Toughness Bonus and Wounds

By mcneils5, in Rogue Trader Rules Questions

ok, as a characters starting wounds are now equal to 2 x Toughness Bonus + a variable ammount does it seem reasonable to people that if your TB increases or decreases that your wounds should adjust accordingly?

No since it only effects your starting wounds and only uses your starting Toughness bonus. I have even being applying this before any negatives or positives from your Origin path as I have had the player apply each choice before moving onto the next. The way to put up wounds after character creation is to buy sound consitution.

Kaihlik

I say yes because I have no problem with a character picking up a few additional Wounds - the game is plenty deadly.

Kaihlik said:

No since it only effects your starting wounds and only uses your starting Toughness bonus. I have even being applying this before any negatives or positives from your Origin path as I have had the player apply each choice before moving onto the next. The way to put up wounds after character creation is to buy sound consitution.

Kaihlik

That is the correct way to do it- its STARTING wounds so its purely how tough the character was before any adventures on the origin path. No, you should not allow more wounds for toughness increases it hurts characters without toughness as a cheap advance. A character with pretty basic stats will still have 11/12 wounds on ok rolls.

Even if you're a die hard believer against adjusting wounds for Toughness advances during play, the rules still fully support adjusting your Toughness for the Origin Path before determining your Starting Wounds. This is because the Origin Path specifically allows for selection from top-to-bottom (starting with Home World) or bottom-to-top (ending with Home World). If the latter is selected, then the arguments used by others in this thread would support Origin Path results modifying your Starting Wounds.

As I said before, I'm all for any permanent Toughess modification - positive or negative - adjusting Wounds. It may not be to everyone's tastes, but it generally favors the players (they usually have an increasing Toughness) and I think it makes sense within the setting that an increase/decrease in Toughness is joined by an increase/decrease in Wounds.

While you can choose your path bottom to top you still make the character from the start and working through the book. The reason I ruled that it was before other origin paths is because alot of them decrease your toughness and as far as I can see only tainted (insane) and pride increases it (and even then only if you pick that over the heirloom item) so there is a good chance of loosing wounds but not nearly as high a chance of gaining them so I didn't want to disadvantage my players further.

Kaihlik

I believe, and I could be wrong since this is off the top of my head, that the Death World home world origin gives +5% to Toughness.

alexkilcoyne said:

That is the correct way to do it- its STARTING wounds so its purely how tough the character was before any adventures on the origin path.

Uh, no. "starting wounds" and "starting toughness" applies to the amount of wounds and toughness you have AFTER the Origin Path has been completed.

The reason for this is because otherwise the rules would be inconsistent. Just picture it, doing the Origin Path the normal way implies doing Home World first and establish the starting toughness there. But there is also an equally viable method of doing the origin path from bottom to top, and if you do that, then the starting wounds and toughness would be established way after any bonuses and penalties applied from other aspects of the origin path.

Meaning of course that in one of the methods there is a great chance that a character's starting wounds will be higher than the other method. This would be inconsistent. Hence: starting wounds are calculated AFTER any additional bonuses on penalties acquired to Toughness on the origin path, not before...

@ dvang - That would apply to starting wounds for my players. Basically they apply thier homeworld stuff first then their other stuff afterwards. So hive worlds (-5 Toughness) and Deathworlds (+5 Toughness) still affect your starting wounds. I do this for 2 reasons, first I have already mentioned and the second is to make it easier to do your character as you roll stats then work through the book applying things in the order they come up.

I am not sure if this is right but it is the way I have chosen to do it and the way that in my opinion is most likely to result in the players starting with more wounds.

@ Varnias Tybalt - Its not that inconistant as while you can choose the path from bottom to top there is nothing stoping you then applying it in the order it comes up in the book. You choose the path before you start applying modifiers so once the path is chosen it is irrelivant where you start.

Kaihlik

Kaihlik said:

@ Varnias Tybalt - Its not that inconistant as while you can choose the path from bottom to top there is nothing stoping you then applying it in the order it comes up in the book. You choose the path before you start applying modifiers so once the path is chosen it is irrelivant where you start.

Kaihlik

Okay, so by your reasoning it doesn't matter which part of the origin path you start from, because whichever method chosen all players are expected to complete the different stages of character creation "in order" (meaning: as they flow in the pages).

If so "starting characteristicts" would have been calculated before the origin path (since the rulebook clearly states that stage 1 in the character creation process is to generate characteristics). Hence it stands to reason that when the Home World section refer to a "starting characteristic" it refers to the ones generated in stage 1.

BUT

If we read under the "Generating characteristics" section under stage 1 there is an important mention of the origin path, I'll quote:

"Note that one or more of your Characteristics might be further modified by choices you make in Stage Two: Origin Path."

Now if the "final" starting characteristics are calculated way back in stage 1, why would it even mention potential modifiers to them occuring during the origin path? What would be the point?

I hardly believe that it is merely for "educational purposes". Clearly these latter modifications occuring during the origin path stage DO influence the final starting characteristics. Hence, wounds should be calculated AFTER the choices from the origin path have been applied but BEFORE any starting XP are spent during the career path stage.

I'd treat starting characteristics as different from starting wounds, something your not distinguishing.

@ Varnias Tybalt - Wow thats a bit agressive, I never said my way was right, I only said that was the way I was doing it and was explaining my thinking to you when you questioned it (indirectly by disagreeing with the person saying I was doing it right). I couldn't give a crap whether it was right or not, in fact I think "right" in a RPG is a very subjective term especially when it comes to character creation, where right is whatever works for your group. All I was doing was putting my way of doing it out there so that people could use it if they wanted.

On the other hand if you want me to put on my rules lawyer cap. While it may mention that characteristics may be altered in stage two it says nothing about your starting characteristics being altered. RPG books are full of clarifications for new players reading through the book for the first time so your statement that it is not for educational purposes is not only unfounded but also likely inaccuarate. It also says when you have selected your homeworld you should write down the starting skills and traits before moving on to the next stage (Second paragraph after the fluff, pg 17), heavily implying that the Origin path system is done in order or at very least that homeworld is done first. I would argue that Starting Wounds is a trait that you get from your homeworld and thus you would in fact roll wounds before any of the other Origin path options.

Kaihlik

i can't remember where i read this, but i remember reading that it says that you may work start at the careers or at the homeworlds, and work to the other side. This is directed at everything you said after "...put on my rules lawyer cap." if the book doesn't say that, than ignore this completely.

It says you can pick your path starting wherever you want but after you have picked the path it is irrelivant where you started as you would then work through it in the proper order. You dont apply the bonus's as you pick the options, you apply everything after you have picked your Origin path.

Kaihlik

My players and I hashed it out for DH... Raise TB, raise wounds. Works for us.

I'd say "no." Keep in mind that you already reduce all damage taken by an amount equal to your Toughness Bonus granting additional wounds on top of this perk for an increase in TB would be absurd.

"Starting Wounds" is just that: the amount you start with. If you need more wounds you can purchase Sound Constitution.

cbpye said:

I'd say "no." Keep in mind that you already reduce all damage taken by an amount equal to your Toughness Bonus granting additional wounds on top of this perk for an increase in TB would be absurd.

Absurd? I don't think so, and neither do others in this thread. In fact, to some of us, not adjusting Wounds for permanent modifications to Toughness seems absurd.

I agree, I don't see why after Character Creation is over you suddenly don't actually get tougher/weaker if your Toughness Characteristic changes. Our group figured Sound Constitution is there to buff you up because you'll only ever get +2 Wounds if you max out your Characteristic Advance.

The question is really if you think it'll be a problem for your players if tough characters gain this retroactively. Personally I think it makes perfect sense to increase wounds along with a toughness advance, but you may have some gripy players who'll rules-lawyer and carry on, generally disrupting play. If you don't like to run your games with an iron fist don't take the risk, but if you don't mind putting down the occasional recidivist then go right ahead.

In a nutshell: There's plenty of presedent for increasing associated stats retroactively in other systems and I feel this makes sense here.

Acolyte-Plath said:

The question is really if you think it'll be a problem for your players if tough characters gain this retroactively. Personally I think it makes perfect sense to increase wounds along with a toughness advance, but you may have some gripy players who'll rules-lawyer and carry on, generally disrupting play. If you don't like to run your games with an iron fist don't take the risk, but if you don't mind putting down the occasional recidivist then go right ahead.

In a nutshell: There's plenty of presedent for increasing associated stats retroactively in other systems and I feel this makes sense here.

You're likely to get rules-lawyer gripe on either end of the decision, so I wouldn't say that they'll favor one over the other as a whole.

HappyDaze said:

Acolyte-Plath said:

The question is really if you think it'll be a problem for your players if tough characters gain this retroactively. Personally I think it makes perfect sense to increase wounds along with a toughness advance, but you may have some gripy players who'll rules-lawyer and carry on, generally disrupting play. If you don't like to run your games with an iron fist don't take the risk, but if you don't mind putting down the occasional recidivist then go right ahead.

In a nutshell: There's plenty of presedent for increasing associated stats retroactively in other systems and I feel this makes sense here.

You're likely to get rules-lawyer gripe on either end of the decision, so I wouldn't say that they'll favor one over the other as a whole.

Fair point. I generally don't stand for it myself, but there are those who don't like to put their foot down.