Has anyone had the players do ok in this encounter. Whenever my player fight the Siren on open water it, the player have Zero chance to win. the Siren just move around and uses rocks, othe pieces to stay far away. She eats up the player fatigue, and if they jump in the water, tjhey will die, because the deep water rules are brutal.

As the overload I like to win, but when the player have no chance, It really takes the fun out of the game

Has anyone come up with good balanced house rules. My players want to treat water as "normal" water when fighting her, but then I think the balance will swing too far in the players favor..

I know later in a campaign, when players will have more skills and ablities, it wont be as bad, but early on, its not possible to win IMO.

I have not played Sea of Blood yet, so my advice might be futile. However, it could be that the idea is that Lieutenants are invincible during the early part of the game, like the Nazgûls at the beginning of the Lord of the Rings, so the heroes have to let some Lieutenants wreck havoc for a while until they get stronger - until they are strong enough to have a chance.

I am supposing that because it is exactly what happened in our RtL campaign: Alric teleported straight away on Tamalir, and with his 5 armor and regeneration 5 against our shop weapons, we had no chance and thought the game was over. But we continued playing nevertheless, went into dungeons, found weapons, upgraded, and finally as he was putting the last siege token on Tamalir, we fought him and won.

So I am not sure the heroes should give up just because they have no chance at all during the first fight. Would it still be as unbalanced if the heroes had a couple of the right upgrades (like Shark Tattoo or other sea-related upgrades)? Maybe not.

Te best trick is getting her to stand still for a while but you need a range attack hero. As long as she's within range once, a succesful attack, using Falcon's Claw, the copper treaure that comes in Altar of Despair can put a web token on her.

It seems strange but Webbed figures can't move, even in the water apparently. Multiple web tokens should in theory keep the siren in place long enough to get ker-splatted.

I would like to houserule the Lieutenant that they can't swim past the back of the heroes ship. But i think it will shift the balance toward the heroes. The Heroes could stop 1 space away from the south edge of the map. And trap the Lieutenant in the corner since he can't swim past revenge. It either have to fight to death or flee.

As for the guard order issue using web weapon and cannon to web siren and knockback. We have played several encounter fight with siren. She could just send her skeleton toward your hero to break your guard order. Then she will just burn her threat token and swim past revenge.

I have a encounter fight with Lieutenant Sweerheart in mid silver. With ironskin and unstoppable, it is impossible to web and knockback him. But there is still chance to win against sweetheart in a decent encounter map.

During my campaign the Siren was a boring lieutenant for both the players and the overlord so the overlord kept her away from the heroes after one failed siege.

The way the heroes beat her and lifted the siege was the map drawn was the one where the sharks are controlled by the heroes. Even if she kills the sharks they just come back later.

it had to be intended for the Siren to be so powerful in the early game... this is really no problem ( well a bit of a problem in the Leviathan plot), but the heroes need to flee the lieutenant encounters early on in the campaign and that is it... ( well ..if they draw the location where the heroes command the sharks the Siren needs to flee) ... should the heroes be able to beat the siren (or other lieutenants) from start... wouldnt that change the whole campaign perspective? That would make no sense for me... anyhow its only a matter of time, that the heroes get strong enough to beat any lieutenant, if played and skilled properly... why does every one want the lieutenants weak and beatable from start, that is what i do not get!!?

svarun said:

I dont want the lieutenants too weak. However I dont want any fight that is not winnable by either side. It just takes the fun out of the game.

In my limited edition with SOB it seems the Siren is nigh invincible early in the campaign. Once the heroes get a melee hero with Shark Tattoo and the shop Hammer, and a few Hawkeye Cannons I think things will probably shift quickly though. Especially since one of my heroes has Precision and could shoot through the rocks the Siren might try to hide behind. I think its no coincidence that 3 of the 4 cannons have Knockback, facing the Siren without adequate cannons is very rough. A melee hero with Shark tattoo and a knockback weapon also seems to be imperative. Certain locations really favor the Siren or the Heroes to, so it can have a lot to do with luck of the draw.

... so you are saying that it is not winnable for both sides?... that is nonsense

Anyhow the campaign is winnable for both sides, maybe sometimes the particular battle is not... but that only contributes to the overall tactics of the game...