FAQ update before GenCon?

By darknoj, in 1. AGoT General Discussion

Their has been a lot of talk in my very small meta that FFG will be releasing an update FAQ just before GenCon. This is mostly driven from the fact that one of the guys I play with says that he was talking to one of the play testers online and “he told me that some cards from the Secret from Old Town are going to be nerfed before GenCon”.

Of course the rest of my meta thinks this could be very true, specifically updates such as At The Gates becoming restricted and Archmaester Ebrose having his wording adjusted to max 3 power or once a game etc… They also talk about a few martell events that they feel should go on the restricted list like Game of Cyvasse.


I personally think its getting very close to GenCon so if FFG where going to do anything (which I don’t think they will) it would be this week or not at all. Has anyone herd anything about the FAQ being updated? Do any of the more senior players have any feelings on the chance of this happening?

On a funner note what cards do others think should be restricted or modified? Is Ebrose the terror that my Meta makes him out to be..breaking the core game? (the guys I play with can be drama queens.) happy.gif

GenCon is still a month away so they have time. I think at least two weeks notice shoudl be fine.

I haven't seen Ebrose in play yet so I can't comment on him. Burning and Cvyasse both ned to be looked at - at Maester Luwin really should be House Stark only.

Two weeks before Gencon is not an acceptable amount of time to print a FAQ. People have been testing for Gencon for months at this point (people who playtested and have had access to OCTGN files have been even going longer I'd guess).

Personally, I would like to see Carrion Bird restricted and Prince's plan errata'ed to deathbound.

darknoj said:

Their has been a lot of talk in my very small meta that FFG will be releasing an update FAQ just before GenCon. This is mostly driven from the fact that one of the guys I play with says that he was talking to one of the play testers online and “he told me that some cards from the Secret from Old Town are going to be nerfed before GenCon”.

Of course the rest of my meta thinks this could be very true, specifically updates such as At The Gates becoming restricted and Archmaester Ebrose having his wording adjusted to max 3 power or once a game etc… They also talk about a few martell events that they feel should go on the restricted list like Game of Cyvasse.


I personally think its getting very close to GenCon so if FFG where going to do anything (which I don’t think they will) it would be this week or not at all. Has anyone herd anything about the FAQ being updated? Do any of the more senior players have any feelings on the chance of this happening?

On a funner note what cards do others think should be restricted or modified? Is Ebrose the terror that my Meta makes him out to be..breaking the core game? (the guys I play with can be drama queens.) happy.gif

darknoj said:

Their has been a lot of talk in my very small meta that FFG will be releasing an update FAQ just before GenCon. This is mostly driven from the fact that one of the guys I play with says that he was talking to one of the play testers online and “he told me that some cards from the Secret from Old Town are going to be nerfed before GenCon”.

Of course the rest of my meta thinks this could be very true, specifically updates such as At The Gates becoming restricted and Archmaester Ebrose having his wording adjusted to max 3 power or once a game etc… They also talk about a few martell events that they feel should go on the restricted list like Game of Cyvasse.


I personally think its getting very close to GenCon so if FFG where going to do anything (which I don’t think they will) it would be this week or not at all. Has anyone herd anything about the FAQ being updated? Do any of the more senior players have any feelings on the chance of this happening?

On a funner note what cards do others think should be restricted or modified? Is Ebrose the terror that my Meta makes him out to be..breaking the core game? (the guys I play with can be drama queens.) happy.gif

Well, the last FAQ updates have come in very regular three-month intervals: April - Juli - October - January - April, so I'd expect an update in July. FAQ updates shortly before GenCon are not unheard of either, if I'm not mistaken.

I'm not sure any of the Martell events should be restricted, but if one needs to go on the list, it's BotS. I really wish they'd leave Game of Cyvasse alone, it's fun and creative and elegant and requires skill. If it were restricted, we'd see very little of it anymore, which would be sad.

I can see At the Gates going on the list, it's ubiquitous and too strong, IMHO. Not sure about Ebrose, haven't played with or against him. There's quite a bit of Voltron and attachment hate in the environment (or coming with the next CPs), he's a 4Gold Neutral, and characters are easily controlled, so I dunno if he's all that problematic.

Stag Lord said:

GenCon is still a month away so they have time. I think at least two weeks notice shoudl be fine.

I haven't seen Ebrose in play yet so I can't comment on him. Burning and Cvyasse both ned to be looked at - at Maester Luwin really should be House Stark only.

I've only seen Ebrose in play once, and he was good, but not shockingly so. I can see him being a terror, though, in the right hands/deck.

I agree that FFG should probably take a long, hard look at the Martell events. Maester Luwin being House Stark only might be nice also; personally, I'm not a huge fan of seeing "House X" cards played OOH more often than in House.

Ratatoskr


Check out the deck building section for a good example of an Ebrose based deck. www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp

He is not easy to control and can rush faster then Bara.

I personally agree with Shenanigans in that I think he is good but not completely OP until you put him in the right deck then I think he is the most powerful card in the environment. Basically, when supported correctly there are very limited things your opposition can do to deal with him.

I think if he is not updated most players at GenCon will need to seriously consider how the deck they are going to take can deal with him in a Martell Maester deck similar to the one posted above... I know I will…

Stag Lord

Since you like the rush arch type I would have though that you have played the newest rush build - The Martell Maesters ;)

The deck posted above is a safer version then I have seen played live, but it’s also slower. I have seen pretty consistent turn 2-3 wins from a rush version.

Does this mean Ebrose should be nerfed no…does it mean he should be looked at for the next FAQ I would say yes…

ShivesMcShivers

I agree with you that its not much time to change decks but at least everyone would be doing the same thing and if its on a normal schedule i would feel that its fine, but hey thats just what i think. ;)

I am not much for erratta, nor do I think Martell is THAT good that they need yet more restricted cards.

However, I could see At the Gates hit the restricted list. And Compelled get un-banned and put as restricted (or not, it isn't that good of a card, and now that there is nuetral attachment hate why is Lanni having it that bad?).

Not sure why so many people are defaulting to restriction for certain cards. There's also ban and errata. I'd be surprised by bannings (although I can think of a couple of candidate cards no one has mentioned), but errata could much more good than restrictions ever would.

For instance, why restrict At The Gates when you can errata it to "in-House...only" or "in-House or neutral...only"? Fixes the Luwin the problem, and the problem of applying errata to Luwin -- "He's House Stark only now? Ok, time to find the second best 3-cost or less Maester in the game and get him instead." Another example is the Carrion Bird. I recently saw Maester Luke post on another site that he wished it would only shuffle/discard *printed* Raven cards.

~Why does everyone hate errata? llorando.gif

Rings:
"I am not much for erratta, nor do I think Martell is THAT good that they need yet more restricted cards."

Whether or not Martell gets hit again (Prince's Plan needs restriction at the least), they are "THAT good." They dictate the metagame unlike any other House in the game. Martell isn't unbeatable, but it is the House to beat, and that says something.

I guess it's time formy bi-monthly forum post lengua.gif

I will be very disapointed if any of the current Martell events go on the restricted list. However, I strongly believe that Princes Plans should. As someone who has been testing for GenCon for several months I can say that the card is incredbly powerful and should be watched out for. Aside from that I don't believe that any of the events are powerful enough to warrant being restricted.

I like At the Gates as is; if it is changed I hope to see it search for an in-house/neutral maester rather than being restricted. With this I don't think any change needs to be made to Luwin.

The one card that I think should be restricted is Carrion Bird. That may be personal preference, but Carrion Bird + maester collars is awesome repeatable character control that can be done out of any house for very little gold and only 2-3 cards.

I don't see anything happening to Ebrose.

@Fatmouse: In the past I always preferred errata over banning. But restricting cards seems much more elegant than errataing. You can easily show new player a list of cards and say "choose one of these to play in your deck" but it's not as easy to show them a bunch of text and say "modify all of the printed wordings on these cards with these actual wordings." I mostly just hate changing card text when we now have a shiny new third option to deal with problem cards. Just my $0.02.

Intentionally Anonymous said:

@Fatmouse: In the past I always preferred errata over banning. But restricting cards seems much more elegant than errataing. You can easily show new player a list of cards and say "choose one of these to play in your deck" but it's not as easy to show them a bunch of text and say "modify all of the printed wordings on these cards with these actual wordings." I mostly just hate changing card text when we now have a shiny new third option to deal with problem cards. Just my $0.02.

It's definitely less cumbersome to restrict cards than errata, but I think errata has it's place and could have a much more elegant impact on the game than restriction sometimes does (see At the Gates). Furthermore, I've found new players to be equally unaware of the restricted list, ban list, and errata list and able to incorporate all three into their gameplay with relative ease. I've yet to meet one player flabbergasted by any errata, or express a sentiment of "Hodor Hodor Hodor..." (translation) "I'm too dumb to remember changes in cards, I wish they just used that list where you can only run one of those cards...wait what cards are on the list again?" lengua.gif

I don't think something needs to be done about Ebrose. I've been experimenting with him in the Melee format and he is a fantastic rush character, especially then combined with The Conclave (Who is INSANE) and a good Forging the Chain turn. But as far as restricting him, the deck has to be so specific to get him running that fact alone balances him. You have to run a tight ship around Ebrose or nothing's going to go well for you.

agh no, no restriction to carrion bird since it would make keeping summer even more easier. What the bird really needs (and few other creatures aswell) is a no attachment errata, its a creature only creatures in the same set have the same problem they somehow forgot the usual creature rule, no attachment. It's not all that nedly to see a pigeon being court adisor even thou its fun ;) or as a maester... what...

Aren't there NDA's and such that restrict sharing info like this? Wonder how reliable this is....

On the other hand, I wouldnt' be surprised at all if FFG released some sort of pre-GenCon FAQ. Hasn't it pretty much released a major rules clarification prior to every LCG GenCon?

Judging by the fact that Martell still dominated (though less than Lanni did in the past) many of the regionals, I wouldn't be surprised to see a nerf or two in that house. In fact, in a way, I sort of expect something...especially given the number of threads that have appeared over the last couple of months complaining about Martell or its "OP" cards. (If this plays out, let that be a lesson that FFG actually does listen, so be careful what you ask for :P )

I would, however, be very surprised to see Ebrose nerfed/restricted. He's extremely expensive, and easy enough to kill. Unlike many of the other restricted cards, he doesn't start out OP...if you're already losing, this guy isn't going to help much. He mostly just helps you win *a lot* faster (in my opinion).

Anyone else getting *very* excited for the 4th chapter pack? FINALLY some non-unique Targ maesters I can use in my deck!

Edit: I also gotta say I'm EXTREMELY excited for Outwit. Valar just massacres the maesters build, especially in houses that don't have 3-STR unique maesters. It will be nice to have some counter that also introduces an element of skill when playing Valar/other "When Revealed" plots. Or am I alone on this thinking?

Twn2dn said:

Edit: I also gotta say I'm EXTREMELY excited for Outwit. Valar just massacres the maesters build, especially in houses that don't have 3-STR unique maesters. It will be nice to have some counter that also introduces an element of skill when playing Valar/other "When Revealed" plots. Or am I alone on this thinking?

No, but Outfox would have been better gran_risa.gif

What I feel should be done:

Maester Luwin errata'd to Stark only.

Carrion Bird errata'd to "shuffle printed Raven".

I think it's silly to put Carrion Bird on the restricted list because Maester's Path and chains are too good. Why nerf Carrion BIrd because of other cards? Did anyone call for Carrion Bird to be restricted before chains and Maester's Path? Put the blame where it belongs.

The real issue is repeatable trait manipulation that causes a major NPE. Having a character shuffled into your deck every turn doesn't promote an enjoyable experience. Frankly, this cycle of cards makes me regret purchasing every set in the last few months. I'm really not enjoying facing maester decks every game I play. When they can discard all my attachments, shuffle my characters into my deck, make my characters -4 or 5 strength, return all their chains I manage to remove from their discard pile, play Pyromancer's Cache OOH for free with chains, etc.

The Maester's Path errata'd to only activate when you win a challenge on defense.

Ebrose errata'd to maximum of 3 power claimed per round with his ability.

For everyone who says it's easy to kill Ebrose, I don't think you've played a good version of the deck yet. Martell with all its nasty events, Paper Shield, Leyton Hightower, Citadel of Oldtown, etc.

Burning on the Sand on the restricted list.

At the Gates errata'd to in-house or neutral Maester only.

Apprentice Collar banned. You should have to run actual Maesters in your deck, this card allows you all the benefits of Maesters and the agenda without even having to run them in your deck. I've had people run 2 copies of this on a non-Maester and stack up tons of chains with the agenda. This makes it so that if I'm able to remove or blank one of them, they're still a Maester and don't lose their chains.

I also think that Tin Link is a bit ridiculous. A single card that you are guaranteed to have in play with agenda that controls attachments better than Targaryen? I'd really like to see you have to discard it to use the ability. Of course then they'd just recur it with Bronze Link every turn...

I think the bird should be errata'd to "_printed_ Raven trait" and the problem would resolve itself. That's what's making it so bad. You can't restrict it w/o making season decks overly strong. :/

Stasis said:

Apprentice Collar banned.

That's one of the cards I was thinking of that no one mentioned.

I do not feel that Apprentice Collar is very OP. Their is enough attachment control that it can be easily removed. I think they have to be careful that they don’t over nerf the set or no one will play it. Minor tweaks to At The Gates, Ebrose and Prince's Promise is most likely all that is needed to balance it. Lets not go overboard. ;)

The Apprentice Collar isn't OP, but the added utility it gives to other chains and the chains interaction with the Maester's Path is OP and really creates powerful gameplay that bypasses the fact you should be running a large selection of Maesters when running the Maester's Path. Get rid of the ability to make a character a Maester indefinitely, and the chains and agenda become much more balanced and flavorful.

There are other ways of addressing the problem with the chains and agenda, but banning the Collar is probably the simplest. Either that or applying a "printed Maester only" errata to the agenda. ~But errata would cause too much confusion.

People who use the agenda and chains to dominate aren't going to agree that it's overpowered. They have their GenCon decks all ready to go and don't want an errata to make them build something less powerful.

Apprentice's Collar in a vacuum is not too powerful. With the agenda, other chains, and non-Maesters that have amazing abilities - it is definitely too powerful. You just put 3 of them on the table at the beginning of the game and start dropping them on all your power characters. Who needs real Maesters?

I hope that FGG is moving away from banning cards. I personally don’t think that banning a card is ever a good idea unless it’s so broken that there is no other choice. The apprentice collar to me is not that broken in fact in my play experience it’s not even that OP. That however is just my play experience. ;)

I think banning it would make the chain agenda much less playable which to me is sad since I like the idea of having many different agendas being used in the environment not just summer…..

All that being said I hope that FFG will release any FAQ soon since I would need to ship my cards if I had to change the decks I plan on bringing to GenCon. If they go ban happy or over kill on restricting martell events I will be looking at complete deck redesign. Which makes me very sad…. I hope that adjustments will be done a little at a time and their effects looked at before doing another…

If one agenda is dominant it does not promote deck diversity. People are going to converge on that one deck type and it will do the opposite of encouraging diversity. For that reason I disagree with your sentiment.

Stasis said:

You just put 3 of them on the table at the beginning of the game and start dropping them on all your power characters. Who needs real Maesters?

I'm not sure I follow you here, I mean, 2x happens with relative frequency w/in the first turn, but all 3? That's some seriously lucky draw.

From the people i have talked to their will be four agenda's currently represented a lot at Gencon; Summer, Winter, Maester and Seig of Winterfell. You drop the Maester and you will get just the other 3.


I think we are just gone disagree on this one Stasis but that fine. I think since i have been play testing a few maester decks and been getting owned with some of them (most vs martell and lanni) that i have a different view on the cards.


With only 26 days to go till GenCon we can discuses our thoughs over beer after the tournies with the FAQ already released. 8)


cheers

Count me in the camp that would prefer nothing but bannings. The restricted list is okay, but it ends up being an effective banned list for the most part with just more added layer of complexity to deckbuilding. Errata'ing typos is okay, but the more little things like changing "Raven" to "printed Raven" that build the more players are asked to remember. The specifics of card text often matter and these little changes (designed to fix certain problems like the Carrion Bird / Copper Link issue that is a real problem) have other ramifications that crop up over time and become harder to remember as they become more numerous (especially since after they "fix" the problem they are meant to fix the errata becomes less obtrusive and can be forgotten). I can live with errata and don't really want to debate it, just try to give the other viewpoint (I think it's a matter of taste and not something that you can easily sway someone's opinion on).

I expect we'll see something before GenCon. At the Gates and OOH maesters are showing up too much in my opinion (though I wouldn't mind if they waited until the maester CP cycle was finished first; it's kind of forgivable to push the theme of the set currently being sold).