Mark Harrigan LiTaS

By amikezor, in Arkham Horror Second Edition

Does he looses one turn ? from the rules, it is unclear... has this been answered somewhere ?

thank you for your lights :-))

I'd say he doesn't have to skip the turn. Rulebook says (pag. 17) "the investigator is now delayed", which Mark cannot be, and then describes how being delayed while LiTaS works. But I agree with you, it's kinda ambiguous, since while LiTaS you skip Upkeep, while being delayed somewhere else, you don't skip that phase.

Huh... You know... I was going to say he's stuck there anyway. But then I looked at a little text (not carefully mind you), and that really should have been an FAQ question... I'd guess he'd not be delayable in LITAS (and that's probably how I'd play it until an official ruling). Besides ;') it's not like Mark can't use any favor he can get. I'm kind of surprised the question hasn't been asked before now. Then again, it is Mark, so maybe I should be less surprised.

In that case, Mark's ability is a superior version of Sister Mary's ability.

"Delayed" is the same as "stay here next turn," but it's not the same as "lose your next turn." The rules for LITAS say, "The investigator loses his next turn." Therefore, when you're LITAS, you're delayed and you lose your next turn (at the same time, apparently). Mark is immune to the first effect, but not the second.

avec said:

In that case, Mark's ability is a superior version of Sister Mary's ability.

"Delayed" is the same as "stay here next turn," but it's not the same as "lose your next turn." The rules for LITAS say, "The investigator loses his next turn." Therefore, when you're LITAS, you're delayed and you lose your next turn (at the same time, apparently). Mark is immune to the first effect, but not the second.

Which effectively means he spends as much time in LiTaS as everyone else, so you should delay him when he goes there if only for the ease of keeping track.

avec said:

In that case, Mark's ability is a superior version of Sister Mary's ability.

"Delayed" is the same as "stay here next turn," but it's not the same as "lose your next turn." The rules for LITAS say, "The investigator loses his next turn." Therefore, when you're LITAS, you're delayed and you lose your next turn (at the same time, apparently). Mark is immune to the first effect, but not the second.

Yeah. Whoops.

Incidentally, is there any reason at all to delay someone if they've already lost their next turn? I could sort of see it if there was an investigator who was immune to "lose your next turn" effects, but wasn't immune to "stay here next turn" effects (essentially, the opposite of Mark). But that would be a pretty stupid ability to give an investigator.

It would be. "Lose your turn" abilities are very rare. Essentially they're LiTaS or arrested .

There could be abilities or effect that target delayed investigators (Private Investigator from revised Dark Pharaoh lets you un-delay an investigator I think), but un-delaying someone in Lost in Time and Space would do nothing except to confuse the players.

Tibs said:

There could be abilities or effect that target delayed investigators (Private Investigator from revised Dark Pharaoh lets you un-delay an investigator I think), but un-delaying someone in Lost in Time and Space would do nothing except to confuse the players.

Personally, I think it's confusing that the player is delayed and loses his turn when LITAS. Just have the player lose his turn. It's the same thing and it's simpler.

There are few encounters - often the ones with nice rewards - which are "lose your next turn", too.

Well, strictly, if you lose your turn and are delayed, then you won't be un-delayed in Movement because you don't have a Movement phase ... which means that when you return to Arkham in the next Upkeep, you'll still be delayed. That's not how we've been playing it, though.

Actually, another question on this "lose your turn" thing that I've never seen answered - if you lose your turn, you don't get any of the four investigator phases, which includes Upkeep - so does that mean that you don't roll for (or receive money from) Retainers, Blessings, Curses, and don't draw a card from the Dust Deck? Don't need to spend a sanity to keep the Azure Flame? (Do you also lose "your" Mythos phase, and so become temporarily immune to corruptions triggering, for that matter?)

cim said:

Actually, another question on this "lose your turn" thing that I've never seen answered - if you lose your turn, you don't get any of the four investigator phases, which includes Upkeep - so does that mean that you don't roll for (or receive money from) Retainers, Blessings, Curses, and don't draw a card from the Dust Deck? Don't need to spend a sanity to keep the Azure Flame? (Do you also lose "your" Mythos phase, and so become temporarily immune to corruptions triggering, for that matter?)

I remember someone tried to argue for that kind of "Sphere of Invulnerability" way back when, and I thought it was ludicrous, since the PLAYER isn't LiTaS, his marker is. Does it prevent the Player from being First Player, and making Mythos decisions? Does the Bank not demand more interest because you left a note that you would be outside the universal realm for a week...you did leave them a note, right? Does a cosmic outer-dimensional entity like Quachil Uttaus care that you aren't on Earth Prime anymore? Since most Upkeep actions being ignored would benefit the Investigator, I think it's a cheap way to treat being LiTaS, which one would think as a BAD thing, as Hotel Limbo.

I say (and play) that, much like a delayed player must react to anything that may happen TO him during the Movement Phase (Call Friend, Hound of Tindalos from last Mythos Phase), a Player must react to any action that requires attention during Upkeep, but the Player is blocked from INITIATING any action. In other words, No Actions, All Reactions.

cim said:

Well, strictly, if you lose your turn and are delayed, then you won't be un-delayed in Movement because you don't have a Movement phase ... which means that when you return to Arkham in the next Upkeep, you'll still be delayed. That's not how we've been playing it, though.

Except that the rules say, "The investigator loses his next turn, remaining in the Lost in Time and Space area. The player may only stand his investigator marker back up during the Movement Phase" (p. 17). So I guess it's sort of a special "lose your next turn," where you get to do one thing, which is stand up.

So, the rules as written are essentially: "You're delayed and you lose your turn, except it's a special kind of lose your turn, since you get to become undelayed during the next Movement Phase."

Which is exactly the same thing as: "You lose your turn."

jgt7771 said:

I remember someone tried to argue for that kind of "Sphere of Invulnerability" way back when, and I thought it was ludicrous, since the PLAYER isn't LiTaS, his marker is. Does it prevent the Player from being First Player, and making Mythos decisions? Does the Bank not demand more interest because you left a note that you would be outside the universal realm for a week...you did leave them a note, right? Does a cosmic outer-dimensional entity like Quachil Uttaus care that you aren't on Earth Prime anymore? Since most Upkeep actions being ignored would benefit the Investigator, I think it's a cheap way to treat being LiTaS, which one would think as a BAD thing, as Hotel Limbo.

It's an interesting point. If you lose your turn, then technically, according to the rules as written, would you also "lose" your next Mythos Phase? If you are the First Player, would you "lose" your ability to turn over a Mythos card? I always assumed that the Mythos Phase wasn't part of any player's turn, but I don't see anything in the rules to suggest that.

I don't tie the Mythos card with the investigator so much as the player. In fact, even if an investigator misses his turn, I play that all "automatic" stuff still happens: roll for blessing/curse/retainer/bank loan, and of course you still have to have a Mythos phase.

Tibs said:

It would be. "Lose your turn" abilities are very rare. Essentially they're LiTaS or arrested .

But Mark cannot be arrested. So what was the intention of the designer ? unclear... :-))

Thank for all your answers guys. From what I read, we would conclude that Mark loses a turn while LiTaS but is not immune to upkeep effects which sounded odd to me anyway :-))

best

Tibs said:

I don't tie the Mythos card with the investigator so much as the player. In fact, even if an investigator misses his turn, I play that all "automatic" stuff still happens: roll for blessing/curse/retainer/bank loan, and of course you still have to have a Mythos phase.

But that's just a house rule, right? It's sensible, but it doesn't seem to be an official part of the game according to the rules as written.

I can't say for certain that requiring the "rolls" is official. But I am 100% certain that the Mythos phase still occurs, no matter who lost their turn.

Someone has to flip the Mythos card, and there is no bad guy player, so it's only sensible that they assign this duty to the 1st player for simplicity's sake.

Tibs said:

I can't say for certain that requiring the "rolls" is official. But I am 100% certain that the Mythos phase still occurs, no matter who lost their turn.

Someone has to flip the Mythos card, and there is no bad guy player, so it's only sensible that they assign this duty to the 1st player for simplicity's sake.

Okay, but you're still saying what the rule should be , not what it is .

There is no official answer, but I'm saying that at least for handling the Mythos phase , there doesn't need to be. I think, in this case, common sense should dictate the intent.

But when a monster "appears" during an encounter at a location, common sense would suggest that the monster had been at the location since before the encounter took place. And yet... ah **** it.

avec said:

But when a monster "appears" during an encounter at a location, common sense would suggest that the monster had been at the location since before the encounter took place.

Actually, when an elder sign is on a location, "a monster appears" encounters are canceled. But since monsters that are already on the board pay no mind to elder signs, common sense actually dictates that they cannot have been already in the location. cool.gif

But skipping the Mythos phase because an arbitrary investigator lost his turn? Absolutely not. The Ancient One will not wait because he picked investigator names out of a hat and the one selected happened to be in jail.

Tibs said:

There is no official answer, but I'm saying that at least for handling the Mythos phase, there doesn't need to be. I think, in this case, common sense should dictate the intent.

Actually, I think this is covered by the rulebook.

Page 17, Lost In Time And Space
"Any investigator who is lost in time and space is immediately moved to the Lost in Time and Space area of the board. The investigator is now delayed, and the player should place the investigator marker on its side. The investigator loses his next turn, remaining in the Lost in Time and Space area. The player may only stand his investigator marker back up during the Movement Phase. On the following turn, at the start of the Upkeep Phase, the player may move his investigator to any location or street area of his choice in Arkham."

Notice that the rules here refer to the investigator NOT the player . The investigator loses his next turn, it does not say that the player loses his next turn.

Page 9 of the rules at the start of Phase V: Mythos
"During the Mythos Phase, the first player draws a mythos card and performs the following actions:"

Here it is the player who draws the Mythos card, not the investigator. So it doesn't matter if the investigator has to miss the next turn, the player still performs Phase V.

Aha. Nice catch.

Here's another interesting one:

Many Epic Battle cards ask the First Player to roll dice, and the outcome is based on the number of successes. Clearly, "successes" are defined as a 5 or a 6. But what if the investigator with the First Player marker is Cursed? Does "success" change in this case? What about if he's Blessed? Are such rolls always "neutral"? How can you tell the difference between when a Blessing or Curse is or is not applied for a given roll?

Tibs said:

Aha. Nice catch.

Here's another interesting one:

Many Epic Battle cards ask the First Player to roll dice, and the outcome is based on the number of successes. Clearly, "successes" are defined as a 5 or a 6. But what if the investigator with the First Player marker is Cursed? Does "success" change in this case? What about if he's Blessed? Are such rolls always "neutral"? How can you tell the difference between when a Blessing or Curse is or is not applied for a given roll?

I know not these "Epic Battle cards" that you speak of preocupado.gif (don't have Kingsport Horror or any of the other expansions yet) but I would say that again, it is specific that it is a PLAYER and not an INVESTIGATOR resolving the card, therefore Blessing and Curses do not come into it.

Reading the AH rulebook, the section under Skills (pages 12-13) refer to INVESTIGATORS who make the skill check. The PLAYER may be the one who rolls the dice but the rules seems to be consistent that you look at the investigators skill and so on. This terminology is also used for Blessed and Cursed Investigators (page 17). An investigator is Blessed or Cursed, not the player.

"An investigator may never be Blessed and Cursed at the same time. If a Blessed investigator is Cursed, simply discard the Blessing. If a Cursed investigator is Blessed, simply discard the Curse. Likewise, a player may never have more than one Bless or Curse card at a time."

While it states that a player may never have more than one Bless or Curse card at a time, it is clear that it is the investigator who is Blessed or Cursed. This to me seems consistent and would mean (to me at least) that with Epic Battle cards then a 5 or 6 on the dice roll means success, blessed and cursed do not come into it.

But this is getting way off-topic now happy.gif

xris said:

"An investigator may never be Blessed and Cursed at the same time. If a Blessed investigator is Cursed, simply discard the Blessing. If a Cursed investigator is Blessed, simply discard the Curse. Likewise, a player may never have more than one Bless or Curse card at a time."

While it states that a player may never have more than one Bless or Curse card at a time, it is clear that it is the investigator who is Blessed or Cursed. This to me seems consistent and would mean (to me at least) that with Epic Battle cards then a 5 or 6 on the dice roll means success, blessed and cursed do not come into it.