moderately less reward.

2. 1 sanity vs. 2 sanity isn't "just a one point difference" - the latter is literally twice the former. 2 sanity spells should consistently be far more powerful than 1 sanity spells, and that often isn't really the case, especially when combined with other mechanics like spell checks and hands.


When you factor in the above, Dread Curse just doesn't really cut it compared to Shriveling or Wither. It would be balanced if it:

a. only took one hand, or

b. granted a higher bonus (at least +10, ideally +12, though I can accept it being marginally weaker than 2 shrivelings just because you're a lot more likley to get 1 Dread Curse over 2 Shrivelings).

In fact, thinking about it now I'm leaning toward a. as a superior solution because it keeps it right in line with Wither and Shriveling. Plus, it would allow you the option of sacrificing even more sanity for an even more ridiculous combat bonus, which makes sense (4 sanity for +18, marvelous!).

I have no problem with the current combat spell options. You're comparing spells to magical weapons which is an unfair comparison. Spells are much more common. Consider the tomes in the unique and common item decks. There also seem to be more encounters granting spells, multiple spells, or easier checks to get spells than unique items (at least, in my experience).

Within in their respective decks, they have a similar chance of showing up. With all the expansions in play, there is an approximately 28 percent chance that a unique item drawn would be a magic weapon. Within the spell deck, there is about a 31 percent chance that a combat spell will be drawn. So they are pretty even there, but what really distinguishes them is that within the unique item deck, 9 of the 32 total are one use only while only 2 of the 38 combat spells are disposable.

Spells are generally cheaper to obtain. If you're going by regular means, you draw two spells and pick one for 5 dollars.

I am fine that, generally speaking, magic weapons are better than combat spells. With the greater frequency of drawing spells than unique items, I think they are pretty balanced.

Einlanzer80 said:

When you factor in the above, Dread Curse just doesn't really cut it compared to Shriveling or Wither. It would be balanced if it:

a. only took one hand, or

b. granted a higher bonus (at least +10, ideally +12, though I can accept it being marginally weaker than 2 shrivelings just because you're a lot more likley to get 1 Dread Curse over 2 Shrivelings).

In fact, thinking about it now I'm leaning toward a. as a superior solution because it keeps it right in line with Wither and Shriveling. Plus, it would allow you the option of sacrificing even more sanity for an even more ridiculous combat bonus, which makes sense (4 sanity for +18, marvelous!).

Option A gives me nightmares about Marie inflicting 30-odd dice (blessed, of course) against some unsuspecting Ancient One. I think I'd lean towards B, maybe with +11 dice.

One of the more interesting discussion items you'll find out here in the forum is an on-going dialogue between Tibs/Avi and Avec on the machanics of the game AND the theme of the game (I hope that I've characterized that well enough). Spells fall into the thematic part of the game...and quite honestly, though not a Lovecraft scholar, I've read enough of the work to know that spells, while powerful, do come at a stiff cost, in sharp contrast to a physical or even a magical weapon.

You're more inclined (Tibs might actually have entire spreadsheet devoted to this subject) to end up in the Asylum versus St. Mary's Hospital due to the many aspects f the game that draw on your limited sanity. I like spells ~ this goes back to my D&D days, but I also know that comparing them to weapons is sometimes a futile effort.

avec said:


Tibs is being pithy. As Ben Franklin once said, a Dread Curse in the hand is worth a Wither/Shriveling combo in the Spell deck.



I used to be pretty disappointed about the state of combat spells; I mean sure, nobody's too pleased about the fact that Spectral Razor is basically the River Docks of combat, and this fact is doubly rankling given that it costs the same as Shriveling. But at some point I decided that a certain lack of balance is okay...in fact, I'd go so far as to say that it's a good thing that there are crappy spells in there (and even that the combat spells are disproportionately crappy, as long as they see some use); after all, the exuberance and high-five-giving associated with drawing a Find Gate, for example, wouldn't be quite as pronounced if there hadn't been a chance of drawing Enchant Weapon instead.

subochre said:

Spectral Razor is basically the River Docks of combat

You are truly an Old One for thinking of this.

subochre said:

I used to be pretty disappointed about the state of combat spells; I mean sure, nobody's too pleased about the fact that Spectral Razor is basically the River Docks of combat, and this fact is doubly rankling given that it costs the same as Shriveling. But at some point I decided that a certain lack of balance is okay...in fact, I'd go so far as to say that it's a good thing that there are crappy spells in there (and even that the combat spells are disproportionately crappy, as long as they see some use); after all, the exuberance and high-five-giving associated with drawing a Find Gate, for example, wouldn't be quite as pronounced if there hadn't been a chance of drawing Enchant Weapon instead.

I would agree with you where most things are concerned, but you hit the nail on the head in describing combat spells as 'disproportionately crappy'. I just don't think they're well designed at all really and would love to figure out a good way to redo them.

Tibs said:

subochre said:

Spectral Razor is basically the River Docks of combat

You are truly an Old One for thinking of this.