Article: Ruminations & Ramblings - Jin & Rashotep

By VikramS, in UFS General Discussion

Our findings are the same on both characters, and LOL at people who think Fire's Jin's best symbol. Good luck utilizing character-specific support with Fire.

Yes Jin can be "boring", but sometimes boring is what it takes to win. "Boring" is what distracted me from acknowleding Siegfried's existence, and I'm glad I went to him. Same can generally be said for Astaroth as well.

Back on topic, while Jin is quite plain, you're obviously seeing just how stupidly brutal he is, and in my opinion, he's better than Astrid since he requires less set-up, I feel.

I agree with Jin, I think Chaos is his best symbol, with fire being his worst. Maybe death as best, I just happen to prefer Chaos. He's what I almost built for when I was going to make it down to SAS, but I didn't have the cards for him anyway :( .

Very nice article. I find myself agreeing with your statements on Jin. I have spent a few weeks working through 4-5 different forms of Jin, and have gathered the following observations.

Jin:

I too have played him off of all symbols, seeing as how I really liked his style from the beginning. I have found a few things, problems and benefits both, with him off of each symbol.

Fire: Probably the first symbol people look at with this aggro powerhouse. With good reason, of course, as Fire offers some of the blanket aggro cards that would seem to benefit Jin the most. Unfortunately, there in lies a bit of a hang up in building a Fire Jin; trying to do too much. Do you run him a Fire Stun deck, with damage bumps to the attacks? Do you run him Throw heavy, with powerful aggro damage bumps? Do you run him Nightmare-Destro tech? Astrid Weapon tech? Zi Mei Multiple tech? All the options can bog down a meta discussion, seeing as how Jin offers much to any of these options. I have found that Nightmare-Destro tech can offer really powerful attacks, but can (very) easily over extend itself and lose the next turn. Astrid Weapon tech also offers a lot of nice options, draw power the most important, but why not just play Astrid? So far, my favorite build off Fire has been a mostly Off-zone attack build(Leg Slash, First Rite, Midnight Launcher, Cleave) with some Ragnar tech for cheap damage (Unstoppable Warrior is very scary T2 with 3-4 other foundations). I have yet, for card pool reasons, been able to try out any form of 1-2-3rd Rite build, but I feel that a build in that vein would be a bit one trick-ish. Fire has very good potential, but I do not find Jin doing anything that any of the other Fire characters could do. Fire likes to go off early game, meaning Jin-stacking will be 1 at best, and that limits his utility greatly. Slow Fire is possible (Shield, Breaker blocks, etc), but I don't find that any fun. To sum it up, Fire makes Jin a Swiss Army knife in a 100-piece tool kit; nice to have, but rarely the best tool for the job.

Death: Probably the symbol with the most potential, looking at the new set, assuming Yoshi decides to get a skull. Currently, the card options break down into two types: Nightmare/Ragnar Destro/Hp burn, or Tira/Nina gimmiks. Both styles will be using some of the insanely useful Kazuya tech. Having tried both, the Nina tech options mixed with some of Rash's throws can be very hot (Keep them Down + Flooded Nile -> Knightbreaker setup), and can, if not aiding in the kill, at least make your opponent hate their hand. If you are not going for a Knightbreaker combo, Nina stuff can still be very powerful. Though War Between Sisters is not a great help, as Death is curiously devoid of pure card draw, Wipe the Floor can help to clear their hand, and Evil Mist is just fun. That said, on to Jin's primary benefactor, Kazuya's support. Having both Death and Chaos, this group nicely spans the gap between Jin's two other symbols. With very nice character based tech (Hunt is On, Merciless Fighter), as well as some momentum gen (Kazuya's Gloves, Maniacal Laughter), as well as other combo cards (Vengence, Need to Destroy), not to mention a strong attack base (Spinning Demon, Lion Slayer, DFK, Demon Slayer), Kazuya support will inevitably find its way into a Jin deck, even if it is just Hunt is On to tutor the character blocks. The combos here are fairly obvious, and have been touched on before. In the end, Kazuya and Jin are linked by their symbols and affinity to character cards. And finally, we have the other side of the coin, where Death meets Fire. Nightmare offers some of the most powerful attacks for Jin to take advantage of (Leg Slash T1, yes sir), as well as some of the more powerful Destro-Tech for damage, in the form of All Life is Prey. Ragnar can accent this with his axe, as well as Unstoppable Warrior, though they both commit you to attacking for the turn (ie no chase character for turn). This style of Death most closely resembles Fire, but has access to Kazuya base, which can be very useful. Unfortunately, it lacks the draw power of Fire for building, and there is only so much Cursed Blood can do. Death does for Jin what Vanilla Ice Cream does for Apple Pie; offers new tastes to a fairly standard power base.

Chaos: Ah, yes. The red-headed step child, whose dye-job and breast implants have done wonders for their self confidence. Chaos was a bit slow out the gates for the meta-gripe, but SAS showed at least the possibility it has. With Jin, pull from his best buddy first, then flavor to taste. Kazuya support all the way, from Merciless Fighter to Laughter to Bloodline and back. Hell, throw in Kazzy himself just for the added characters. Then you can branch out to some of the more powerful cards. Check hacks might seem a bit over the top at this point, but they have their place. For the Money and Communing offer added pressure for your opponent to build instead of attacking, opening the door for you instead of you having to kick it down. Many different options when it comes to attack base as well. Zi Mei offers stuns, Cervantes offers check hacks, Zhou offers...RFG? Anyway, Kazzy also has some good attacks, which will see play. I personally like the First Rite->Spinning Demon + 1->Shadow Flare combo with Merciless rolling the damage, but there are definite options. I have wanted to try the DiHW deck, rolling damage and keeping the pressure down at the same time. Theemin Menkar -> First Rite -> Shadow Flare -> Destruction. Needless to say, Chaos is only going up currently, and will be a fairly good contender until we see some character hate (looking at you, Lone Wolf). To continue ending these paragraphs with a strange analogy, Chaos is to Jin what Nitrous Oxide is to a Rave; it makes a fairly crazy thing that much crazier, with possible deadly results.

And that is the cut and dry version of my more recent explorations with Jin. I could probably include another paragraph about Chaos/Death mix, but Apple Pie and Nitrous Oxide sound too dangerous together.

Hope my points made sense.

-Tinman

I dislike Destruction in His Wake. In a 6HS character, it's nearly impossible to use. More often than not, it's a nice +3 damage.

I've seen it used ONCE for the Combo. In a themed Kazuya, which has enough attacks of the aforementioned zones for DiHW to work.

guitalex2008 said:

I dislike Destruction in His Wake. In a 6HS character, it's nearly impossible to use. More often than not, it's a nice +3 damage.

I've seen it used ONCE for the Combo. In a themed Kazuya, which has enough attacks of the aforementioned zones for DiHW to work.

I know Zhao Daiyu profits from it being her exact Twilight Embrace combo, but...

Also, Void Rashotep with One-Handed Crocodile Grasp into Twist with Body of Souls to get them back is sexy.

Homme Chapeau said:

guitalex2008 said:

I dislike Destruction in His Wake. In a 6HS character, it's nearly impossible to use. More often than not, it's a nice +3 damage.

I've seen it used ONCE for the Combo. In a themed Kazuya, which has enough attacks of the aforementioned zones for DiHW to work.

I know Zhao Daiyu profits from it being her exact Twilight Embrace combo, but...

Also, Void Rashotep with One-Handed Crocodile Grasp into Twist with Body of Souls to get them back is sexy.

God i loved that card in zhao i managed to get it off quite a few times but then died on my next turn by my opponent hard checking attacks and being a character with damage pump out the ass

Da_ghetto_gamer said:

Homme Chapeau said:

guitalex2008 said:

I dislike Destruction in His Wake. In a 6HS character, it's nearly impossible to use. More often than not, it's a nice +3 damage.

I've seen it used ONCE for the Combo. In a themed Kazuya, which has enough attacks of the aforementioned zones for DiHW to work.

I know Zhao Daiyu profits from it being her exact Twilight Embrace combo, but...

Also, Void Rashotep with One-Handed Crocodile Grasp into Twist with Body of Souls to get them back is sexy.

God i loved that card in zhao i managed to get it off quite a few times but then died on my next turn by my opponent hard checking attacks and being a character with damage pump out the ass

I retract my statement. Earth/Void Rashotep. Otherwise Twist cannot be played.

But honestly with Zhao I'm trying to do other stuffs.

Homme Chapeau said:

Also, Void Rashotep with One-Handed Crocodile Grasp into Twist with Body of Souls to get them back is sexy.

Croc-Twist + Body is nice...cept it has nothing to do with Destruction in His Wake, which only has Death with Rashotep =/

I really love Cobra Twist, but it just seems so anti-climatic in a format dominated by Financial Trouble/Relentless, King F/Jaguar Mask, Body of Souls, and Spinning Demon.

guitalex2008 said:

I dislike Destruction in His Wake. In a 6HS character, it's nearly impossible to use. More often than not, it's a nice +3 damage.

I've seen it used ONCE for the Combo. In a themed Kazuya, which has enough attacks of the aforementioned zones for DiHW to work.

I hit with it 5 times in 4 games, last Wednesday night...but yeah, it's hard to do with a 6-hander.

MarcoPulleaux said:

I really love Cobra Twist, but it just seems so anti-climatic in a format dominated by Financial Trouble/Relentless, King F/Jaguar Mask, Body of Souls, and Spinning Demon.

Dominated? No. Heavily present cards? Yes.

Trouble/Relentless have to be on the table for them to be marginally useful. Obviously if you see them on the field you're already trying to negate all dat draw. Anything that can prevent your opponent from drawing more should be welcomed. Also, if you're playing the Twist and you're not a Martial Arts Champion... What are you doing?

Body of Souls is solved if you are King, for you discard their momentum with great ability.

Also, Spinning Demon can be dealt with other means.

The biggest problem with Cobra Twist and MAC is that they share no symbols. In King and even 'tep this isn't much of a problem, but it's still something to consider. Cobra Twist having Water was a huge mistake.

MarcoPulleaux said:

The biggest problem with Cobra Twist and MAC is that they share no symbols. In King and even 'tep this isn't much of a problem, but it's still something to consider. Cobra Twist having Water was a huge mistake.

Cobra Clutch having Life was pretty much wat-tastic as well.

Cobra Clutch into Hilt Impact is a sweet Life trick =D

Anyone else running Jin and Rasho out there, what have been your experiences with them? Just curious, since I've switched my styles on both considerably since posting the article, although the basic ideas are the same. Appreciate the feedback guys, thanks.

VikramS said:

Anyone else running Jin and Rasho out there, what have been your experiences with them? Just curious, since I've switched my styles on both considerably since posting the article, although the basic ideas are the same. Appreciate the feedback guys, thanks.

Running against Jin and Rashotep, I have to say that Jin enjoys the Chaos character support entirely too much, and that a standard Fire build with Jin seems extremely underwhelming, even with his abilities.

Rashotep, I find to not be as good as his ability says he is. Not only is he prime rib to Pommel Smash, but offensively, his ability neuters his defense too much. Plus, if you play your Es intelligently, his ability becomes tame. Even with all of the Earth defense cards, I'd consider King, Siegfried, Bryan Fury and possibly other characters over Rashotep.

Tried rashotep a short while.. he was dead booring to play, Not that good (altough blanking stuff pisses ppl off). I thought he would be a great control char, but it felt that the best he did was slowing the game down for the opponent.

I play Rashotep regularly, and I have to say that he really is hit and miss. Blanking stuff is really cool and all, but against really offensive characters I find he has a lot of problems. There are some games where I have lost to Ragnar on turn two!!! It usually takes about 3 turns before everything is set up where I can start to attack and do some real damage. There are some games where if I have the right cards in play, things go really well for me. However the opposite is also true. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the biggest problem is consistancy, or the lack there of.

See, I originally had the same problem with Rashotep as you three, but I made the build more aggressive with Enemies Now Friends and Hungry For Battle among other pumps and now it can hit hard, and very fast. I start swinging turn two now, maybe only one or two attacks but they are all throws and hit for about 8-9 damage total even if both are blocked. You can't play him OTK, you have to deal damage little by little and be patient. It's difficult to play with him, for sure, because of the fact that he usually needs to be ready all the time and if you make one mistake, it can easily and instantly cost you the game.

In my earlier builds I was finding it really easy to gum up an opponent's board and effectively shut them down for a few turns while I built, but then actually killing people became difficult if not impossible and took far too long. However now between Brooding, Hungry, Bracers, ENF, Man Behind The Mask, Stand-Off Defensively, along with Undisputed and Ka T. the Cobra combo and King Of The Ring (also a damage pump) make things much easier for lockdown.

VikramS said:

See, I originally had the same problem with Rashotep as you three, but I made the build more aggressive with Enemies Now Friends and Hungry For Battle among other pumps and now it can hit hard, and very fast. I start swinging turn two now, maybe only one or two attacks but they are all throws and hit for about 8-9 damage total even if both are blocked. You can't play him OTK, you have to deal damage little by little and be patient. It's difficult to play with him, for sure, because of the fact that he usually needs to be ready all the time and if you make one mistake, it can easily and instantly cost you the game.

In my earlier builds I was finding it really easy to gum up an opponent's board and effectively shut them down for a few turns while I built, but then actually killing people became difficult if not impossible and took far too long. However now between Brooding, Hungry, Bracers, ENF, Man Behind The Mask, Stand-Off Defensively, along with Undisputed and Ka T. the Cobra combo and King Of The Ring (also a damage pump) make things much easier for lockdown.

Honestly if Rashotep is slow, then everyone in Earth is slow, which hasn't been my experience, and honestly I was talking the character, alone.