About Fear of Winter

By Tiny White 2, in 2. AGoT Rules Discussion

The Revealing Plot is Fear of Winter

Can I use the Desperate Tactics to put an army char into play?

THX!

No. In order to lay the event, you would end up meeting your "one card played or put into play from hand" limit. So you wouldn't be able to resolve the event.

ktom said:

No. In order to lay the event, you would end up meeting your "one card played or put into play from hand" limit. So you wouldn't be able to resolve the event.

Great Thanks KTOM

Since we like to be technical on this forum.... what exactly does "wouldn't be able to resolve the event" mean? Could I play the event and pay the cost of returning an Army character to hand and just not be able to finish resolving the event? Or could I not play the event in the first place?

schrecklich said:

Since we like to be technical on this forum.... what exactly does "wouldn't be able to resolve the event" mean? Could I play the event and pay the cost of returning an Army character to hand and just not be able to finish resolving the event? Or could I not play the event in the first place?

For the purposes of Desperate Tactics, at a minimum you can return the Army character you are controlling that's already in-play to your hand only. I don't see any reason why you must put a different army character from your hand into play to complete and resolve the event. The text on the event cards reads like it is giving you permission to put the new Army character into play if you return the other one to your hand. If it read like you had to resolve both parts of the event, then I think it would read like "Return an Army character you control to your hand. Then put an Army character with a lower printed STR into play from your hand. At the end of the phase, return that character to your hand if it is still in play." Event cards that require both parts to be fulfilled have this type of language from what I understand.

Now I could be totally wrong, but that's the way I read it.

As for being unable to fulfill the requirements of the event after it is played, I don't know if the event card becomes moribund for being played at an illegal time or where its requirements cannot be fulfilled. I know if attachments are played on characters that can't have attachments, the attachment is simply discarded. Perhaps it's the same rule.

Bomb said:

I know if attachments are played on characters that can't have attachments, the attachment is simply discarded.
never

As for the event with Fear of Winter, you have to play the event in Step 1 of the player action. It's not moribund yet, but it has been played - along with the rest of its cost (including returning a character to hand). When the event tries to resolve in Step 3 by putting another character into play from your hand, you have already reached the "from your hand" limit imposed by the plot - even though it was in order to initiate the effect you now cannot resolve. So the effect fizzles because the cost has been paid.

It's not meant to condone illegal attachment play. Of course if you can't do something in the game, it shouldn't be allowed, however it's possible that such things are overlooked because of lack of attention to some constant card effects, lack of reading card text properly, or some other reason. At that point if the illegal move is caught later on, I assume it falls under the (3.20) Attachment Restrictions section of the FAQ.

I think you must fulfil both part to finish this event--first return an army,second put into play another. Because the event do not have the keyword "then". So when the revealing plot is Fear of Winter . You can't play this event because it can not be finished. Right?

Tiny, read the second paragraph of ktom's post above. Having the word "Then" actually doesn't matter here. To try to say it colloquially, when a card effect is resolved, it tries to do as much as it can of its ability. In this case, Desperate Tactics will return an Army to hand because that is part of the cost of its effect (Whenever a card says "do X to do Y," the X part is a cost that is paid when the effect is initiated). Then it will "try" to put an Army character into play from your hand, but it won't be able to because Fear of Winter won't let you play/put into play a second card (the first card having been Desperate Tactics itself).

If the card said "Then do Z" after the "Return an Army character you control to your hand to put an Army character with a lower printed STR into play from your hand" part, your line of thinking would be correct that Z would not happen because the Army character was not put into play.

Exactly. The rules only prevent you from triggering an effect if the cost (including choosing targets) cannot be successfully paid. There is no rule against triggering an effect that cannot resolve successfully.

Here's an example to illustrate: Let's say you have already drawn 2 extra cards this round (say...Bay of Ice and the Kings of Summer Agenda). If you could pay the costs, you would still be allowed to trigger a "draw 2 cards" effect (and draw just 1 card, to make 3 for the round), even though it cannot resolve successfully (by drawing 2 cards).

ktom said:

Exactly. The rules only prevent you from triggering an effect if the cost (including choosing targets) cannot be successfully paid. There is no rule against triggering an effect that cannot resolve successfully.

But there is, in the case of To Be A Stag and To Be A Dragon (that's in the FAQ). I'm also very sure that in previous discussions about To Be A Kraken, it was said that you couldn't stand a card without a triggered effect to cancel. What's the difference?

Ratatoskr said:

But there is, in the case of To Be A Stag and To Be A Dragon (that's in the FAQ).

Well, for one, it's in the FAQ as an exception. It's worth noting that if the general rule was that "you can't play the effect if it cannot resolve successfully" was the general rule, those entries wouldn't need to be in the FAQ. Further, the entry specifically talks about "eligible character(s) to return from the discard/dead pile," which clarifies that having those "eligible" characters to return is a play restriction. Play restrictions are part of initiation. So the limit here is not on successful resolution - it is on successful initiation.

Ratatoskr said:

I'm also very sure that in previous discussions about To Be A Kraken, it was said that you couldn't stand a card without a triggered effect to cancel. What's the difference?

Same deal. To Be A Kraken is a cancel Response. In order to play a Response, you have to meet its play restrictions when you initiate it. Part of a cancel Response is interrupting the effect you want to cancel. If there is no effect to cancel, you have not met the play restrictions for the effect. If you have not met the play restrictions, you cannot initiate the effect. Needing a triggered effect to cancel with To Be A Kraken is no different than needing a dead character to play an "after a character dies" Response. And again, the limit here is on successful initiation - not successful resolution.

Anyway, being able to play an effect even if the result cannot be successful is right in the FAQ (p.12):

"All events/character abilities have an effect, and may
be triggered whether or not the effect has any
result.
"