Fanning and Stub Revolvers

By Varnias Tybalt, in Dark Heresy House Rules

I've been thinking about stub revolvers, and I find it strange that you could only fire single shots with them. Of course it doesn't explicitly state if stub revolvers have a single action or double action firing mechanism, but frankly I don't think it should matter, since people did master the art of "fanning" a revolver back in the days, even if it was a single action revolver.

With this in mind i think there should be a viable method of firing a stub revolver on semi-auto. The question is, how should it be done?

Should it be possible through a talent (like a "Fanning"-talent) or perhaps through a weapon upgrade like an "external cocking mechanism" (since we can't really assume that all models of stub revolvers throughout the galaxy have such a thing in their standard configuration).

Thoughts?

An interesting idea, that i think would be best represented by a talent. It would be a excellent talent for a metallican gunslinger who likes to shoot 'old style' with his trusted gun fane made revolver.

I would use the following approach:

Fanning

Type : Full Action
By holding the trigger of his revolver and and rapidly pulling back the hammer the character can fire a greater number of rounds.
To do so the character must use a revolver and cannot wield an off hand weapon.

System:
While a revolver type stub weapon normally has a RoF of S/-/- with this manouvre the RoF changes to -/3/- but the weapon also becomes inaccurate and becomes unreliable (or loses Reliable if Reliable).
For every 2 DoS the character scores an additional hit.

There doesn't seem to be much of a use for this talent other than flavor. Not to be working the system, but the cost/benefit dose not add up.
Maybe if it was a Half Action instead of Full? With an Agility 40 requirement.

ItsUncertainWho said:

There doesn't seem to be much of a use for this talent other than flavor. Not to be working the system, but the cost/benefit dose not add up.
Maybe if it was a Half Action instead of Full? With an Agility 40 requirement.

That sounds reasonable to me. Because if it was a half action, it would pretty much be the only way to fire a semi-auto burst as a half action instead of the standard full action, plus it would let you spend the first half action in a round to actually draw the weapon (old west style). Of course a gunslinger worth his salt should already have the Quick Draw talent anyway. lengua.gif

Still, it would be quite the benefit to actually be able to squeeze out a semi-auto attack as a half action, but in my opinion it wouldn't be unbalanced considering the penalties incurred of shooting with a weapon in this manner (have to use both hands, so no benefit from using two-weapon wielder, unreliable to fire, probably harder to hit and im also thinking a range penalty should be appropriate). Then there's also the factor of having to buy the talent before being able to do it.

This way it would have both benefits and drawbacks.

With the Changes we discussed:

Fanning

Type: Half Action

By holding the trigger of his revolver and and rapidly pulling back the hammer the character can fire a greater number of rounds.
To do so the character must use a revolver and cannot wield an off hand weapon.

System:
While a revolver type stub weapon normally has a RoF of S/-/- with this manouvre the RoF changes to -/3/- but the weapon also becomes inaccurate and becomes unreliable (or loses Reliable if Reliable). Also reduce the weapons range by ½ while performing the Fanning action.
For every 2 DoS the character scores an additional hit.

Though i like the way the mechanic of 'fanning' works, i think it should be a talent, not an action anyone can try, say costing 200xp. The reasoning i use for this is that most people who use guns in dark heresy will use auto weapons and las weapons, and would be unaware that a revolver style pistol could be used for that trick. I imagine that most people who use guns ( so nearly everyone in the 40k universe happy.gif ) are taught to shoot and reload their weapon, and possible basic maintainace of the weapon, and thats it. Neat tricks like fanning a revolver would probably never occur to most, assuming the revolver is a single action and capable of being used in such a way.

You know, you con do similar with most pump-action shotguns. Hold the trigger down and pump away. Hard as hell to control, and hurts like hell even when braced properly and you're wearing a shoulder pad. Bad for the mechanism, too.

-=Brother Praetus=-

I actually wrote it not as a talent but as a general combat action, but the Talent is fine, like the addition of half range...

Santiago said:

I actually wrote it not as a talent but as a general combat action, but the Talent is fine, like the addition of half range...

Another thing in your defense, some talents do provide you with special combat actions according to the RAW. For instance, "Multiple Attacks" are described as a combat action, but you can't use it if you don't have the Swift Attack and/or Lightning Attack talents. happy.gif

I took the idea as a Talent due to the very specialized nature and self training it would involve to be able to do the action effectively.

I would allow a Metallican Gunslinger to get this talent for 100 xp and as an elite advance for others at 200 xp.

I outlawed the Gunslinger in my games...I hate that class, like the idea but the fracked up the class.....

With the amount of talents you can buy at rank 1 you totally outgun any other class.
Okay, you can't use long arms, most pistols do more damage than long arms anyway, range problem, most DH combat will be short range.

To put it in plain words:
Being able to buy Two Weapon Wielder (Ballistic), Mighty Shot, Gunslinger, Pistol Training (Bolt) and the 2 targeting talents is insane since most characters don't get them rank 4 and beyond.
You can technically have a "finished" character within 1.500xp

So...no...I won't allow it...

Santiago said:

I outlawed the Gunslinger in my games...I hate that class, like the idea but the fracked up the class.....

With the amount of talents you can buy at rank 1 you totally outgun any other class.
Okay, you can't use long arms, most pistols do more damage than long arms anyway, range problem, most DH combat will be short range.

To put it in plain words:
Being able to buy Two Weapon Wielder (Ballistic), Mighty Shot, Gunslinger, Pistol Training (Bolt) and the 2 targeting talents is insane since most characters don't get them rank 4 and beyond.
You can technically have a "finished" character within 1.500xp

So...no...I won't allow it...

Wait a minute, which pistols do more damage than basic and heavy weapons? Name me one pistol that will "outgun" it's heavy weapon counterpart or I will refuse to believe you. The reason why they get the pistol training bolt so early on is because most pistols don't do a lot of damage and are quite puny in comparison to basic and heavy weapons. While handcannons can pack quite a punch, they can't fire very rapidly like some basic and heavy weapons can while doing the same (or more) damage with each shot.

The Gunslinger class is a perfectly balanced and viable one, mainly because there's only one thing they are good at, and that's pistols. Also if the GM won't allow certain elite advances then gunslingers will lose some very important skills during the first levels for both the scum and the assassin variant of the gunslinger.

When you combine certain pistols with special ammo, manstoppers being the ammo of choice for most, some can get into basic SP and bolt pistol range damage. The easiest way of ending manstopper abuse is to make them harder to find and /or in limited quantities.

The Gunslinger is front loaded. Eventually all the other classes will surpass them in flexibility while the Gunslinger remains a one trick pony in combat. Combined with the requirements of always needing to be armed and never using a basic or heavy weapon, I think they even out.

Flamer weapons are the real win button that needs more watching than a gunslinger.

ItsUncertainWho said:

The easiest way of ending manstopper abuse is to make them harder to find and /or in limited quantities.

Or simply sticking to the errata which says that MS bullets will only set the Pen to 3 (which would be an increase for some weapons, but a penalty to others).

Flamer weapons are the real win button that needs more watching than a gunslinger.

Huh?

Personally I find flamer weapons to be severely underpowered, especially since they are so easy to avoid. Not only do you get a full agility test as a free action, but you can also use a dodge reaction to get out of the way of the flames. How does that make flamers a "win button"?

I do follow the errata. Pen 3 is nothing to blink at when you combine them with a full auto weapon and their cost versus bolt rounds.

Flamers are an area effect with no attack skill involved. They are not targeted at any one person, just point and burn. A person with no BS skill, with weapon training, can effectively cut off or control large areas of the battlefield with a flamer while others sit back and pick off targets as they spend all their time dodging sheets of fire.

Also, why do you allow two agility (dodge) actions against the same non-attack?

Since flame weapons automatically grant an agility test I allow dodge to come into play at the time of the granted reaction. Seeing as how the whole area is being covered with sheets of fire I don't see how an agility test and a dodge reaction are justifiable against the same non-attack. If there is a line in the book you can point to that says you get to dodge a flamer even if you fail the agility test it grants I would love to know where it is. Taking two identical actions in one round against one non-attack that grants a reaction just doesn't seem correct to me unless you have the Talent that allows an extra dodge, and even then it's a little questionable.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Flamers are an area effect with no attack skill involved. They are not targeted at any one person, just point and burn. A person with no BS skill, with weapon training, can effectively cut off or control large areas of the battlefield with a flamer while others sit back and pick off targets as they spend all their time dodging sheets of fire.

Also, why do you allow two agility (dodge) actions against the same non-attack?

Since flame weapons automatically grant an agility test I allow dodge to come into play at the time of the granted reaction. Seeing as how the whole area is being covered with sheets of fire I don't see how an agility test and a dodge reaction are justifiable against the same non-attack. If there is a line in the book you can point to that says you get to dodge a flamer even if you fail the agility test it grants I would love to know where it is. Taking two identical actions in one round against one non-attack that grants a reaction just doesn't seem correct to me unless you have the Talent that allows an extra dodge, and even then it's a little questionable.

It's because the agility test comes from the "flame" quality of the weapon and as such does not count as a reaction according to the rules. You could say that it is the "penalty" of flame weapons since you don't need to roll against BS to actually hit. It's more a question of the target's successful or failing roll against his or her agility, meaning that a flame weapon is not the "insta-hit" weapon as some people seem to believe. It's just that what determines the hit is based on the target or targets agility rather than being based on the firer's BS.

So the agility roll against a flame shot is granted by the "flame" quality and doesn't count as a reaction.

If you rule it different, then that's a house rule and not RAW.

Just so you know.

getting back to the fanning concept. i like it. i will adopt it in my campaign. good stuff.

i like the gunslinger. its a flavour thing. and i would say that the ability to use only pistols is a VERY limiting factor, esp. with my houserules adaptations. they're fine for RAW. they may come front heavy to start out but its necessary to appropriately define the particular speciality of the career.

as per flamers. I will concur with Varnias on this def. not too powerful. very limited range - having only 1 range increment. they jam on a natural dmg roll of 9. slow relaod times are the norm nt the exception. very low usage...the average being 3 shots excluding the heavy flamer. ..flamers have alot going against them as opposed to positives.

To boil my issue down to the basics with flame weapons:

Is it justifiable to give a dodge reaction against something that does not target an individual, if what they are trying to dodge has already granted them a chance to not get caught in it? If so, why cripple a flamer even more when they already have so much going against them?

Just so you know.

Flamers can be targetted at ppl. the initial Agility test is used to dodge the blast of fire coming at u in ur general area. u take damage from this. the 2nd Agility test is used for the purposes of catching fire. did the Acolyte stop and roll well enough or did he just writhe and scream? with this there is a further reduction of wounds 1d10 +1 level of fatigue each round until the fire is extingusihed. there will actually be an Agility test every round until you have actually passed it simulating the fire being extinguished.

this sounds reasonable as a game mechanic to simulate the effects of a flamer. it is up to the person or others around him to help beat the flames away. hence the agility tests and WP tests.

ItsUncertainWho said:

To boil my issue down to the basics with flame weapons:

Is it justifiable to give a dodge reaction against something that does not target an individual, if what they are trying to dodge has already granted them a chance to not get caught in it? If so, why cripple a flamer even more when they already have so much going against them?

Well, the RAW states that you dodge against "an attack", it doesn't specify the exact nature of that attack, therefore a dodge should be justifiable against flamers too.

Also, you could say that handgrenades don't "target an individual" either, but you can dodge against those (granted you need a particular DoS to get out of the grenade's full blast radius). So if you can dodge the blasts of grenades, and grenades being area of effect weapons then you should also be able to dodge flamers too.

The thing about flamers is that if you removed the ability to dodge against them they would instantly be too powerful. Because then you'd have an "insta-hit" weapon that doesn't even need a successful BS roll, and with certain talents you can even penalize the flame quality induced agility roll to escape the flames.

Now in general I consider it a bit silly to be able to dodge firearms at all, but since these rules are abstractions and they don't really symbolize that you are "dodging bullets, matrix-style" then you have to let a character do this against all weapons.

While I agree that something needs to be done about the flamer, which have so many things going against it, removing the opportunity to dodge is not the answer since it would suddenly make the flamer extremely overpowered.

MY interpretation brings flamers and the hatred and fear felt toward those who use them in combat to the front as they become dangerous to the level of an overwatch area covered by a heavy stubber.

All ranged weapons including grenades require a BS test to hit. This to me is what initiates the targets reaction so they can choose to dodge.

The flamer is indeed a powerful weapon while at short range. This is how it goes: Be in the effect of a flame -> check agi or -> take damage -> check agi or -> catch fire (see rulebook p 210). We have a houserule of ours, probably adapted from the swedish rpg Mutant, that says you need to be able to get out of the burning area with a halfmove to even be allowed to try to avoid the fire. So using a flamer in a corridor is pure nastyness. Using it at a good range for lasguns is however pretty worthless.

Depending on how you interpret the rules flamers are very prone to jamming, since every 9 rolled on a damage die means a jam. So a regular basic flamer hitting 5 people would have a 40% chance of jamming. We have houseruled this to be only on the first damage die rolled for an attack, it just makes more sense that way. A Heavy flamer still have 19% chance of a jam per shot. I think that's the worst in the game. We also allow people to use any weapon of the sort Pistol(flame) as a pistol in melee and only hit their opponent, like they worked in 2nd edition 40k.

Please excuse me for going back to topic: lengua.gif

I am not an old west fanatic, so I have one question regarding the "fanning". While I know how it "mechanically" works (basically), what makes the "reliability" drop? Is there a greater chance the the drum of the revolver won´t spin? Or that the the hammer will not "ignite" the bullet do to lack of "punch" from the "quick fanning"?

I would like to introduce the rules to one of my pc (who wears a revolver), but would like to be able to explain "what´s behind the mechanic".

Thank you!

Gregorius21778 said:

Please excuse me for going back to topic: lengua.gif

I am not an old west fanatic, so I have one question regarding the "fanning". While I know how it "mechanically" works (basically), what makes the "reliability" drop? Is there a greater chance the the drum of the revolver won´t spin? Or that the the hammer will not "ignite" the bullet do to lack of "punch" from the "quick fanning"?

I would like to introduce the rules to one of my pc (who wears a revolver), but would like to be able to explain "what´s behind the mechanic".

Thank you!

Fanning does put stress on the cylinder stop mechanism, and yes since you're pulling the hammer manually chances are that you might not be pulling hard enough during some shots and this might result in that they don't go off as intended.

Apart from that, revolvers aren't really meant to be used for rapid firing and in general they have more recoil after each shot than a semi automatic pistol would. Since much of the recoil in a semi-auto pistol is used to push the slide backward, ejecting the spent cartridge and chamber he next round, and is thus absorbed to a certain degree, revolvers are blown back a lot more forceful in the hand of the shooter and that means that if you "fan" the revolver too fast then most shots will inevitably go wild because the gun is pointing upwards at roughly a 45 degree angle.

So due to a combinaion of all these factors, accurate range and reliability would be limited.

Hope it was informative enough. happy.gif