35 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

I must have missed all that optimism Luke was radiating.

It was in his eyes as he suckled on the blue milk nipple.

1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

That depends how far into the EU timeline you want to go. The Luke from Truce at Bakura and the Heir to Empire trilogy wasn't a superman. By Dark Empire, he's getting there (but that has a tendency to happen in comics), and the later Vong stuff has Jedi all over the place but generally over the top (all of them, not just Luke).

close to the end of EU stuff it was all over the top

6 hours ago, Daeglan said:

No we were not. We were given 1 scene out of cantext that makes no sense for a character the has learned this lesson.

Which was what we needed for the sequels’ story. We needed what Luke thought of that event...that he (true to form) has a moment of impulse and, just as he did in the Emperor’s throne room, pulled himself back from that edge. But the damage to Ben had already been done, and Luke’s world literally came crashing down. That’s it. What more does the story of the sequels need? Not what more do you want to know, but what does that story need?

4 hours ago, Inquisitor Tremayne said:

Um, yeah he did. He did the moment he threw his lightsaber away and professed to be a Jedi like his father before him. He realized the real gravity of new world he was in and he made his choice. That is THE most pivotal point of the entire OT. Luke at the end of EP VI finally became the New Hope alluded to in EP IV and V.

Because Jedi don’t have flaws, right?

That scene was Luke rejecting the the Emperor and the Dark Side, it wasn’t him ridding himself of his impulsivity, his struggles with doubt, overconfidence, ect.

Even in people’s precious EU, Luke struggled with temptation - and even falling at one point, briefly - as the Skywalker men all have that flaw.

However, disregarding the EU, Luke is the only one to actually succeed in fighting the temptation and remaining in the light when it tempts him - which arguably is the trait that makes him the best of the Skywalker men.

He was also manipulated by his masters, lied to, and pushed to kill when they didn’t even consider redemption.

And, as far as we know from canon, they didn’t teach him how to rebuild the order, only to get strong enough to kill the Sith.

No, Luke didn’t cast off all his flaws. That’s nonsense. All that was is him rejecting the Emperor and the Dark Side, in that moment .

42 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Which was what we needed for the sequels’ story. We needed what Luke thought of that event...that he (true to form) has a moment of impulse and, just as he did in the Emperor’s throne room, pulled himself back from that edge. But the damage to Ben had already been done, and Luke’s world literally came crashing down. That’s it. What more does the story of the sequels need? Not what more do you want to know, but what does that story need?

Clearly it was not because about half the fans find it not to be enough. What we get is a moment that does not make sense for someone who refuse to kill the father he didnt really know and he is going to kill the Nephew he does know over them being a little dark? I don't buy it at all. it does not make sense for his character at all with out a lot more context. Because Luke was willing to die rather than kill his father. Why would he kill his nephew? Because he sees darkness in him? He saw the light in Vader but he is going to kill his nephew? Really? Do you see the problem yet?

12 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Clearly it was not because about half the fans find it not to be enough.

*Some fans I saw complain about it online, and maybe in real life, too.

You can't say 'half of the fans' unless you talked to like... millions of people.

12 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Why would he kill his nephew? Because he sees darkness in him? He saw the light in Vader but he is going to kill his nephew? Really? Do you see the problem yet?

He almost killed his dad, too, but then pushed himself away from the darkness - exactly as he did with Ben. Nothing about that is new. He was only willing to die AFTER almost killing his dad, then bringing himself back from the edge. You can't ignore details to support a point, especially when they are right there in your face.

13 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

*Some fans I saw complain about it online, and maybe in real life, too.

You can't say 'half of the fans' unless you talked to like... millions of people.

He almost killed his dad, too, but then pushed himself away from the darkness - exactly as he did with Ben. Nothing about that is new. He was only willing to die AFTER almost killing his dad, then bringing himself back from the edge. You can't ignore details to support a point, especially when they are right there in your face.

wow you dismiss the 50% of the fans bit I am shocked its a LOT of the fans not everyone talks thou

Outside these forms I never seen anyone defend last jedi other than media {who I think got payed}

I think the fact solo bombed hard shows that it upset many of the fans

as for your point lets ignore the fact he was in a fight at the time yet Ben was SLEEPING

do you defend every thing about last jedi? or just taking a dump on who Luke was?

22 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

*Some fans I saw complain about it online, and maybe in real life, too.

You can't say 'half of the fans' unless you talked to like... millions of people.

He almost killed his dad, too, but then pushed himself away from the darkness - exactly as he did with Ben. Nothing about that is new. He was only willing to die AFTER almost killing his dad, then bringing himself back from the edge. You can't ignore details to support a point, especially when they are right there in your face.

His dad was trying to kill him. His nephew was sleeping. That is a pretty significa t difference.

11 minutes ago, Oldmike1 said:

wow you dismiss the 50% of the fans bit I am shocked its a LOT of the fans not everyone talks thou

Outside these forms I never seen anyone defend last jedi other than media {who I think got payed}

I think the fact solo bombed hard shows that it upset many of the fans

as for your point lets ignore the fact he was in a fight at the time yet Ben was SLEEPING

do you defend every thing about last jedi? or just taking a dump on who Luke was?

I think the fact that Solo bombed hard instead shows that many people were not interested in Solo.

29 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Clearly it was not because about half the fans find it not to be enough.

Source of percentage needed.

30 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

What we get is a moment that does not make sense for someone who refuse to kill the father he didnt really know and he is going to kill the Nephew he does know over them being a little dark?

And he refused to do that, too. And the dialogue explicitly states he saw more than “a little dark:”

“I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it.”

34 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I don't buy it at all. it does not make sense for his character at all with out a lot more context. Because Luke was willing to die rather than kill his father. Why would he kill his nephew? Because he sees darkness in him? He saw the light in Vader but he is going to kill his nephew?

It didn’t work for you. That’s fair. But you answer your own question here. He saw nothing but darkness and death in Ben, had a fleeting moment of impulse, but didn’t follow through on it. But, as you point out, he did see light in Vader...light that he didn’t see in Ben. Yet he still didn’t kill Ben, he felt shame for even momentarily considering killing him. You’re upset about what you call a lack of context, while choosing to ignore the context that was explicitly on screen.

37 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Really? Do you see the problem yet?

Really. Because there’s no problem to see.

Sorry it didn’t work for you. But the context you’re saying was lacking was right there on the screen.

24 minutes ago, Oldmike1 said:

wow you dismiss the 50% of the fans bit I am shocked its a LOT of the fans not everyone talks thou

Outside these forms I never seen anyone defend last jedi other than media {who I think got payed}

I think the fact solo bombed hard shows that it upset many of the fans

as for your point lets ignore the fact he was in a fight at the time yet Ben was SLEEPING

do you defend every thing about last jedi? or just taking a dump on who Luke was?

Anecdotes are not evidence - and nobody in the world actually personally knows 50% of the total number of Star Wars fans (and a Star Wars fan to me is anyone who's ever consumed a piece of SW media and likes it). I see/know more people who love TLJ than don't both online and in real life - who would have thought it depends on the circles you exist in, huh?

Solo didn't perform as well as most Star Wars films for a lot of reasons - one big one was that it came out very soon after Infinity War, which overperformed HARD, and LFL wanted to dump it in December, but Disney put it out in May.

I don't think TLJ took a dump on Luke at all - in fact, it's my favorite depiction of post-RotJ Luke, because I believe it fits his progression perfectly.

Opinions are wild, man, in that everyone has them.

10 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Anecdotes are not evidence - and nobody in the world actually personally knows 50% of the total number of Star Wars fans (and a Star Wars fan to me is anyone who's ever consumed a piece of SW media and likes it). I see/know more people who love TLJ than don't both online and in real life - who would have thought it depends on the circles you exist in, huh?

Solo didn't perform as well as most Star Wars films for a lot of reasons - one big one was that it came out very soon after Infinity War, which overperformed HARD, and LFL wanted to dump it in December, but Disney put it out in May.

I don't think TLJ took a dump on Luke at all - in fact, it's my favorite depiction of post-RotJ Luke, because I believe it fits his progression perfectly.

Opinions are wild, man, in that everyone has them.

a rotten tomatoes audience score of 43%

17 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Source of percentage needed.

And he refused to do that, too. And the dialogue explicitly states he saw more than “a little dark:”

“I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it.”

It didn’t work for you. That’s fair. But you answer your own question here. He saw nothing but darkness and death in Ben, had a fleeting moment of impulse, but didn’t follow through on it. But, as you point out, he did see light in Vader...light that he didn’t see in Ben. Yet he still didn’t kill Ben, he felt shame for even momentarily considering killing him. You’re upset about what you call a lack of context, while choosing to ignore the context that was explicitly on screen.

Really. Because there’s no problem to see.

Sorry it didn’t work for you. But the context you’re saying was lacking was right there on the screen.

Rotten Tomatoes audience score of 43%

And “I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it.” doesnt make sense given his father. and creating self fulfilling prophesies is stupid and not like the Luke we saw in Ep vi who ignored what he was told to do what was right. I dont see that Luke killing his nephew. Or even considering it. Not when he was willing to see the good in Vader who clearly did more than Ben did to deserve killing.

7 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Rotten Tomatoes audience score of 43%

And that proves, what, exactly? Most people don't go on Rotten Tomatoes to leave reviews, and 218,467 is barely the population of a small city.

Hardly anywhere near "half of all Star Wars fans" - plus, there was an actual review bombing campaign by a certain part of the internet mad about women or something. (And don't say it's bull, because they did the same thing to Black Panther and Captain Marvel, too.) All part of the reason they changed their policy to be more discrete with vetting user reviews.

15 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

a rotten tomatoes audience score of 43%

Rotten Tomatoes is a joke. All these aggregate sites are a joke, but RT more so than most.

The Last Jedi also has an "A" CinemaScore, which is tied for the highest among Star Wars films (the other two are The Force Awakens and Rogue One).

CinemaScore, at least, has a tried and true methodology they use, and actually ensures to talk to people who actually saw the film, right when the movie is over - RT lets anyone leave a review, even if they've never seen the film.

I am starting to see that real world politics seems to shape ones view of last jedi more then most movies

14 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Rotten Tomatoes audience score of 43%

And we’re certain that 100% of the audience scored it on Rotten Tomatoes?

And we’re factoring into that score the segment of the audience that openly stated an intent to game RT’s system to the negative?

16 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

And “I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it.” doesnt make sense given his father.

Why?

Ben and Vader were two different people, under different circumstances. Why does seeing good in Vader preclude, in that moment, seeing none in Ben?

18 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

and creating self fulfilling prophesies is stupid and not like the Luke we saw in Ep vi who ignored what he was told to do what was right.

What self-fulfilling prophecy? Luke still did what was right. As he’s been established to do ever since 1977, he was tempted to act impulsively, and as he did in the throne room, he curbed that impulse in favor of the right thing.

22 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I dont see that Luke killing his nephew. Or even considering it. Not when he was willing to see the good in Vader who clearly did more than Ben did to deserve killing.

And neither did Luke. He had a moment of weakness, and stopped himself before acting upon it. Unlike in the throne room, when Vader pushed all the right buttons and had Luke swinging and hammering away at Vader for a good while, feeding on his anger and fear.

But, hey...as I’ve said, if it didn’t work for you, that’s fair. That doesn’t make it an inherent flaw in the storytelling. Myself, I understand the storytelling decisions behind making Rey a Palpatine. But it still didn’t work for me, and I still think it was a poor choice. I’m well aware, though, that it comes down to my personal preference.

8 minutes ago, Oldmike1 said:

I am starting to see that real world politics seems to shape ones view of last jedi more then most movies

My dude, you were decrying diversity in Star Wars in another thread, so stop with this.

8 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

My dude, you were decrying diversity in Star Wars in anothernot thread, so stop with this.

no FORCED diversity I hate tokens and how "promoting diversity" seems to go hand and hand with piss poor writing

I don't care about what someone looks like I just want good storys and lore that is set to be followed

(down with recons and making things that completely destroy how the setting work "like hyper speed ramming" )

27 minutes ago, Oldmike1 said:

no FORCED diversity I hate tokens and how "promoting diversity" seems to go hand and hand with piss poor writing

That's real world politics, so don't decry others for bringing it in when you do yourself. But, also Star Wars is political, everything is political. Star Wars has long leaned into progressive ideals in its themes and messages.

27 minutes ago, Oldmike1 said:

I don't care about what someone looks like I just want good storys and lore that is set to be followed

Not saying you're doing it, but this is a common dogwhistle used by the same people who review bombed TLJ for having prominent women in the story, or a person of color, or whatever else.

19 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

That's real world politics, so don't decry others for bringing it in when you do yourself. But, also Star Wars is political, everything is political. Star Wars has long leaned into progressive ideals in its themes and messages.

Not saying you're doing it, but this is a common dogwhistle used by the same people who review bombed TLJ for having prominent women in the story, or a person of color, or whatever else.

The problem if the producers forced their view into Star Wars. Instead of taking the humanist approch the original movies took.

1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:

And we’re certain that 100% of the audience scored it on Rotten Tomatoes?

And we’re factoring into that score the segment of the audience that openly stated an intent to game RT’s system to the negative?

Why?

Ben and Vader were two different people, under different circumstances. Why does seeing good in Vader preclude, in that moment, seeing none in Ben?

What self-fulfilling prophecy? Luke still did what was right. As he’s been established to do ever since 1977, he was tempted to act impulsively, and as he did in the throne room, he curbed that impulse in favor of the right thing.

And neither did Luke. He had a moment of weakness, and stopped himself before acting upon it. Unlike in the throne room, when Vader pushed all the right buttons and had Luke swinging and hammering away at Vader for a good while, feeding on his anger and fear.

But, hey...as I’ve said, if it didn’t work for you, that’s fair. That doesn’t make it an inherent flaw in the storytelling. Myself, I understand the storytelling decisions behind making Rey a Palpatine. But it still didn’t work for me, and I still think it was a poor choice. I’m well aware, though, that it comes down to my personal preference.

Why? because it doesnt make sense for a person who learned a lesson to make a mistake 10x worse. Luke saw what acting on emotion did. I just dont see Luke making an extremely emotional response to kill Ben. Not to mention he went there while he was asleep to do so. It just does not fit the Luke Skywalker we left Episode VI with. And I saw darkness in him is not good enough to justify this change in character. If Kylo had murdered all his students then I could see Luke having this moment of weakness. But not from just seeing darkness in him. Also dont forget Luke got a really good lesson in not just acting on visions when he lost his hand from going to save his friends...So as I said we need way way more context for the scene in Episode VIII to make any character sense.

23 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

The problem if the producers forced their view into Star Wars. Instead of taking the humanist approch the original movies took.

And you still have to show any example of this beyond saying it is "bad writing", which is a completely seperate issue that has got nothing to do with the politics.

Rey isn't a "Mary Sue" who ignores "established canon" because she's a woman. She does that (alledgedly) because she's created by JJ Abrams.

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Why? because it doesnt make sense for a person who learned a lesson to make a mistake 10x worse. Luke saw what acting on emotion did.

Yeah. Several times. And still kept doing it.

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I just dont see Luke making an extremely emotional response to kill Ben. Not to mention he went there while he was asleep to do so.

No, he didn’t. He went there while Ben was sleeping to check on the darkness he’d seemed to sense in Ben. He saw something far worse than expected, had a thought that he could end it that lasted a heartbeat before he realized he’d been in that same position before and curbed that impulse. (It’s not a mistake or coincidence that, as he steps back from that irrevocable action, he gazes at his saber in his mechanical hand just as he did in the throne room as he stopped himself from wailing away on Vader. We in the audience are intentionally being led to make that connection.)

9 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

It just does not fit the Luke Skywalker we left Episode VI with. And I saw darkness in him is not good enough to justify this change in character.

A Luke Skywalker who, in a moment of surprise and panic that his loved ones would die horribly, considers giving in to a dark impulse for a flickering moment doesn’t fit the same Luke Skywalker who, when his newfound sister was threatened, went on a rampage against the father he’d said he wanted to redeem?

11 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Also dont forget Luke got a really good lesson in not just acting on visions when he lost his hand from going to save his friends..

And, he didn’t act on what he saw, did he?

12 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

So as I said we need way way more context for the scene in Episode VIII to make any character sense.

I respectfully disagree for the reasons stated.

Sorry it didn’t work for you. It’s natural, when we end up not enjoying something that we’d hoped to, to look for some inherent fault or flaw in that thing. We wanted to like it, and we didn’t, so there must be some blame to assign. More often than not, though, it’s just a matter of personal tastes, and it’s bound to happen sometime, even when it’s something we usually enjoy. (I’m a huge U2 fan, but I still haven’t listened to all of Songs of Experience , because what I’ve heard doesn’t hit me the same way most of their library does. It happens. Last time was with Zooropa . But, over time, I’ve come to appreciate a fair number of its tracks.) Seems like that’s what happened here.