2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:Which is part of my point. But they clearly still wanted him to be. So they had to replace Snoke to make that possible. But since they didnt really have plan they let RJ kill Snoke. Which became a problem....
I see no reason to replace Snoke even if Kylo Ren gets redeemed at the end of the episode IX.
5 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:I see no reason to replace Snoke even if Kylo Ren gets redeemed at the end of the episode IX.
I feel like they should have had a plan so the story made sense and had a clear direction. unlike what we got where it is clear each director had a different vision...
Scary villain =/= main antagonist.
Kylo Ren is ABSOLUTELY the main antagonist. He is the foil to Rey - as the main protagonist - and the one who complicates her journey.
Snoke is like the tertiary antagonist, at best - Hux would be the secondary antagonist, likely.
Snoke is there to give development to Kylo, which he did partway through TLJ and was thus not needed anymore. His purpose is nothing more - Palpatine basically says as much at the beginning of TRoS.
45 minutes ago, Daeglan said:The shadowy figure is the one controlling the up and front villain. look at the dynamic from the prequel trilogy and the original trilogy. You have the face of evil Dooku and Maul and Vader. Then you have the one pulling the strings that is utterly irredeemable.
That doesn’t make the shadowy figure the primary villain/antagonist, though. That function is fulfilled by the one that serves as the focus of the greatest challenge to the hero/protagonist. Sometimes, yes, that primary villain can have a superior, and the superior may be part of the story. But the superior isn’t inherently the primary villain.
50 minutes ago, Daeglan said:When vader kills Palps he frees himself and can turn away from the light. When Kylo kills Snoke and decides to take his place be makes himself irredeemable.
Perhaps he does...or perhaps he doesn’t become irredeemable. It depends on how the story progresses. Personally, just watching TFA, I would have called Ren irredeemable, especially in light of killing Han. (If not from an in-story perspective, from an audience perspective; he killed one of the most beloved characters in film, so forget it.) Believe it or not, contrary to your conclusion, it was TLJ that made me think a redemption was possible for him. Even with his taking Snoke’s place, he wasn’t acting from a place of true evil, but of a desperate desire to fill an emptiness, and having been convinced that he was a failure to his “light side legacy,” and being encouraged to embrace only one aspect of his grandfather’s.
56 minutes ago, Daeglan said:it leaves the story little room to maneuver. So much so they had to effectively stuff in another movies worth of stuff into this movie to kind of fix it.
I’m sounding like a broken record saying this, but they didn’t “have to.” There was nothing that required “fixing.” If the overall story of TRoS is really how Abrams felt it needed to go, it could have been done without having to (as I agree it felt like) wedge two movies into a single movie’s runtime. It doesn’t even require Palpatine (or for Palpatine to have been pulling the strings all along). Veering off into just a wild spitball, for example, Ren’s arc can remain largely unchanged. Except instead of Palpatine, Ren discovers Exogol and initiates a dark side ritual that will take a while to brew. (If we feel Palpatine is absolutely necessary, instead of Palpatine already being back, Ren starts a ritual to bring him back, in body or spirit.) Our Heroes race to stop him, Leia reaches out the same way, Ben is redeemed in much the same way, but now the ritual has to be stopped or, in the words of REM, it’s the end of the world as we know it. I’d say that redeeming (And sacrificing?) himself to stop an ultimate evil that he himself put in motion would pack a stronger punch than an out-of-left-field offscreen return of a previously dead villain (with that return making any future defeat he faces seem hollow...what’s to stop him from coming back again?).
18 minutes ago, Daeglan said:I feel like they should have had a plan so the story made sense and had a clear direction. unlike what we got where it is clear each director had a different vision...
The OT’s “plan” was all used up by the end of its first installment. That’s why the conclusion of the third was the exact same thing: destroy the Death Star. (Star Wars even told us in its opening crawl that the Death Star’s destruction would restore freedom to the galaxy...‘cept it didn’t.) Having a few major beats to hit is far more effective than having a detailed plan. It allows for improvisation. Such as Vader being Luke’s father. Or, for that matter, Vader surviving the first movie at all.
39 minutes ago, Daeglan said:I feel like they should have had a plan so the story made sense and had a clear direction. unlike what we got where it is clear each director had a different vision...
I feel they really had a plan, and then somebody, probably Bob Eiger, panicked and threw away the plan.
20 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:I feel they really had a plan, and then somebody, probably Bob Eiger, panicked and threw away the plan.
It felt like they were in such a hurry to start the sequel they didnt take the time to work out a plan like they did with Marvel. Where they had a strong producer saying x y and z have to happen in this movie so they tie together. So I dont think there was a plan. I think All JJ did was set up a mystery... but he never seems to think the mystery through to a satisfying conclusion. And Rian per his own words just does what he wants...All of this is indicative or poor leadership at the top of lucasfilm...
I don't really believe that TLJ closed many doors. It set Kylo up as the supreme big bad whom wanted to break everything, a heroline with a connection to the big bad closing the door to him and the resistance and this particular wing of the new order badly damaged and has to find a way to persist from the ashes of the resistance. It's a pretty solid climax that established the status quo of this setting so that when the next one started up; we know the deal going into it. Kylo was especially dangerous as a villain because his only motivation is to destroy everything, republic, then probably even his new order. That's a terrifying motivation for a main villain to have. Just a pity that Kylo doesn't even get 3 minutes in the next movie to exercise that agency before he's immediately subjugated by a old BBEG.
Compared to Force Awakens, that could've concluded at any point before, but had to have the hand held right the way to Rey and Luke's first meeting? It doesn't leave very much room to move either. You either have to immediately jump into that scene and run with what you got (and honestly, the Saber toss was one of the best moments of the movie, because it symbiosed three decades of hard work; wasted without a single line of dialogue. Beautiful.) or include a time skip with ton's of flashbacks. Basically, it obligated anyone who picked up the project to deal with this gigantic task of having to immediately push forward a new movie without any time to breathe. It's also worth noting that up to this point; no star wars movie has ever simply jumped from one cliff-hanger to another, but rather chose one climax to establish the Status quo (Peace on Naboo, the Clone Wars had begun, and the war is over, but the empire is alive. e.c.t) of the next. To argue that TLJ closed all the doors, while proclaiming the Force Awakens to do otherwise is rather unfair.
That being said, I'm done here pretty much, just expressing my opinion on it all. One thing that *Really* grinds my gears though, is why the **** is Mandolorian being released one episode at a time in the UK? When the rest of the world has seen all of it? RAWRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR XD
5 minutes ago, LordBritish said:One thing that *Really* grinds my gears though, is why the **** is Mandolorian being released one episode at a time in the UK? When the rest of the world has seen all of it? RAWRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR XD
Because it was a weekly release here, too?
4 minutes ago, LordBritish said:(and honestly, the Saber toss was one of the best moments of the movie, because it symbiosed three decades of hard work; wasted without a single line of dialogue. Beautiful.)
and to me it was the point I knew that RJ had no clue who Luke was and one of many parts of TLJ I strongly dislike (though now I try I cant think of ONE part of TLJ I even like a little bit)
41 minutes ago, Oldmike1 said:and to me it was the point I knew that RJ had no clue who Luke was and one of many parts of TLJ I strongly dislike (though now I try I cant think of ONE part of TLJ I even like a little bit)
That’s a fair, honest reaction.
For me, since we didn’t know who the new continuity’s “30 years later” Luke was, either, it was fair game and helped me learn who he’d become.
1 hour ago, Daeglan said:It felt like they were in such a hurry to start the sequel they didnt take the time to work out a plan like they did with Marvel. Where they had a strong producer saying x y and z have to happen in this movie so they tie together. So I dont think there was a plan. I think All JJ did was set up a mystery... but he never seems to think the mystery through to a satisfying conclusion. And Rian per his own words just does what he wants...All of this is indicative or poor leadership at the top of lucasfilm...
Then again, it's been reported that it's Disney who wanted JJ Abrams for Episode VII, not Lucasfilm.
2 hours ago, Nytwyng said:Because it was a weekly release here, too?
Yeah. But it's a year *after* the US release. Given how the internet works if people didn't pirate it first, they would've spoiled on everything that happened in that show long before we had opportunity to see it. That was the joke.
2 hours ago, Oldmike1 said:and to me it was the point I knew that RJ had no clue who Luke was and one of many parts of TLJ I strongly dislike (though now I try I cant think of ONE part of TLJ I even like a little bit)
Fair enough. Our tastes differ on that front and that's totally cool by me.
In contrast, I had a lot of bits I liked in most movies; I found the Force Awakens a fun soft reboot, if lacking in substance. I found TLJ very surprising and capable of playing off more then just nostalga, which had basically been the big deal of the last two movies, but a bit convoluted in places. I found ROSW populated by fairly forgettable characters outside of the Reylo dynamic (which was reset) and a lacklustre blockbuster story that required more sweet popcorn to digest, but the lightsaber clashes and the force going being dialled up to 11 finally gives us a insight to what a epic level force and destiny campaign could look like which is something we've honestly lacked up until this point. Then again I've always been a bit weird like that; I find it very hard to hate anything especially strongly.
Edited by LordBritish1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:That’s a fair, honest reaction.
For me, since we didn’t know who the new continuity’s “30 years later” Luke was, either, it was fair game and helped me learn who he’d become.
I VASTLY prefer the official Luke rather than the weird "superman Jedi" Luke was in the EU. The Luke we see in TLJ is the natural progression - EU Luke is just not a logical progression, imo.
I think that's prudent to remember, too - there was no "official Luke" after RotJ, being that the EU was largely a mix of varying levels of what was considered actual canon, so the TLJ Luke is the first, and only, official Luke, really.
Edited by StarkJunior2 hours ago, Nytwyng said:That’s a fair, honest reaction.
For me, since we didn’t know who the new continuity’s “30 years later” Luke was, either, it was fair game and helped me learn who he’d become.
My problem is a drastic change like they made needs to happen on screen and shouldnt be relegated to a.couple outnof context scenes. Doing a comic to tell thenstory is lame. To me the fall of Kylo was the story worthy problem.and that shouldnhave happen at the beginning of 7. A lot of this could have been fixed by starting the story at the beginning of the story worthy problem.
1 hour ago, StarkJunior said:I VASTLY prefer the official Luke rather than the weird "superman Jedi" Luke was in the EU. The Luke we see in TLJ is the natural progression - EU Luke is just not a logical progression, imo.
I think that's prudent to remember, too - there was no "official Luke" after RotJ, being that the EU was largely a mix of varying levels of what was considered actual canon, so the TLJ Luke is the first, and only, official Luke, really.
I hate the TLJ Luke. That doesnt feel anythingnlike luke. That does not mean we needed the dialed to 20 luke of the EU.
2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:My problem is a drastic change like they made needs to happen on screen and shouldnt be relegated to a.couple outnof context scenes. Doing a comic to tell thenstory is lame. To me the fall of Kylo was the story worthy problem.and that shouldnhave happen at the beginning of 7. A lot of this could have been fixed by starting the story at the beginning of the story worthy problem.
Matter of taste and preference.
We didn't start out in '77 seeing the fall of Anakin. We jumped into the middle of the action of the conflict between the Rebels and the Empire. Similarly, with the sequel trilogy, we jumped into the middle of the action of the conflict between the Resistance and the First Order. Keep in mind that Luke's a supporting character in TLJ, not a lead. So, we got the information that we needed to facilitate his role in this particular story.
49 minutes ago, Daeglan said:My problem is a drastic change like they made needs to happen on screen and shouldnt be relegated to a.couple outnof context scenes. Doing a comic to tell thenstory is lame. To me the fall of Kylo was the story worthy problem.and that shouldnhave happen at the beginning of 7. A lot of this could have been fixed by starting the story at the beginning of the story worthy problem.
See, here's he thing: we aren't seeing a drastic change. We are seeing the logical extrapolation of what an older Luke would be like based on the original trilogy. He didn't magically shed all of his character flaws at the end of Return Of The Jedi.
14 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:See, here's he thing: we aren't seeing a drastic change. We are seeing the logical extrapolation of what an older Luke would be like based on the original trilogy. He didn't magically shed all of his character flaws at the end of Return Of The Jedi.
Precisely.
1 hour ago, micheldebruyn said:See, here's he thing: we aren't seeing a drastic change. We are seeing the logical extrapolation of what an older Luke would be like based on the original trilogy. He didn't magically shed all of his character flaws at the end of Return Of The Jedi.
No that is not a logical progression for the character. Luke was far more optimistic. It is only a.logical progression if.we see all of the events that lead him to change from the optimistc character he was at the end of return of the jedi and this Luke.
14 minutes ago, Daeglan said:No that is not a logical progression for the character. Luke was far more optimistic. It is only a.logical progression if.we see all of the events that lead him to change from the optimistc character he was at the end of return of the jedi and this Luke.
And we were given what we needed to know about that for the sequels' story, just as, for example, we were ultimately given what we needed to know about Vader's past for the OT's story in those three films.
43 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:And we were given what we needed to know about that for the sequels' story, just as, for example, we were ultimately given what we needed to know about Vader's past for the OT's story in those three films.
No we were not. We were given 1 scene out of cantext that makes no sense for a character the has learned this lesson.
Edited by Daeglan4 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:He didn't magically shed all of his character flaws at the end of Return Of The Jedi.
Um, yeah he did. He did the moment he threw his lightsaber away and professed to be a Jedi like his father before him. He realized the real gravity of new world he was in and he made his choice. That is THE most pivotal point of the entire OT. Luke at the end of EP VI finally became the New Hope alluded to in EP IV and V.
4 hours ago, Daeglan said:Luke was far more optimistic.
I must have missed all that optimism Luke was radiating.
8 hours ago, StarkJunior said:I VASTLY prefer the official Luke rather than the weird "superman Jedi" Luke was in the EU. The Luke we see in TLJ is the natural progression - EU Luke is just not a logical progression, imo.
That depends how far into the EU timeline you want to go. The Luke from Truce at Bakura and the Heir to Empire trilogy wasn't a superman. By Dark Empire, he's getting there (but that has a tendency to happen in comics), and the later Vong stuff has Jedi all over the place but generally over the top (all of them, not just Luke).