No Cost in the Armoury Chapter?

By LordofEndTimes, in Rogue Trader

I bought Rogue Trader because I want to run a campaign for my regular Dark Heresy group. Unfortunately we started a new DH campaign just before RT came out, so it's going to be some while before we can have a go at Rogue Trader. In the meantime a was thinking of using the RT book as a sourcebook for my DH campaign, since throughout the RT book it is stated that the Rogue Trader and Dark Heresy are compatible with each other- BUT there's no cost for weapons (and other stuff in there I guess)! I know this is because of the Profit Factor, but suddenly the book lacks a great deal if it were supposed to be compatible with DH. New cool weapons like the Storm Bolter or the Digi-weapons would be great for high-ranking Inquisitorial Acolytes, but in order for them to get them, they have to know what they cost- a feat nigh impossible without a cost rating for the different kinds of weaponry and implants etc. So this is for me a big problem if the two lines are going to be compatible with each other. Ship rules and Arch-militants is not going feature as much in my Dark Heresy campaigns as a Storm Bolter or wat grown muscle implants.

Have any of you thought of this? Any solution? Anyone cooked up a pricelist?

You could go the other way and assign a PF to your Inquisitor and allow his Acolytes to requisition gear from it.

Yeah i would just have the inquisitor with a profit factor and they requisition what they need, money only being used when they need to stay under the radar (and then all the cool stuff would be too noticable anyway).

I always hated how broken the money system was in dark heresy, aquisitions in rogue trader works so much better. It also removes the whole looting mindset from the players which i always felt ruins most RPGs.

I'd assume that about 90% of the cool stuff can't be bought on an acolyte's salary, pure and simple. You might be awarded it for a mission well done or get outfitted with it when things are expected to get hairy, but you won't be able to walk into a shop, slam an amount of thrones on the counter and get the item. Digi-weapons are prime examples for this.

Instituting a profit factor equivalent will probably the best solution, especially for acolytes of a high enough level that their master trusts them to not abuse the power granted by his ressources.

just one part of the game conceptor have totaly miss vs the compatibility promisse they make

i hope in errata you can found throne price for RT items (guns, cyber, armor,...) and threshold for psychic power

i understand they want to offer a new system possibility for RT but they forget to keep i mind player for DH who like ancien system

the so promise about compatibility look like a failure to me. no need of PF for acolyte they dont go to purchase 10 box of guns but just one most of the time

i hope future expension and ressource book correct the problems and put info for both system...so far is only 1 conlum more for price in throne and 1 line for threshold

Wing the price. Most items are variants of already existing ones and so a baseline is present. A Locke Pattern Bolter will probably cost a little more than a standard bolter, but it will be in the same price range. And so on and so forth. This isn't hard.

I argued ferociously during playtesting for prices to be given in the Armoury. It is one of RT's major faults in my opinion. I just made up my own prices for everything when I was compiling a complete equipment list. I'll maybe post that on Dark Reign sometime, but I'd have to make up a second version that doesn't include anything from playtest material that isn't official yet.

Savage said:

I argued ferociously during playtesting for prices to be given in the Armoury. It is one of RT's major faults in my opinion. I just made up my own prices for everything when I was compiling a complete equipment list. I'll maybe post that on Dark Reign sometime, but I'd have to make up a second version that doesn't include anything from playtest material that isn't official yet.

I, on the other hand, am extremely grateful they didn't do it. Having to fit that many zeroes on a page would take up a lot of space, not to mention that most people who can provide you with a Harlequin's Kiss won't be sellng it for mere cash.

Cynical Cat said:

Wing the price. Most items are variants of already existing ones and so a baseline is present. A Locke Pattern Bolter will probably cost a little more than a standard bolter, but it will be in the same price range. And so on and so forth. This isn't hard.

So the price of a Harlequin's Kiss should be... what? How about a Jump Pack? Or a Digital Weapon?

There are many things that don't have an existing baseline, and these are going to be the hard ones to price, especially as DH prices are not necessarily linked to availability - some common items cost more than certain rare pieces.

Overall, you're best just using one system or the other, depneding on if you want to count Thrones or not.

Cifer said:

I'd assume that about 90% of the cool stuff can't be bought on an acolyte's salary, pure and simple.

Well I don't know about you but right before we "retired" our first characters in Dark Heresy, all of them had managed to amass pretty vast fortunes (meaning: up to hundreds of thousands of thrones). Some of it came from loot (or mainly stolen credit blocks from wealthy criminals), some of it came from our characters' own enterprises (almost everyone had at least one Trade skill which they got better at as time progressed).

It's not like we looted every single knife or gun we found and simply sold it off, but after some time passing (probably several years in in-game time) they became quite wealthy.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Well I don't know about you but right before we "retired" our first characters in Dark Heresy, all of them had managed to amass pretty vast fortunes (meaning: up to hundreds of thousands of thrones). Some of it came from loot (or mainly stolen credit blocks from wealthy criminals), some of it came from our characters' own enterprises (almost everyone had at least one Trade skill which they got better at as time progressed).

It's not like we looted every single knife or gun we found and simply sold it off, but after some time passing (probably several years in in-game time) they became quite wealthy.

Holey moley! HUNDREDS of thousand of Thrones?!?!? My Tech Priest, after 3 years in game, and 8 ranks amassed a mere 6500. And that's soley by purchasing the absolute minimum required for ammo, replacement weapons, clothing, sacred machine oil refills, his mere two mechadendrites.

He was trying to save up for some Dragonscale...

HappyDaze said:

Cynical Cat said:

Wing the price. Most items are variants of already existing ones and so a baseline is present. A Locke Pattern Bolter will probably cost a little more than a standard bolter, but it will be in the same price range. And so on and so forth. This isn't hard.

So the price of a Harlequin's Kiss should be... what? How about a Jump Pack? Or a Digital Weapon?

.

Shuriken Catapults go for thousands of Thrones and Kisses are even rarer so at least 10,000 Thrones. It's not like you'll be buying them en masse at the gun shop. It'll be negotiated between buyer and seller. Digital Weapons would be thousands each, again depending on circumstances and construction (Jokaero ones would obviously go for more than human made ones). Again, an exotic item sold to in single item lots to a wealthy buyer. Jump Packs would be much cheaper. It's reproduceable, albeit rare Imperial tech. Low single digit thousands.

Aren't jump packs already in the IH ? Have they been updated in RT lime many weapons ?

nikink said:

Holey moley! HUNDREDS of thousand of Thrones?!?!? My Tech Priest, after 3 years in game, and 8 ranks amassed a mere 6500. And that's soley by purchasing the absolute minimum required for ammo, replacement weapons, clothing, sacred machine oil refills, his mere two mechadendrites.

He was trying to save up for some Dragonscale...

Well, what can I say. House of Dust and Ash certainly helped in boosting our characters fortunes and once that got going, the money almost rolled in by themselves. Clever investments is the name of the game, and insuring your Inquisitor that you intend to use the funds you've found by "less than honorable" methods to fund Inquisitorial business they are often willing to work with you and look the other way.

Of course, the Inquisition have the authority to requisition pretty much anything, but when they do that everything tend to pass through proper channels and rumours spread, making cover operations difficult. Which is why our Inquisitor could see the benefits of letting his acolytes keep large amounts of thrones they "found" during their missions and investing them properly so we could draw upon those resources instead of having stuff requisitioned and thereby keeping a low profile when needed.

Quite simply, when we found "nazi gold" somewhere our Inquisitor didn't go like: "No you can't keep that. Because it would be wrong and the game master doesn't feel like giving you such a large amount of monetary wealth."

I think some of you are missing the point. While DH and RT are 'compatable' they are not the same game, and FFG has always stated that RT is its own game, not a sourcebook or campaign setting for DH. It can work with DH because it uses most of the same rules: combat, most of character creation, and other such things. But that's where it ends. Complaining that a new game doesn't have stats or whatever for another game system is kind of silly. Either do as others have suggested and wing it using your *gasp* imagination, go online and find other people's suggestions and house rules, or wait till they put out a sourcebook that covers such things as harlequin's kiss's and starships for Dark Heresy. I hear Dark Heresy: Ascension is about high level campagns, so maybe that will have what your looking for. Probably not though.

I for one love the Profit Factor and Acquisition rules. If prices were in the book for say a stormbolter, it would completely invalidate the use of it. Why would I try and roll a 38 on my profit factor when I can just use my vast amount of Thrones to just pay the merchant 20,000 right there? That's less than pocket change to a Rogue Trader which incidentally is the name of the game, not "Rogue Traders Hanging Out With Inquisitors Because FFG Makes Both Games".

Varnias Tybalt said:

Well, what can I say. House of Dust and Ash certainly helped in boosting our characters fortunes a...

Wow... well done! Our Acolytes were lucky to escape from that hellhole alive, let alone with anything of material value. Island exploded just as we managed to get out of the damned place. :)

Rogue Trader which incidentally is the name of the game, not "Rogue Traders Hanging Out With Inquisitors Because FFG Makes Both Games".

this is no what i consider a good explanation when you take in considaration FFG say they dont put space travel an spaceships in DH books because RT is going to be oriented on it and both game are going to be fully compatible so if the publisher itself say both game are suppose to can be play togheters and because of that they are going to publish there stock with this in mind ... i dont understand why they dont do it at the end

and for ships thrones prices is obiously not the best systems but for individuals items i see no reasons to dont do it.

at the end both game are part of a trilogy of games that can be lay alone or togheter (well if they keep there promise)

The rules systems are fully compatible, which is what FFG was talking about. Most of the stuff that's in RT and not in DH is rare stuff like Xeno-tech, etc, which should be a negotiated price, given it's rarity, and updated weapons (like hellguns, plasma guns and meltas), which can effectively just be ported straight into DH.

They are two entire separate games, sharing the same system. That's all. They have done all they said they would do to make them "compatible", made it so DH characters can be placed in a RT game. Everything else is up to the GM, just like in pretty much every other RPG out there.

MILLANDSON said:

They are two entire separate games, sharing the same system. That's all. They have done all they said they would do to make them "compatible", made it so DH characters can be placed in a RT game. Everything else is up to the GM, just like in pretty much every other RPG out there.

Exactly, which is the point I was trying to make. Not everything is going to be exact, but it is compatible. If your GM can't come up with a reasonable cost for something like a stormbolter without FFG's authors leading him by the nose, then he has no business running a roleplaying game. Someone like that should stick to video games or something.

Kaiohx said:

MILLANDSON said:

They are two entire separate games, sharing the same system. That's all. They have done all they said they would do to make them "compatible", made it so DH characters can be placed in a RT game. Everything else is up to the GM, just like in pretty much every other RPG out there.

Exactly, which is the point I was trying to make. Not everything is going to be exact, but it is compatible. If your GM can't come up with a reasonable cost for something like a stormbolter without FFG's authors leading him by the nose, then he has no business running a roleplaying game. Someone like that should stick to video games or something.

Which would be why I'm agreeing with you gui%C3%B1o.gif

I am sort of torn on this one. I like the idea that buying stuff is abstracted out, I just think it might have been better to base acquisitions based off the cost of an item rather than rarity. There are already some rules in there for seeing if the item is available for purchase and time taken based on rarity. As an example a house would be a common rarity item but it would cost a lot more than many items harder to find thus it should put more of a hurt on your profit factor. This would also allow for a ballpark figure on the price of RT items in DH. It would also give more meaning to the now fairly nebulous barter skill (which you would think would be very important to a Rogue Trader).

As an example just to show what I mean.

Item cost in thrones modifier

0-10 +70 Bagetelle

11-30 +60 Cheap

31-60 +50 Inexpensive

ETC.

The numbers could be anything that floats your boat, the main point is to replace the rarity modifier on table 9-35 with one based on the cost of the item.

Both me and my players miss that the items in RT does not have a value attached to them, this is for many reasons.

1) It has no monetary real-world feeling attached to the item it its "free". If all you have to roll is an succeeded PF-roll then the value of the item is... What? Nothing bling with a free gun, welfare weapons is like soup for homeless people. It will get you full, but not that satisfied. All my players actually want to know what their maxed out modded best craftmanship bolter is worth. Sure its alot of penor-meassureing but still a vital part of the guardsmen's every day talk.

2) No monetary value makes it harder to obtain when used in DH. Since both games are compatible it is only stupid to add a system where its pretty much only compatible one way. A RT character have no worries usung the DH sourcebooks to obtain weapons. A DH character has to guess, ask the GM or steal the item in question.

3) For characters using money, and been saving up on them there is a kind of reward in knowing "I can buy this here shotcannon now" rather then just roll against PF and yes/no get it. Its a part of progression and character development to obtain your own cash and get your own stuff knowing you worked for them.

4) Using PF only ends up having poweramor decked out heroes with the best weapons there is. Always. And if you already have all of the best items... What use it for you to go adventuring? Risk of loosng them all? Pfft, send a boarding party, let them battle it out. After all. You got like 40 000 crew members, I am sure you can send at least a 1k strong boarding party down instead of your own valuable behind to do the killing for you.

5) Looting and scavange looses its charm. He had WHAT!? A plasma pistol, I dont care if its pretty much out of ammo and dented beyond repair, its mine. My own...

These are but a few of the reasons I would really like to see a detailed list in RT, and all of its supplements, a pricetag on every item - so that they actually can be adaptable backwards ti the DH rules.

And yes, we only play DH since the freebee wellfare system of PF doesnot fit our group - but we use the rules of RT (Playing the game) since they feel more updated and with more clarification on many points.

Ruskendrul said:

A RT character have no worries usung the DH sourcebooks to obtain weapons. A DH character has to guess, ask the GM or steal the item in question.

Thing is, though, while compatible, DH and RT are different games. Should there be pages and pages of content in a Rogue Trader book designed to accomodate the people using both games' books? If so, where do you make the space for it? What do you cut out in order to appease the portion of the fanbase?

With regards to Rogue Trader's profit system... are things 'free'? Or are they simply insufficiently expensive to dent the extraordinary wealth of the group?

The Imperium isn't an inherently capitalist society. Money within the context of the Imperium is one source of power, and even then only a subjective one (it only properly applies within the Imperium, and even then only within cultured parts of the Imperium subject to frequent interstellar travel, as the more isolated a world the more likely it is to be dominated by its own economy). A Rogue Trader's ability to obtain goods and services is as dependant upon his authority, status and connections as it is the treasure in his vaults.

Ruskendrul said:

1) It has no monetary real-world feeling attached to the item it its "free". If all you have to roll is an succeeded PF-roll then the value of the item is... What? Nothing bling with a free gun, welfare weapons is like soup for homeless people. It will get you full, but not that satisfied. All my players actually want to know what their maxed out modded best craftmanship bolter is worth. Sure its alot of penor-meassureing but still a vital part of the guardsmen's every day talk.

Is that so impossible to achieve without arbitrary monetary values? The rarity of an item, and its uniqueness, and its history, are all as important talking points... afterall, is it better to own an entirely unremarkable best-quality bolter worth 5,000 Thrones, or to own a one-of-a-kind, hand (and mechadendrite) wrought and custom-tooled bolter from the legendary Munitionsmith Aurelius Trinovedes, obtained as part of an elaborate series of negotiations and trade agreements? Either one is a talking point by some standard... but the latter seems far more interesting to me.

Ruskendrul said:

4) Using PF only ends up having poweramor decked out heroes with the best weapons there is. Always. And if you already have all of the best items... What use it for you to go adventuring? Risk of loosng them all? Pfft, send a boarding party, let them battle it out. After all. You got like 40 000 crew members, I am sure you can send at least a 1k strong boarding party down instead of your own valuable behind to do the killing for you.

Depends on the nature of your adventuring. A Rogue Trader's crew are there to be the crew of a starship. A Rogue Trader is there to explore and become ludicrously wealthy, powerful and famous.

Merely extraordinary fortune is achievable by cautious men. Ludicrous fortune takes risk and guile and cunning and the occasional bout of 'dynamic planning' (i.e. "make it up as you go along"). More pertinently, it isn't a simple matter of 'enter dungeon, kill and loot, repeat, leave dungeon'... this is something a whole lot grander.

An undiscovered world studded with aeons-old, pre-Imperial ruins of unknown origin looms large within your viewports. It promises treasures unimaginable in ancient technology, forgotten relics and suchlike. A thousand men with autoguns could be sent down there... but they'd not know what they're looking for and could well either die pointlessly or worse, break something valuable and important. The group's Explorator, meanwhile, is extremely knowledgeable (moreso than all of his subordinates; he wouldn't be in charge if he didn't know more than they did) and likely to be the only one capable of unlocking the secrets of the ruins. The Arch-Militant is the best combatant available, so it stands to reason that he goes too, for security reasons. An Astropath is a useful thing to take, both for another viewpoint on investigation and exploration (psykers are useful for those things) and to call for help in an emergency...

...and it goes on. Everyone has a reason to be there. In many parts of Imperial society, those at the top are there because they're the best at what they do, rather than because they're really good at delegating and paperwork (except in the Administratum, because 'delegating and paperwork' is what they do). By merit of being the best at what you do, it means that everyone else is inferior to you at that particular range of tasks, and consequently your personal presence represents the best chance of success.

The objective isn't "kill things and take their stuff", at least not on so petty a scale. Killing things, really, is secondary, more a requirement for survival than a goal (and when it is a goal, then bringing along lots of extra men and guns is a good idea anyway). If you want to bring along a couple of companies of armsmen as cannon-fodder, feel free...

Ruskendrul said:

5) Looting and scavange looses its charm. He had WHAT!? A plasma pistol, I dont care if its pretty much out of ammo and dented beyond repair, its mine. My own...

Surely that's deliberate. A Rogue Trader, or anyone that wealthy, shouldn't be stripping corpses for pocket change or firearms...

Ruskendrul said:

snip

Congratulations, your group has entirely missed the point of Rogue Trader. Dark Heresy is supposed to be a scramble for survival in the grim darkness of the far future, while Rogue Trader is the flipside of the coin. Sure, you could solve all of your problems by throwing enough men at it, but when that regiment is slain to a man by the Yu'Vath Bone Warden you set them to destroy, you're going to face upkeep checks, a possible loss of that resource entirely. If I were GMing a game like that, the IG commander who leased you his men would be pretty damned leary of granting you more to feed into a meatgrinder.

Also while most PC will out fit themselves with power armor and bolters this really isn't a major issue.

1)Hellguns and the like still go through power armor pretty easily. The strength bonus is nice, but not game changing.

2)PCs will be able to get power armor but best quality is hard to find, and getting it may require taking out the guy wearing it or impressing a mjor tech priest faction.

3)You can't use profit factor to get one of a kind Xenos artifacts that no one has ever found before.

4)The battery issues with power armor are a major issue.