Groxwhip has a range of 3m. How does that work?

By HappyDaze, in Rogue Trader Rules Questions

How is the Groxwhip used? As a melee weapon, it is noted as being used in close combat, but since it has a range and yet is not a thrown weapon, it causes a number of questions to crop up.

Do you use WS or BS to attack with a Groxwhip at range?

Can a Groxwhip still be used in close combat?

Is a Groxwhip treated as a ranged weapon or a melee weapon for Talent purposes?

Do Range Modifiers apply when attacking with a Groxwhip outside of close combat?

Can a Groxwhip really strike out to 12m (Extreme Range)?

HappyDaze said:

Do you use WS or BS to attack with a Groxwhip at range?

Weapon Skill

HappyDaze said:

Can a Groxwhip still be used in close combat?

Yes.

HappyDaze said:

Is a Groxwhip treated as a ranged weapon or a melee weapon for Talent purposes?

It is a melee weapon.

HappyDaze said:

Do Range Modifiers apply when attacking with a Groxwhip outside of close combat?

Range modifiers do not apply to attacks made with the Groxwhip.

HappyDaze said:

Can a Groxwhip really strike out to 12m (Extreme Range)?

No, a groxwhip does not follow the standard rules for ranged weapons. It is a melee weapon that is capable of striking beyond the immediate reach of the wielder. The 3 meter range is more akin to "reach" from D&D . However, given the vagueness of what is presented, my answers are all conjecture based off of my personal interpretation and what; from my own perspective, I would see as common sense concerning the item. However, if the above answers do not satisfy, interpret as you see fit.

-=Brother Praetus=-

What you've said seems pretty reasonable. It just stikes me as odd that they used the Range slot rather than just a "Reach" notation along with Flexible, Primitive, and Tearing.

On a related note - if a pistol is used to make attacks in close combat, is it used with WS or BS?

Can a pistol be used to parry? If it can be used to parry, and the answer to the above was "BS" would it now se WS to parry? While this might seem odd, many WH40K pistols are massive chunks of metal that could conceivably block a knife or a sword, so...

HappyDaze said:

What you've said seems pretty reasonable. It just stikes me as odd that they used the Range slot rather than just a "Reach" notation along with Flexible, Primitive, and Tearing.

On a related note - if a pistol is used to make attacks in close combat, is it used with WS or BS?

Can a pistol be used to parry? If it can be used to parry, and the answer to the above was "BS" would it now se WS to parry? While this might seem odd, many WH40K pistols are massive chunks of metal that could conceivably block a knife or a sword, so...

Here's where I found the answers this time.

DH Errata 3.0 ; page 11 , appendix 1 (combat talents)

Pistols used in melee combat still count ranged weapons, and cannot benefit from any talents that are specifically associated with melee weapons or melee attacks.

A pistol wielded in melee does not gain the +30 for point-blank. Point-blank, while stated as being clower than 3 meters, does not apply to enemies with whom you are engaged in melee with.

As to whether you can parry with a pistol, personally, I say yes as some pistols are specifically stated to be of a "robust design" that allows them to be used as a club in close-quarters. Parrying is always a test of ones Weapon Skill .

Addendum: Yes, I know we're in the RT forum, but still, logical is logical. happy.gif

-=Brother Praetus=-

To answer your first question, however, I believe pistols in close combat use your Ballistic Skill still.

Brother Praetus said:

HappyDaze said:

Do you use WS or BS to attack with a Groxwhip at range?

Weapon Skill

HappyDaze said:

Can a Groxwhip still be used in close combat?

Yes.

HappyDaze said:

Is a Groxwhip treated as a ranged weapon or a melee weapon for Talent purposes?

It is a melee weapon.

HappyDaze said:

Do Range Modifiers apply when attacking with a Groxwhip outside of close combat?

Range modifiers do not apply to attacks made with the Groxwhip.

HappyDaze said:

Can a Groxwhip really strike out to 12m (Extreme Range)?

No, a groxwhip does not follow the standard rules for ranged weapons. It is a melee weapon that is capable of striking beyond the immediate reach of the wielder...

-=Brother Praetus=-

This is how I would handle it as well. The Inquisitor's Handbook for DH contains a Neural Whip (page 162) which also has a range of 3m. There it is explained that "a neural whip has a longer range than most melee weapons and is able to strike foes up to 3 metres away. " Since the Groxwhip also is a whip, I take it for granted that it works the same way.

Some more houserules that have appeared when using whips and other melee weapon with "reach". For most examples, assume there is a whipuser and a knifeuser standing 3m apart and that they are engaged in melee combat.

The whipuser can do his swift attacks (or similar full round actions) but the knifeuser needs to do a move before they can attack. If the knifeuser has less than 3m for a half move, she might be in deep trouble. (remember that oots-strip featuring the halfogre with a spiked chain?)

If the knifeuser wants to leave the melee he has to risk take a hit from the whip, or use a full round "withdraw"-move to get out wihtout risk. The whipuser can just do any move action she wants.

If a person with a ranged weapon fires at one of the two combatants, there is no risk of hitting the other one.

Assume the knifeuser is dualvielding a pistol, and the whipuser wants to move away from the combat with a run action. The knifeuser is then allowed one melee attack, this can not be done with the knife because it cannot reach the 3m. It can however be done with the pistol, counting it as a regular "in melee" pistol attack.

A whip can be used with the charge action. You may end your charge at up to 3 m range and attack from there, assuming you can still obey all the prerequisites for a charge.

Pistols can be fired when engaged in melee combat, regardless of the range between combatants (please see houserule at the end for "in melee"). These shots are always assumed to be fired "in melee", so no point blank bonus etc. "Scatter" weapons will cause extra hits if the actual range is similar to or less than their point blank range. (This rule can be altered in many ways, I find this set to be consistent with the melee rules and pretty easy to handle)

I think that's all the ones I can think of right away. Whips make for tricky rules, but can give new interesting challenges in strategy etc.

Houserule for "engaged in melee combat": You are engaged in melee with an enemy from the moment that one of you have made a melee attack against the other one. So if you make a run move and end up next to an enemy, that person can still shoot you with her heavy stubber, with bonus to hit for point blank range. If you on the other hand have made a charge, even if you missed your attack, that person is locked in melee and may not shoot at you. You will be out of melee combat after a move action takes you away from all your currently engaged enemies melee range, or if all your enemies move just as far away from you. Remember that you might have to go a few extra meters if your opponent have got a whip. You will be out of melee combat when all your engaged enemies are unconcious, dead or otherwise not in the way for either you or anyone wishing to shoot at you.

Discussions and feedback on these are very welcome.