1 minute ago, micheldebruyn said:

Well... that's certainly a very... creative reading of what he actually said.

“Whenever you are writing, let’s say you are creating your own universe, you said you don’t think about actors, you are starting something from scratch, how is that approach versus something where you have a pre-existing universe? If you are writing characters for Star Wars, you have this universe, you have characters that everybody knows, and then now you are doing something from scratch. Do you find your approach is different for that?”

Johnson would respond, “No, not at all. Because I don’t really think in terms of universes or in terms of creating worlds or whatever. That’s not that interesting to me.”

He continued, “The only thing that is interesting to me is story. And the story specific to, like whether you are writing a Star Wars film that’s part of a three movie trilogy or a quote unquote original thing like Knives Out , you are still telling a story that is new to the thing that you are doing that it has to work within the context of that movie.”

Johnson added, “So, to me the notion of what’s the entire galaxy or world that you are creating or something, I can’t imagine getting excited about creating that. To me what I’m excited about is creating a two hour long experience for an audience to have in the theater. And that means how they engage moment to moment with the story and the characters that are on the screen. And that doesn’t change in either one of those.”

there's little "creative reading", he's not interested in characters or universe, he verbatim says only his story matters to him

That's not what he said at all, but alright.

Rian doesn't make movies like TRoS (or even some of the prequels) - which, while still having character moments and development - is largely about the callbacks to previous things and the acknowledgment of the larger universe, with cameos and all that, and the spectacle of the universe.

What he does so is exactly what the TLJ was - a movie MUCH more about the characters and their moments and a story that doesn't really break beyond them. He didn't say "**** the expanded universe" or whatever else. That's stretching A LOT.

And, for the record, he did worldbuild in TLJ - Canto Bight and Crait, for one. So, yeah, not the best take.

1 hour ago, MB -Fr- said:

Sure the passing of Fischer threw a wrench, but I remember tros as being a lot of retconning tlj, it wouldn't be such a mess if it didn't have to,

Well, it didn’t “have to.” Abrams chose to. No one held a gun to his head and forced him to do it.

13 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

That's not what he said at all, but alright.

Rian doesn't make movies like TRoS (or even some of the prequels) - which, while still having character moments and development - is largely about the callbacks to previous things and the acknowledgment of the larger universe, with cameos and all that, and the spectacle of the universe.

What he does so is exactly what the TLJ was - a movie MUCH more about the characters and their moments and a story that doesn't really break beyond them. He didn't say "**** the expanded universe" or whatever else. That's stretching A LOT.

And, for the record, he did worldbuild in TLJ - Canto Bight and Crait, for one. So, yeah, not the best take.

I don't disagre he didn't say "F the expanded universe", but he clearly said "I don't care about it". He wrote his story without consideration to ward the previous established universe and without consideration toward the one that would film the next movie.

Which is why the next movie & the trilogy is such a mess: his movie exists on his own & is his self contained movie instead of being part of a greater story.

& on a personal note, I wouldn't call one-dimensional evil capitalist planet & salt field planet great feats of worldbuilding. But I accept that's only my opinion

4 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Well, it didn’t “have to.” Abrams chose to. No one held a gun to his head and forced him to do it.

What choice did he really have?

TLJ closed all the story hooks JJ had launched in TFA and killed the BBEG. He had to salvage something

4 minutes ago, MB -Fr- said:

I don't disagre he didn't say "F the expanded universe", but he clearly said "I don't care about it". He wrote his story without consideration to ward the previous established universe and without consideration toward the one that would film the next movie.

Which is why the next movie & the trilogy is such a mess: his movie exists on his own & is his self contained movie instead of being part of a greater story.

& on a personal note, I wouldn't call one-dimensional evil capitalist planet & salt field planet great feats of worldbuilding. But I accept that's only my opinion

while I agree I think it's easy to put all the blame on rian johnson. TFA didnt really give the best premise for a sequel either. the first order got its *** kicked in ep 7, rey was already established as being oddly powerful without having any training whatsoever, luke for some mysterious reason LEFT the new republic and hid on a solitary world, leaving behind only some mcguffin to eventually find him anyway.

I dont like TLJ at all, I was beyond belief so many times when I saw the movie for how badly it treated the star wars lore and the original cast but in all honesty I dont know if I would have come up with a very good story myself after TFA^^

46 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Which if they had been smart in the year before TLJ came out they should have swapped them. so that 8 was Leia's exit and 9 was Lukes exit.

See previously, re: significant rewrites and reshoots. While it may have been possible (see: Solo) to remake most of the movie in such a short window, how probable would that be?

46 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

But then TLJ poorly handled things.

To some people’s tastes, sure. That’s a subjective conclusion, however.

46 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

It also left nowhere for Ep 9 to go.

While I’d say it left things pretty wide open for 9 to do just about anything. The Resistance was on the ropes and needed to be reinforced, while Luke’s return reignited hope in the galaxy. The hero and villain were in place without the need for the villain to have a boss for the hero to also need to defeat, and even a redemption arc for Ren/Ben would still be a possibility. There were plenty of directions to go. Including, for better or for worse, what we got in December.

It's really only an opinion that TLJ's writing didn't respect the previous established lore.

In my opinion, it did it really, really well.

4 minutes ago, MB -Fr- said:

What choice did he really have?

TLJ closed all the story hooks JJ had launched in TFA and killed the BBEG. He had to salvage something

Abrams doesn't launch story hooks, he builds empty mystery boxes.

He likes to set up mysteries that he has no idea how to resolve, and generally isn't interested in resolving. Its very easy t set up something cool if you never have to provide the pay-off. It's Lost all over again.

Ryan did the smart thing: rather than provide some unsatisfactory resolution to Abram's mystery boxes, he largely ignored them.

And Snoke never was the BBEG. Even in TFA he seemed more like a pointless smoke monster than an actual serious villain.

2 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

And Snoke never was the BBEG. Even in TFA he seemed more like a pointless smoke monster than an actual serious villain.

I often wonder if had Carrie not passed away, if it wound up the ST never really had a BBEG, in the sense of like a Palpatine sort. I could have seen Kylo being the overall antagonist of the ST, but one who struggles and is ultimately redeemed in the end, by his mother.

It would have been interesting if the force he ends up fighting upon being redeemed is not a singular entity, but the First Order itself. Wherein he would sacrifice himself to save the galaxy.

14 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

See previously, re: significant rewrites and reshoots. While it may have been possible (see: Solo) to remake most of the movie in such a short window, how probable would that be?

To some people’s tastes, sure. That’s a subjective conclusion, however.

While I’d say it left things pretty wide open for 9 to do just about anything. The Resistance was on the ropes and needed to be reinforced, while Luke’s return reignited hope in the galaxy. The hero and villain were in place without the need for the villain to have a boss for the hero to also need to defeat, and even a redemption arc for Ren/Ben would still be a possibility. There were plenty of directions to go. Including, for better or for worse, what we got in December.

The problem is the main villain was dead. and the secondary one didnt turn away from the dark. And we ended up with a very frenetic 3rd movie because JJ had to add a bunch of stuff to make the finish make sense. The RJ movie would make sense for a first movie not a second movie.

7 minutes ago, MB -Fr- said:

What choice did he really have?

Plenty. But, he chose to go for nostalgia beats that really only work for the audience, not the characters. It was a couple hours of, “Hey, remember that thing you liked in another movie? Here it is again!” Which can be fun, don’t get me wrong. It simply felt completely disconnected from not only TLJ, but Abrams’ own TFA.

10 minutes ago, MB -Fr- said:

TLJ closed all the story hooks JJ had launched in TFA

Let’s take this as a given, for the sake of discussion (even though I disagree). If it did this, it dangled new ones in place of the ones removed. Abrams himself seemed to neuter the First Order at the end of TFA, but they stuck around and (according to TLJ’s crawl) took over the galaxy despite a large piece of their infrastructure and muscle being destroyed. Ren killed Snoke and took his place, but was still conflicted and was acting out of a need to prove he was “dark.” Poe started to demonstrate what it meant to be an effective leader. Finn was committed to the Resistance, rather than just trying to run away from the First Order. Rey had chosen the Jedi path. And more. Plenty of hooks for someone to hang story on.

25 minutes ago, MB -Fr- said:

and killed the BBEG

I don’t remember Kylo Ren being killed in TLJ. I’ll have to rewatch it.

26 minutes ago, MB -Fr- said:

He had to salvage something

Again, not really.

5 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

The problem is the main villain was dead.

Kylo Ren wasn’t dead.

6 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

and the secondary one didnt turn away from the dark.

Why would Snoke or Hux turn away from the dark?

6 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

And we ended up with a very frenetic 3rd movie because JJ had to add a bunch of stuff to make the finish make sense.

Again, he didn’t “have to” add anything. But he chose to. And those additions didn’t really make much sense.

7 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

The RJ movie would make sense for a first movie not a second movie.

I found it to work just fine as a second movie. Obviously, your mileage varied.

16 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Kylo Ren wasn’t dead.

Why would Snoke or Hux turn away from the dark?

Again, he didn’t “have to” add anything. But he chose to. And those additions didn’t really make much sense.

I found it to work just fine as a second movie. Obviously, your mileage varied.

Primary villain is Snoke.
Hux is a rival but is not the secondary villain Kylo is. But then he kills the primary villain and steps into his shoes.

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Primary villain is Snoke.
Hux is a rival but is not the secondary villain Kylo is. But then he kills the primary villain and steps into his shoes.

I would disagree. He was no more the main villain than the Emperor was in the OT, a shadowy figure for the primary villain to report to. In terms of story, Vader and Ren were the primary villains.

2 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

I would disagree. He was no more the main villain than the Emperor was in the OT, a shadowy figure for the primary villain to report to. In terms of story, Vader and Ren were the primary villains.

No. The shadowy figure pulling the strings is the primary villain. When Vader throws Palps down the shaft he freed himself. Kylo kills Snoke and steps into his shoes. making himself irredeemable. but in order to fix this JJ brings back palpatine so he can have Kylo redeem hims self....See the problem now?

10 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

I would disagree. He was no more the main villain than the Emperor was in the OT, a shadowy figure for the primary villain to report to. In terms of story, Vader and Ren were the primary villains.

Kylo was way to much of a joke to be a big bad. He is having fits and destroying parts of a ship for no reason. Then gets his *** handed to him in the 1st movie how can you fear him if he loses to someone with no training at all.

16 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

No. The shadowy figure pulling the strings is the primary villain. When Vader throws Palps down the shaft he freed himself. Kylo kills Snoke and steps into his shoes. making himself irredeemable. but in order to fix this JJ brings back palpatine so he can have Kylo redeem hims self....See the problem now?

No, I don’t. Because the shadowy figure isn’t the focus of the antagonism. Ren stepping into Snoke’s place doesn’t make him irredeemable. Without Palpatine, his journey to redemption takes a different path. What that path would have been, we don’t know...assuming, of course, that’s where they opted to go for the final episode under different circumstances. (With Carrie Fisher still available and all things equal, I imagine that Leia would have been even more active in the redemption than she was in what we got.

14 minutes ago, Oldmike1 said:

Kylo was way to much of a joke to be a big bad. He is having fits and destroying parts of a ship for no reason. Then gets his *** handed to him in the 1st movie how can you fear him if he loses to someone with no training at all.

I’d say the level of insecurity and instability that leads to those outbursts can be plenty frightening. I’ve encountered people who lash out like that, and it’s far more chilling than funny.

Likewise, I’m not sure that I’d call someone bleeding out from a bowcaster gut shot still standing at the end of a fight with someone they’re under orders to capture “having his *** handed to him.” But, as I said to Daeglan, it’s clear your mileage varies.

6 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

No, I don’t. Because the shadowy figure isn’t the focus of the antagonism. Ren stepping into Snoke’s place doesn’t make him irredeemable. Without Palpatine, his journey to redemption takes a different path. What that path would have been, we don’t know...assuming, of course, that’s where they opted to go for the final episode under different circumstances. (With Carrie Fisher still available and all things equal, I imagine that Leia would have been even more active in the redemption than she was in what we got.

The shadowy figure is the one controlling the up and front villain. look at the dynamic from the prequel trilogy and the original trilogy. You have the face of evil Dooku and Maul and Vader. Then you have the one pulling the strings that is utterly irredeemable. When vader kills Palps he frees himself and can turn away from the light. When Kylo kills Snoke and decides to take his place be makes himself irredeemable. it leaves the story little room to maneuver. So much so they had to effectively stuff in another movies worth of stuff into this movie to kind of fix it. But it makes this movie feel too busy...

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Primary villain is Snoke.
Hux is a rival but is not the secondary villain Kylo is. But then he kills the primary villain and steps into his shoes.

How is Snoke a primary anything? He is barely a presence in the first film, and gets killed off halfway during the second one.

Also, Palpatine was never a primary villain in the original trilogy either. It was always Vader.

1 minute ago, micheldebruyn said:

How is Snoke a primary anything? He is barely a presence in the first film, and gets killed off halfway during the second one.

Also, Palpatine was never a primary villain in the original trilogy either. It was always Vader.

He is the guy controlling things. That makes him the Primary. Just like Palps is the Primary badguy in the Prequels and the OT

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

No. The shadowy figure pulling the strings is the primary villain. When Vader throws Palps down the shaft he freed himself. Kylo kills Snoke and steps into his shoes. making himself irredeemable. but in order to fix this JJ brings back palpatine so he can have Kylo redeem hims self....See the problem now?

The primary villain is the one with the screen time and the character arc. Palpatine was more plot device than character in the original trilogy.

And the problem is that Kylo is redeemed when he really shouldn't be.

3 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

The primary villain is the one with the screen time and the character arc. Palpatine was more plot device than character in the original trilogy.

And the problem is that Kylo is redeemed when he really shouldn't be.

Which is part of my point. But they clearly still wanted him to be. So they had to replace Snoke to make that possible. But since they didnt really have plan they let RJ kill Snoke. Which became a problem....

10 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

He is the guy controlling things. That makes him the Primary.

This is just silly.