Adeptus Mechanicus, an ally rather than a vassal?

By van Riebeeck, in Rogue Trader

In the thread over Epic RT a discussion developed about the exact legal position of the Empire. Described as an ally, I maintained it is a vassal. A quite crucial difference, which I backed up with the notes on the Adeptus Mechanicus from the FFG publications.

It seems I was wrong though. As Badlapje showed, the lexicanum states that originally the Adeptus Mechanicus was indeed an ally, with its own empire that got 'incorporated' within the Imperium of Man with a quite unique position, amongst witch an obvious monopoly on technology and STC's.

To me, this is very interesting, especially as RT really leads itself to Grand Strategy adventures, where it is not so much dungeoncrawling but Empirebuilding that is the focus of a campaign. For DH this would also be of great importance, as things like this really impact on the authority of an Inquisitor and severly limit his actions. Considering that our party consists of quite a few people who know how important these legal differences are in real life, this can add vast extra depth to our adventures.

But, we need to know more. As I understand now, the Adeptus Mechanicus was originally an Imperial Ally, with enormous rights and prerogatives. This explains as well why the Ad Mech was not purged so thoroughly as the Adeptus Astartes after the Horus Heresy, even if they were as affected by treason as the Space Marines. But how did this develop? The Imperium is not a fully static entity and after the Horus Heresy it has gone through many tribulations. So, who here knows more on the Adeptus Mechanicus. Both on its original position and its present state within the Imperium of Man.

Friedrich van Riebeeck, Navigator Primus, Heart of the Void

The wonderful thing about being the Emperor of Mankind is that nobody dares gainsay something you signed your name to. The Treaty of Mars states that the two Empires are just that: separate, allied Empires. The Imperium promises to protect Mars, Mars pledges to provide the Imperium with technology.

that it right there in a nutshell. its probly somewhat more complicated then that but ya

As far as i know after the heresy means the Adeptus lost a shitload of technology but otherways nothing much changed for them. When the High Lords were formed, they gained a seat there (their fabricator general of mars or whomever he deems should hold that position), to represent their interests within the ruling body of the Imperium.

Technically this means that every single forge world is outside of the jurisdiction of the Inquisition and vice versa. And yah, that's pretty major.

It also means that any contract your RT has with the Admech is negotiated for.

One of the interesting side-effects of this relationship is that a tech priest who has committed some serious offence won't be tried and punished by Imperial authorities, but handed over to the Mechanicus to deal with. This will be done with the expectation that the end result for said tech priest will remain essentially unchanged -- the important point is that the sovereignty of the Mechanicus is respected and the proper political forms adhered to.

Important members of powerful Imperial factions -- Navigators, powerful members of the Ecclesiarchy etc... will probably receive similar treatment, but in such cases an Arbite or Inquisitor at least has the technical authority to ignore such niceties if they feel it prudent to do so. When dealing with the Mechanicus, any unilateral action carries a much greater risk of significant political fallout.

There is a huge emphasis in 40k on pacts, treaties, oaths, warrants etc. The feudal mindset of the Imperium is such that binding agreements between monolithic organisations play an enormous role, and the relationship between the Imperium and the Adeptus Mechanicus is the prime example.

My interpretation is that they are indeed two empires, and they are both divided and linked by a common faith...or rather by somewhat tenuous links between aspects of their two faiths.

It's beneficial for both that the Imperium and the Adeptus Mechanicus worship the same figure - the Emperor - though the ways in which he is worshipped within each empire are very much at odds. Like the Ministorum's toleration of the Marine Cults, there appears to be an "agreement to differ" over the theological aspects of each empire's approach to the Emperor, though Blood of Martyrs suggests that some of the more evangelical zealots within the Ecclesiarchy chafe at restrictions which prevent them preaching on Forge Worlds. This is a very dangerous issue for both Empires, and possibly the one most likely to create flashpoints between them.

Another major factor in their alliance is brutal pragmatism; the Adeptus Mechanicus needs the Imperium to provide manpower, resources and protection, the Imperium needs the Adeptus Mechanicus to provide technology it no longer understands itself.

One imagines that the extent to which both Empires are intertwined causes the senior figures within both organisations to take a very pragmatic stance over their differences. Look at the "Titanicus" novel by Dan Abnett: in that book, many senior figures within the Admech were falling over themselves to cover up the discovery of an ancient source which suggested the Emperor wasn't the Omnissiah, simply because the relationship between the two empires is so benficial to them both.

So yes, I'd definately say that the Adeptus Mechanicus is certainly an ally, not a vassal. And like all allies, they must be treated with imense respect, especially as there are so many areas of potential conflict between the two empires. One imagines that on a day to day basis there are hundreds of tiny conflicts that flare up between the Imperium and the Mechanicus, and both probably spend a lot of their time trying to keep a lid on these things for their own distinct reasons.

The AdMech is still an independent empire - they have sole control of their Forge Worlds, where only Mechanicus law applies and most Imperial agents (such as Inquisitiors) could be argued to not have the authority they would on any Imperial planet.

Definately an ally, and a powerfull and willfull one at that. One thing that keeps the ad-mechs power within the Imperium is that they are able to present a united front, unlike for example the Navis houses. As for a demonstration of their status within the Imperium, name me one other organisation that owns and rules countless thousands of worlds, has armies, titan legions and many fleets of ships. No other group since the heresy has such power. Their must be a reason for that!

From a RT perspective, I play the ad-mech as an independent body on the ship, one to be talked to nicely by the lady-captain or, quite simply, her ship stops working. At least parts of it like toilets, lights, life support etc.

Ally, not vassal. Even the Inquisition treads carefully when it comes to forge worlds. One mission idea in a DH book (Creatures Anathema I believe) involves an Inquisitorial delegation - with the acolytes breaking off in total secrecy to investigate deeper into the forge world databanks. If the acolytes are caught, they are on their own and presumably doomed.

One little detail: In theory, no one is beyond the authority of the Inquisition; an Inquisitor answers only to his or her peers. Given how much the AdMech needs the Imperium, the high magi need to keep up appearances and toe the line. So, there is some incentive to cooperate with an Inquisitor's investigation, at least in public...

In practice, though, the Mechanicus is pretty darn powerful. With their monopoly on technology, it's tough for an Inquisitor to judge them simply because he doesn't know what he's looking at. "Uhh, what does this widget do? Is it heretek?" Cue head-scratching. There is no Ecclesiarchy or Arbites presence on Forge Worlds, and the entire populace is effectively slaves of the tech-priests, so any investigation there will be much tougher than on a normal Imperial world.

Cheers,

- V.

Like the age old question "When is it okay to rebel?" Answer: "When you win." Inquisitors sometimes have to buck convention and treaties, risking themselves in the bargain. IF they can get away with their activities so much the better. If not they can be 'tossed to the wolves' by conclave as a heretic.

An Inquisitor that starts poking at a Forge World is likely to disappear or worse. Most would know better and use agents, never risking themselves. If they can get away with their activities so much the better, if not they'd better not get caught by the wrong Praetorian.

I would venture to say that mechanicus personnel accused of or caught in the commission of crimes on an Imperial world are likely to be dealt with there by the IoM authorities present, with the Mechanicus acting to intervene only if it is in their interests to do so.

bobh said:

I would venture to say that mechanicus personnel accused of or caught in the commission of crimes on an Imperial world are likely to be dealt with there by the IoM authorities present, with the Mechanicus acting to intervene only if it is in their interests to do so.

I'd suggest that this would vary based on the crime - if it's a crime within local laws only, then it's not a matter for the Imperium to resolve (the Adeptus Arbites don't get involved unless it goes against the Lex Imperialis , and local authorities only push matters as far as their superiors are willing to cross the Adeptus Mechanicus), if it's a crime against the Imperium, then the Adeptus Arbites get involved, and they're largely uncaring about who gets hurt in the name of justice ("To be just, our law must be cruel" being a common saying within the organisation). If it's a crime under the dictates and codes of the Adeptus Mechanicus, then they'll deal with it themselves.

I've found it easiest to think of the Imperium as having multiple independent legal systems, overseen by an assortment of organisations (variously, the Departmento Munitorum for military matters, the Adeptus Arbites for Imperial law, the Adeptus Ministorum for religious law, the Adeptus Mechanicus for scientific/technical law as well as their own brand of religious law, and at the very bottom, local authorities for the laws of individual worlds). At the end of the day, it's the nature of your role in society and the nature of your crime that determines whether an Arbites Judge, a Ministorum Confessor, a Commissar, a Tech-Priest or a local Magistrate is the one handling your case, and Throne forgive you if you find yourself in the hands of an Inquisitor instead. As with all matters of law in the Imperium, things get more complicated if an act is regarded as criminal by multiple organisations. A common example of this would be instances where a servant of the Imperium has committed acts that are crimes against both the Imperium (Adeptus Arbites jurisdiction) and the Church (Adeptus Ministorum jurisdiction), or if Imperial Guard or Imperial Navy personnel commit a crime or sin outside the normal limits of the military law overseen and enforced by the Commissariat.

Interesting point. One scenario mentioned in Dark Heresy is joint Inquisition / Mechanicus operations. If a Heretek violates Imperial law - which is quite possible given that it was the Emperor who banned AI's, anima mori, transgenic blasphemy, and a few other things - then both the Mechanicus and the Inquisition have motive to hunt him down.

Of course, the Inquisition and Mechanicus have something else in common: neither wants the other to know much about how they operate. Knowledge is power; the more the Inquisition knows about the Mechanicus, the more effective their investigations on Forge Worlds. Worse, the more the Big I learns about technology, the more surveillance gear they will be able to make that the Mechanicus doesn't know they have and may not be able to counter. And, the Mechanicus doesn't want anyone in the Imperium learning about their technology because their monopoly on tech is the source of their power. They especially don't want the Inquisition knowing too much, as that means the Inquisitors will be able to hold the mechanicus accountable for their sins... and worshipping the Omnissaiah (sp?) instead of the Emperor is a sin to some. In other words, the Imperium is not one big happy family; the major power groups all need each other, but they don't like or trust one another.

In short, there's a reason Inquisitors want rogue tech-priests in their retinue, and a reason the Mechanicus sends out their own hunter-killer cadres. That little conflict of interest makes joint operations... interesting. gran_risa.gif

Cheers,

- V.

It also really makes the interaction between a RT and the Adeptus Mechanicus very interesting. To take but a small example, if I am right one of the conditions under which the Ad Mech and the Imperium got bound in this tightly locked alliance was the complete and full right of the Ad Mech on any STC's discovered. As semi-independant actors with an Imperial writ, how does this apply to Rogue Traders? Do they have to hand that precious STC over under the Iron rule of Law (backed up with the fact that to keep their ship working they simply need the Ad Mech, not to mention the fact that the Ad Mech has some of the best ships availiable to humanity to back its threats up) or can they negotiate about its price and reward. And to complicate matters, in good old Imperial tradition, the Adeptus Mechanicus won't be a smooth centrally controlled body, and each forge world will vie for such a juicy price.

FvR

I am still pondering the ally and vassal question, because to me the 'alliance' term does not cover the narrow interaction between the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Imperium as a whole. Bear with me a moment.

The crucial moment is obviously the Union of Mars, where the God-Emperor and the Fabricator-General signed the treaty linking the fate of the two Imperia together. An Union is obviously more then even the most perfect alliance. Even if the sovereignty of every body in this Union is respected. This seems to be more of a Personnal Union than a strict alliance.

Allow me to compare it to a real world example: The Austrian-Hungarian Double Monarchy. Rather then one state, this was a Union under a single monarch of two sovereign monarchies that each retained their internal sovereignty, but had a common exterior policy and defense.

To me, the one theocratical Monarchy (God-Emperor) of two sovereign states (Terra and Mars) represents the relationship between the Imperium as a whole and the Adeptus Mechanicus better then the alliance or the vassal description. This leaves Mars their own laws, colonies, forge worlds, fleets and sundry, but ties it far closer to the Imperium as a whole then the term 'alliance' covers. It still leaves ample space for intrigue and jurisdiction problems, but stops a too great divergence of interests from occuring.

FvR

I think the passage of time is being overlooked here - the Imperium now is not as it was, for all that it is convenient to think of it as unchanging.

As I see it:

At the beginning of the Great Crusade, the Mechanicum of Mars was an ally to the nascent Imperium of Man, bound together under treaties arranged between the Terran Emperor and Kelbor-Hal, the Fabricator-General of Mars. This was primarily because both the technological and manufacturing capabilities available to the Martians were needed by the Imperium to support the Great Crusade - in the aftermath of Long Night and the Unification Wars, Terra lacked the infrastructure for large-scale production of arms, armour, vehicles and starships, but Mars could provide those things. Mars also had another advantage - while Terra had fallen apart during the Age of Strife, Mars had expanded, and had sent colony ships out into the Warp Storms. The Forge Worlds of the Mechanicum were already established, had their own Titan Legions and were well-placed to support the expansion of the Imperium. Mars has all the advantages at this point - Terra needs, and Mars can provide. What we don't know is what the Imperium offered in return, though the vastness of the Emperor's technological knowledge is likely.

Fast forward a few centuries. The Great Crusade is at its peak, the Emperor has returned to Terra after the Triumph at Ullanor and a nasty bit of business on Nikea, and the Mechanicum have gained much from Terran conquests, including re-established contact with their many Forge Worlds. Then war comes, and the Mechanicum itself is divided. Conflict rages across the galaxy, and the Forge Worlds are not spared. The Fabricator-General sides with Horus, and the rest is history. A decade or so later, the Imperium is in ruins, and the Mechanicum are no better off.

Under the leadership of Roboute Guilliman (who seems to have been the only Primarch actually interested in rebuilding the Imperium rather than enacting revenge against the Traitors), the Imperium is rebuilt, but it is not the same Imperium. The unifying faith in the God-Emperor spreads across a shattered civilisation, and the loyal remnants of the Mechanicum find themselves in a position of mutual necessity with the rebuilt Imperium - they cannot survive without the Imperium, and the Imperium cannot survive without them. Closer unity is necessary, and so the Adeptus Terra and the Adeptus Mechanicus come to exist alongside one another, with the new Fabricator-General of Mars taking his place amongst the High Lords of Terra

Since then, the two have become even more closely linked, bound by an horrifyingly complex web of treaties, oaths, pacts, agreements and arrangements that only grows in complexity with every passing century. Every new Astartes Chapter, every new Crusade and every new Warrant of Trade means new strands that tie the interests of the Adeptus Mechanicus more closely to different elements of the Imperium.

I quite completely agree on the importance of the passing of time. That was after all the main point of the original question with which I started this thread. How has it all developed and where are we now? As the main point is of course the present position of the Adeptus Mechanicus within the Imperium.

The interest in the origins and the development is mostly (the pure knowledge is always interesting as well) aimed at understanding the complexities of the relationship now. As you said, every crusade, every contract, every agreement have linked the Adeptus Mechanicus closer to the Imperial Core, making it an inextricable part of the Empire of Man. The interesting thing to me is however that they still manage to maintain a quite unique position within the Imperium, where the Adeptus Mechanicus is not so much ordered as requested, and remains to be treated with enormous circumspection. And a large part of this is based on the old priviliges granted to them by the God-Emperor himself.

As I pointed out above, the original decrees as the sole right on any STC found by the Imperium will still apply, bound in charter after charter and reinforced by millenia of tradition. And when a Rogue Trader dynasty deals with the Adeptus Mechanicus to aquire the services of tech priests for his ships, I cannot imagine such vital elements will be left out. This offers very interesting RP paths.

FvR

van Riebeeck said:

I quite completely agree on the importance of the passing of time. That was after all the main point of the original question with which I started this thread. How has it all developed and where are we now? As the main point is of course the present position of the Adeptus Mechanicus within the Imperium.

The interest in the origins and the development is mostly (the pure knowledge is always interesting as well) aimed at understanding the complexities of the relationship now. As you said, every crusade, every contract, every agreement have linked the Adeptus Mechanicus closer to the Imperial Core, making it an inextricable part of the Empire of Man. The interesting thing to me is however that they still manage to maintain a quite unique position within the Imperium, where the Adeptus Mechanicus is not so much ordered as requested, and remains to be treated with enormous circumspection. And a large part of this is based on the old priviliges granted to them by the God-Emperor himself.

As I pointed out above, the original decrees as the sole right on any STC found by the Imperium will still apply, bound in charter after charter and reinforced by millenia of tradition. And when a Rogue Trader dynasty deals with the Adeptus Mechanicus to aquire the services of tech priests for his ships, I cannot imagine such vital elements will be left out. This offers very interesting RP paths.

FvR

It's not about old priviliges, it's about old rights. The Admech never gave up their independence and as such are still largely autonomous from the imperial authorities. Yes, they have a seat with the High Lords, but i view that of more of a practical solution to the problem that presented itself without the GE at the head of the Imperium: their was no more leader so the imperium's power factions each sent one representative to form a council. It's pretty much the only way to resolve the power void that was left in the wake of the Heresy. Any other solution would no doubt have engendered rebellion at one point or another (at an Imperium-wide scale, and in fact that did happen at one point when the ecclesiarchy got out of control).

Also: the ecclesiarchy only gained a seat with the high lords a while after that body was formed, initially they didn't have a seat.

Any war between the imperium and the admech would be self-defeating though. Neither faction can honestly expect to have much more then ruins after the end of such a war and because of that: the two'll remain inextricably linked unless something major happens to upset the power balance.

Privileges or rights, let's go High Gothic, Iura atque Privilegia. And it is still the Union of Mars, with the Adeptus Mechanicus recognising the Emperor as the avatar of the Omnissiah. The God-Emperor is still the core of this union, even if he is at the moment (well, lost 10,000 years) slightly indisposed...he is still the 'living king'. Within such a makeup, it is no more then normal that the Ad Mech takes a seat at the general ruling council.

But I think we are agreeing on the core case, that is that the Ad Mech has enormous prerogatives and rights in the Imperium, and you basically always have to ask them nicely.

FvR

P

van Riebeeck said:

It also really makes the interaction between a RT and the Adeptus Mechanicus very interesting. To take but a small example, if I am right one of the conditions under which the Ad Mech and the Imperium got bound in this tightly locked alliance was the complete and full right of the Ad Mech on any STC's discovered. As semi-independant actors with an Imperial writ, how does this apply to Rogue Traders? Do they have to hand that precious STC over under the Iron rule of Law (backed up with the fact that to keep their ship working they simply need the Ad Mech, not to mention the fact that the Ad Mech has some of the best ships availiable to humanity to back its threats up) or can they negotiate about its price and reward. And to complicate matters, in good old Imperial tradition, the Adeptus Mechanicus won't be a smooth centrally controlled body, and each forge world will vie for such a juicy price.

FvR

The AM pays well, very well for any recovered STC knowledge discovered by external sources. The full rights to recovered STC material is directly related to the AM monopoly of technology. If an organization outside the AM was able to hold onto STC materials they could theoretically begin developing technology independently of the AM. Not only would this threaten the AM's power base, but also has the added danger of tech-heresy. If a discoverer won't sell his recovered STC materials the AM could either either influence the Administratum/Arbites to recover it for them (claiming it a violation of the Treaty of Mars) or they could unilaterally seize the fragment themselves depending on the presiding Magos and the knowledge contained within the fragment. I would generally see them as buying the fragment and only resulting to force majeure as the exception.

According to the Union of Mars, it seems the Adeptus Mechanicus has full rights on any STC recovered by the Imperium, so theoretically they can just expect Imperial instances to hand over anything found. A reward would of course be logical, I suppose something like the prize money would be logical, with a well regulated system to evaluate the worth and determine the amount handed over. But any Imperial instance other then the Adeptus mechanicus holding on to an STC would be violating that ancient treaty.

Of course, are the Rogue Traders an Imperial Instance? Their warrants are most definitely Imperial, but their behaviour can....vary. Still, no one but a fool would hand over a STC to anything but the Adeptus Mechanicus. It will probably be a case of good bargaining to get out as much as possible.

FvR

van Riebeeck said:

the Adeptus Mechanicus recognising the Emperor as the avatar of the Omnissiah.

Now, obviously there's an argument for variance of doctrine here, but I was under the impression that the orthodox view within the Adeptus Mechanicus was that the Emperor is the Omnissiah, who is in turn the living embodiment of the Machine God. I know a lot of the time the distinction between Omnissiah and Machine God is blurry or outright overlooked, but that doesn't mean it should be.

Sorry, you are completely right, he is the Omissiah and seen as the earthly representative (i.e. my use of Avatar) of the machine god. Darn interesting religious complexities! Which makes the case for a theocratic personnal Union a bit stronger as well.

FvR

A fascinating topic, especially if one of the players has chosen an explorator and bashes heads with the rogue trader over their rights and freedoms.

I was forced to create a new character in my RT group and decided to play an explorator. From day one I played him not as a subordinate but rather as an advisor/ally. This didn't go well with the RT, who is more than a little tyrannical and likes to lord it over the other players.* So to deal with him (literally) I decided to write up a compact between him and the AdMech (personified in my person). Since my GM is into handouts and gimmicks I even have a physical copy of the compact in two languages (Gothic and Binary, for each of the sides).

For the services of the AdMech the whole dynasty accepted the exterritorial status of the AdMech on every ship and planet they own, sworn never to comment and criticize the AdMech in any way (added after certain indiscretions of the rt towards the chaplains behaviour in a brothel), and promised to provide free access to every place they own (in every form and size, meaning that I can march a company of skitarii to the bridge).

To add injury to insult, the dynasty has sworn to hand over every piece of archeotech and STC to me, no questions asked and without making copies. To smoothen things up I promised remuneration for the costs of transport to the nearest AdMech world.

And all this, just so that the RT and his crew could salvage and repair a Repulsive-class cruiser with enough archeotech to make me go squee in binary for a week.

Through a single written page the whole question of AdMech status has been cleared for my group, the moment someone doubts as to my right to close access to around 1/5th of the ship I just need to show them the compact. It's fun. But more seriously i find it sad that there is very little about the AdMech and their relationship with the RT-dynasty. A lot of stuff has to be made up on the fly when the group stumbles into a problem and this can be a problem when the whole group disagrees about what's canon and what's not. I even had a discussion about the treaty of mars and the proper way to make the cog-wheel symbol with my hands with the GM (about the symbol, does anyone have a graphic depiction?).

*-This is a long standing group, so there's no problem with playing such characters. We have known each other for too long to be bothered by role-playing a concept to the hilt (even if it kills someone).

Arag said:

I even had a discussion about the treaty of mars and the proper way to make the cog-wheel symbol with my hands with the GM (about the symbol, does anyone have a graphic depiction?).

The only way I've seen it done reasonably is by interlocking the fingers to create the appearance of two cogs. That can be seen on the picture of the Tech-Priest next to the Genetor alternate rank in Into the Storm (you have to look fairly closely, it's not particularly clear).